Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 3)

[TheCrew]

I don't know how anyone can defend Kotsay after this game. Yes he walked twice and hit a HR but one walk was negated by being doubled off. And not catching that bloop led to 3 more runs that inning. Defense matters just as much as offense. If there were 2 outs and Kotsay let a bloop like that fall, leading to say 6 more runs, would you still say it's the pitcher's fault? No, it would be Kotsay's. It's basically the same as an error. If your terrible play on defense leads to more runs than you create on offense, then you probably shouldn't be playing that position.

How was it negated? Did Braun and Fielder get at bats with him on base? Did he not move up to 2nd on a fly ball from Braun........... amazing that a guy who has "no speed" could do that.

 

The point is, with the bloop - there was NOBODY out, if it's caught there is 1 out. Why are some of you acting as if that was the 3rd out of the inning? Did Kotsay walk the next 2 batters? Hart's catch was easier imo, ball hung up there and he didn't give max effort to get there in time.

 

Some of you need to go back and watch the play itself: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/....jsp?content_id=19888335

 

I don't think it's a given Morgan gets there - guy hasn't been playing good D lately. Where is the criticism on Braun for letting it get by him after it landed......... that could have prevented a run.

[TheCrew]

He got on base in front of Braun/Fielder - he did his job, they didn't. I wasn't thrilled when I saw the lineup card, but 2 walks and a HR - tough to argue with that.

 

Brewers scored 2 runs without Kotsay tonight....... barring extreme luck or Plush just knocking out Alberta at first if he would have gotten on base...... the outcome of this game would have likely been the same if Gomez/Morgan started.

Nobody is complaining about Kotsay being in the lineup, or even hitting second. They're literally all complaining about him being in center field. I wish you'd address that if you're going to defend Roenicke so vehemently.

I've addressed it multiple times - there is one play in question with his defense that you could directly pin a run on. (although I'll say it again, Braun backs him up properly - it may have prevented the run)

 

Kinda funny that the best Brewers bats last night were Kotsay and Betancourt.

[TheCrew]

Where is the criticism on Yo for only striking out 2 and walking 5?

 

How about Hart/Braun/Weeks/Fielder going a combined 2 for 14?

 

I guess Kotsay missing the bloop to left-center is the cause of that as well?

[PrinceEatMeat]

Where is the criticism on Yo for only striking out 2 and walking 5?

 

How about Hart/Braun/Weeks/Fielder going a combined 2 for 14?

 

I guess Kotsay missing the bloop to left-center is the cause of that as well?

The criticism is on Roenicke for starting Kotsay. If that catch is made, the Cardinals score only one run in the first, and even without the homer by Kotsay we probably win 2-1. None of that other stuff would matter. That was the biggest play of the game. Hurt Yo, and took us out of the game momentum wise.

[Raw Biz]

I don't know how anyone can defend Kotsay after this game. Yes he walked twice and hit a HR but one walk was negated by being doubled off. And not catching that bloop led to 3 more runs that inning. Defense matters just as much as offense. If there were 2 outs and Kotsay let a bloop like that fall, leading to say 6 more runs, would you still say it's the pitcher's fault? No, it would be Kotsay's. It's basically the same as an error. If your terrible play on defense leads to more runs than you create on offense, then you probably shouldn't be playing that position.

How was it negated? Did Braun and Fielder get at bats with him on base? Did he not move up to 2nd on a fly ball from Braun........... amazing that a guy who has "no speed" could do that.

 

The point is, with the bloop - there was NOBODY out, if it's caught there is 1 out. Why are some of you acting as if that was the 3rd out of the inning? Did Kotsay walk the next 2 batters? Hart's catch was easier imo, ball hung up there and he didn't give max effort to get there in time.

 

Some of you need to go back and watch the play itself: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/....jsp?content_id=19888335

 

I don't think it's a given Morgan gets there - guy hasn't been playing good D lately. Where is the criticism on Braun for letting it get by him after it landed......... that could have prevented a run.

It's negated because he made an out on the basepaths. And it's not like he was thrown out trying to score from 2nd on a single. He was doubled off on a ball that was hit almost directly at the CF. So yes that walk is negated.

And the point is, if that ball is caught, there is 1 out. Then Pujols double which scores 1 run, then 2 walks, then a double play and Yo gets out of it. Obviously everything isn't going to happen exactly the same but you get the point. Kotsay should never have been in CF in a position in which he could hurt the team. It seems like you are the only one defending Kotsay/Roenicke here. As others have said, we weren't really caring about his offense. It's his defense that killed them. How can you defend that?

 

[topper09er]

Also I see no criticism for pitching to Pujols with 1st open in the 1st inning. How many hits does it take for RRR to pitch around Pujols? Apparently this was finally answered in the 4th inning: 7

[stoutdude04]

How was it negated? Did Braun and Fielder get at bats with him on base? Did he not move up to 2nd on a fly ball from Braun........... amazing that a guy who has "no speed" could do that.

