Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 3)

[MNBrew]

If we watched every game as closely & with as much scrutiny as we watch the Brewers, TLB, we'd all find about every other manager equally "inept" or "idiotic" (quotation marks to denote stated opinions by others, not me) based on the same accusations that are tossed out here on Roenicke.

 

The crappy play in the 4 playoff losses to date is rife with so much blame to go toward almost all the Brewers who've taken the field in these games. Roenicke's the easy target, but he's not the problem.

 

You can blame Kotsay's slower speed for the dropped ball & baserunning out. But Roenicke played him for his bat, which hit the solo HR and got 2 walks. Despite his missed plays, Kotsay's overall play tonight still did more to give the Brewers a chance to win than most anyone else in the lineup did.

 

If Roenicke puts Kotsay in RF, he doesn't come close to making the play Hart should've made but didn't. Which field he played in still was almost immaterial.

 

On a side note, I do see Braun's lack of running in most of the recent games as a concession by Roenicke toward not making unnecessary outs on the bases (Braun & Gomez w/ SBs in Gm 4 vs. AZ, & Gomez w/ the SB prior to Nyjer's GW hit in Gm 5 are the ONLY SB attempts in 8 playoff games thus far). No one seems to be talking about that adjustment to the playoffs. Roenicke doesn't have some of the tools at his disposal that he's had most of the year, so he's stuck trying to make the best of a less-than-ideal situation offensively. And when the offense isn't clicking (like this), AND the pitchers keep digging bad holes, Roenicke's even more limited in his options.

[danzig6767]

I think that the Kotsay thing is a push. On the blooper, my guess is that he was playing extremely deep on wet grass. Both Morgan and Gomez (though they would have probably caught that one) have misplayed balls in center recently. As for the double, I don't think anyone is getting to that. Kotsay's homer and walks evened things out. In hindsight, Gomez probably would have been the better play in center, because Nyjer has looked 'off' both at the plate and in the field as of late.

People aren't only talking about the end results.

 

First of all it wasn't raining in the first inning and Kotsay was playing extremely deep for an obvious reason, he has very very below average range for a centerfielder so Roenicke had little choice but to play Kotsay really deep. It not only lead to a free double and a run scoring, it gave the Cardinals an extra