His speed is faster then the arm of a DH. Point taken.

[Oxy]

Where is the criticism on Yo for only striking out 2 and walking 5?

 

How about Hart/Braun/Weeks/Fielder going a combined 2 for 14?

 

I guess Kotsay missing the bloop to left-center is the cause of that as well?

The point is that starting Kotsay in CF was not only a questionable decision to start with, it was a downright horrible decision to start with. All of the those other things that you mentioned sucked, but they didn't suck as a result of a poor managerial decision. They were unavoidable, unlike Kotsay's gaffe(s). The criticism here is on Roenicke, not Kotsay. This isn't a 20/20 hindsight sort of criticism, either. The decision was bad right off the bat, and 99% of the posters here knew that it was bad before the game even started--just look at the board and IGT. You are trying to play the devil's advocate here, but it's just not working at all.

[TheCrew]

The criticism is on Roenicke for starting Kotsay. If that catch is made, the Cardinals score only one run in the first, and even without the homer by Kotsay we probably win 2-1. None of that other stuff would matter. That was the biggest play of the game. Hurt Yo, and took us out of the game momentum wise.

Sorry, but if the 2nd batter of the game takes you out of the game.......... if the team is really that weak, they don't belong here then.

[TheCrew]

The point is that starting Kotsay in CF was not only a questionable decision to start with, it was a downright horrible decision to start with. All of the those other things that you mentioned sucked, but they didn't suck as a result of a poor managerial decision. They were unavoidable, unlike Kotsay's gaffe(s). The criticism here is on Roenicke, not Kotsay. This isn't a 20/20 hindsight sort of criticism, either. The decision was bad right off the bat, and 99% of the posters here knew that it was bad before the game even started--just look at the board and IGT. You are trying to play the devil's advocate here, but it's just not working at all.

Hey, I hated it when I saw the lineup card as well. Then he delivered at the plate.

 

Go watch the bloop and look at Braun as well - this was a bloop that some could even argue he might have been able to get to had he given max effort, there is no excuse for him not properly backing up Kotsay though. That could have prevented a run - love how this gets overlooked though.

 

Still can't escape the fact that Kotsay delivered 1 of the 3 Brewers runs on his own and he also got on base 2 times in front of Braun and Fielder - they didn't deliver.

 

Trying to make Kotsay the scapegoat for the loss is a complete joke.

 

Edit: Making RR the scapegoat - for starting Kotsay - is also a complete joke. Give criticism where it's do - the Brewers big boys didn't perform last night.

[BuckyBrewer61]

"Gomez is a fabulous centerfielder, but you also have to look at trying to score runs and trying to figure your offense and where you slot guys," Roenicke said. "When we take Nyjer out, sometimes it's hard to slot that guy in the second spot.

 

This is typical Ron, and the reason I think assembling a lineup is his most glaring weakness. You are aware that when someone comes out of the lineup, you can move around batters...right, Ron? You know that 3B of yours that's hit the ball hard in 50% of his AB's this postseason? He's allowed to bat 2nd too...

 

Oh, and all this talk of needing to maximize runs with Carpenter on the mound...does minimizing runs against not matter in a low scoring game?

 

Give Ron credit for maintaining a loose, upbeat clubhouse, that goes a longer way than I probably give him credit for, but some of his lineup decisions drive me up the wall.

[DougJones43]

The criticism is on Roenicke for starting Kotsay. If that catch is made, the Cardinals score only one run in the first, and even without the homer by Kotsay we probably win 2-1. None of that other stuff would matter. That was the biggest play of the game. Hurt Yo, and took us out of the game momentum wise.

Sorry, but if the 2nd batter of the game takes you out of the game.......... if the team is really that weak, they don't belong here then.

I don't think you fully appreciate the importance of every out in a playoff game, especially when all of the opposing team's runs came in a single inning.

[FVBrewerFan]

Tonight's line-up will be very telling. If RR really believes in what he said and did yesterday, then shouldn't Kotsay be in CF again tonight? What has changed since yesterday, using his own reasons for the decision?

[PrinceEatMeat]

The criticism is on Roenicke for starting Kotsay. If that catch is made, the Cardinals score only one run in the first, and even without the homer by Kotsay we probably win 2-1. None of that other stuff would matter. That was the biggest play of the game. Hurt Yo, and took us out of the game momentum wise.

Sorry, but if the 2nd batter of the game takes you out of the game.......... if the team is really that weak, they don't belong here then.

I don't think you fully appreciate the importance of every out in a playoff game, especially when all of the opposing team's runs came in a single inning.

Exactly, it's a different story if the Cards had mustered anything at all on offense the rest of the game, but that didn't happen.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Tonight's line-up will be very telling. If RR really believes in what he said and did yesterday, then shouldn't Kotsay be in CF again tonight? What has changed since yesterday, using his own reasons for the decision?

That's a great point. I'm sure he'll back off though and not start Kotsay in CF. Kotsay in RF is a possibility though. That makes a lot more sense to begin with if he wants his bat in there and still have good D in CF.

[Raw Biz]

The point is that starting Kotsay in CF was not only a questionable decision to start with, it was a downright horrible decision to start with. All of the those other things that you mentioned sucked, but they didn't suck as a result of a poor managerial decision. They were unavoidable, unlike Kotsay's gaffe(s). The criticism here is on Roenicke, not Kotsay. This isn't a 20/20 hindsight sort of criticism, either. The decision was bad right off the bat, and 99% of the posters here knew that it was bad before the game even started--just look at the board and IGT. You are trying to play the devil's advocate here, but it's just not working at all.

Hey, I hated it when I saw the lineup card as well. Then he delivered at the plate.

 

Go watch the bloop and look at Braun as well - this was a bloop that some could even argue he might have been able to get to had he given max effort, there is no excuse for him not properly backing up Kotsay though. That could have prevented a run - love how this gets overlooked though.

 

Still can't escape the fact that Kotsay delivered 1 of the 3 Brewers runs on his own and he also got on base 2 times in front of Braun and Fielder - they didn't deliver.

 

Trying to make Kotsay the scapegoat for the loss is a complete joke.

 

Edit: Making RR the scapegoat - for starting Kotsay - is also a complete joke. Give criticism where it's do - the Brewers big boys didn't perform last night.

This is the kind of crap that pisses me off. When Braun or Prince have an off day, some people blame them for the loss. Yes they are the best players on the team but players can't go 3-4 every night. They are allowed to have a bad game. They shouldn't be expected to dominate every game. Same thing with Yo. He's been our best pitcher for the past month and he had a rough 1st inning (not helped by defense) but still managed to not give up any more after that.

Sure Kotsay contributed with a home run. Great. But what you seem unable to grasp is we're not worried about his offense. His defense is what killed them. And I don't care if it's the 1st out or the last out, he didn't make a play that every other one of our 3 other CF makes. And yes I watched the play. Kotsay didn't have the speed to close the gap. He came kind of close by diving so if that's the case, since Morgan/Gomez/Hairston all are faster than Kotsay, all should make that play standing up.

 

[markedman5]

Bauman pretty much nails it.....

 

 

http://milwaukee.brewers....2&vkey=news_mil&c_id=mil

[1992casey]

Anyone could have made Kotsay's baserunning mistake. Most of the time, nobody makes it.

 

However, the ball that Mark failed to catch in the first inning would have been caught by either either Morgan or Gomez. It wasn't Kotsay's fault; he's just not a good center fielder, and he has no business playing there unless both Morgan and Gomez become unavailable.

[monty57]

Also I see no criticism for pitching to Pujols with 1st open in the 1st inning. How many hits does it take for RRR to pitch around Pujols? Apparently this was finally answered in the 4th inning: 7

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me seven times and I might finally wake up and realize I'm being a fool.

 

[MJLiverock]

My friend from STL was shocked that Kotsay started in CF, he doesn't even watch the Brewers that often and he couldn't believe RR put him CF when Gomez and Morgan were available. He also noted that if Kotsay needed to get in the lineup wouldn't Hart make sense as the replacement to at least keep some semblance of defense out there?

 

As has been mentioned Kotsay did fine at the plate but going into the game the only thing that was a sure thing is that Gomez or Morgan are better defenders, with Gomez being miles better than Kotsay. Kotsay's hitting is not mile better than either player. Gomez at least could hit a nubber and beat it out or get lucky and connect and hit one out a la Kotsay who hasn't shown much power in recent years. But the one absolute was the defensive ability and for whatever reason RR decided it didn't matter.

[TheCrew]

This is the kind of crap that pisses me off. When Braun or Prince have an off day, some people blame them for the loss. Yes they are the best players on the team but players can't go 3-4 every night. They are allowed to have a bad game. They shouldn't be expected to dominate every game. Same thing with Yo. He's been our best pitcher for the past month and he had a rough 1st inning (not helped by defense) but still managed to not give up any more after that.

Sure Kotsay contributed with a home run. Great. But what you seem unable to grasp is we're not worried about his offense. His defense is what killed them. And I don't care if it's the 1st out or the last out, he didn't make a play that every other one of our 3 other CF makes. And yes I watched the play. Kotsay didn't have the speed to close the gap. He came kind of close by diving so if that's the case, since Morgan/Gomez/Hairston all are faster than Kotsay, all should make that play standing up.

 

They didn't need to go 3-4, but the criticism is deserved across the board. For example Braun's lack of an effort of backing up Kotsay on that play - you can't deny that alone could have prevented a run. He deserveds JUST as much criticism as Kotsay, if not more since his play - or lack of - is something your taught to do from little league on.

 

People need to go watch the play again, it's no given that Morgan gets there with the way he has been misjudging balls lately and that ball was a blooper to left center - people are acting like it was a routine fly.

 

I'm not trying to rag on Prince/Braun/Yo - we aren't here without them - the point I'm making, is with the way the big boys played last night, does anyone really think with Morgan or Gomez playing the Brewers win that game? I just don't see it...... what they would have gained on defense would have been most likely lost on offense. Unless you truly believe that Kotsay is at fault for all 4 runs.......... but I just don't buy that logic.

[SconnieKid]

Braun had 4 PAs and was on twice right? Thats a TERRIBLE night? Crikey you guys are spoiled.

 

I really believe that with Gomez in CF they would have won last night. I think Albert's double hung in the air for ages and would have been caught. I am fairly confident I could have caught Jay's pop up.

 

And people need to stop giving him credit for getting on base in the 1st after his blunder at 2nd. Everyone knew that ball was going to be caught except him. Maybe he thought pop outs to CF were really tough for other major leaguers too.

 

Almost every GM and Mgr in the bigs has undergone a substantial shift in thought around defense. No longer do people put terrible defenders in key spots (CF, SS, etc). Except RR.

[Baldkin]

This is the kind of crap that pisses me off. When Braun or Prince have an off day, some people blame them for the loss. Yes they are the best players on the team but players can't go 3-4 every night. They are allowed to have a bad game. They shouldn't be expected to dominate every game. Same thing with Yo. He's been our best pitcher for the past month and he had a rough 1st inning (not helped by defense) but still managed to not give up any more after that.

Sure Kotsay contributed with a home run. Great. But what you seem unable to grasp is we're not worried about his offense. His defense is what killed them. And I don't care if it's the 1st out or the last out, he didn't make a play that every other one of our 3 other CF makes. And yes I watched the play. Kotsay didn't have the speed to close the gap. He came kind of close by diving so if that's the case, since Morgan/Gomez/Hairston all are faster than Kotsay, all should make that play standing up.

 

They didn't need to go 3-4, but the criticism is deserved across the board. For example Braun's lack of an effort of backing up Kotsay on that play - you can't deny that alone could have prevented a run. He deserveds JUST as much criticism as Kotsay, if not more since his play - or lack of - is something your taught to do from little league on.

 

People need to go watch the play again, it's no given that Morgan gets there with the way he has been misjudging balls lately and that ball was a blooper to left center - people are acting like it was a routine fly.

 

I'm not trying to rag on Prince/Braun/Yo - we aren't here without them - the point I'm making, is with the way the big boys played last night, does anyone really think with Morgan or Gomez playing the Brewers win that game? I just don't see it...... what they would have gained on defense would have been most likely lost on offense. Unless you truly believe that Kotsay is at fault for all 4 runs.......... but I just don't buy that logic.

Lets try this once more. I/We are not complaining that Kotsay did not make the play or try his best. I/We are complaining about the DECISION to play Kotsay in CF in the first place. The managers job is to put the team in the best position to win, RRR did NOT do that last night.

 

As for Morgan: He has had 3 problems judging balls recently that I have seen, all of them on things hit directly at him.... I have never seen him have a problem judging a ball hit to either side of him.

[TheCrew]

Lets try this once more. I/We are not complaining that Kotsay did not make the play or try his best. I/We are complaining about the DECISION to play Kotsay in CF in the first place. The managers job is to put the team in the best position to win, RRR did NOT do that last night.

 

As for Morgan: He has had 3 problems judging balls recently that I have seen, all of them on things hit directly at him.... I have never seen him have a problem judging a ball hit to either side of him.

Let's, go watch the video: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/....jsp?content_id=19888335

 

Look at where Furcal is when the ball gets by Braun. He deserves just as much criticism for the run scoring. Not to mention, this may have also held Jay at 1st......

[Oxy]

Lets try this once more. I/We are not complaining that Kotsay did not make the play or try his best. I/We are complaining about the DECISION to play Kotsay in CF in the first place. The managers job is to put the team in the best position to win, RRR did NOT do that last night.

 

As for Morgan: He has had 3 problems judging balls recently that I have seen, all of them on things hit directly at him.... I have never seen him have a problem judging a ball hit to either side of him.

Let's, go watch the video: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/....jsp?content_id=19888335

 

Look at where Furcal is when the ball gets by Braun. He deserves just as much criticism for the run scoring. Not to mention, this may have also held Jay at 1st......

You are just trolling now. Was there ever a doubt as to whether Braun should be playing left field last night?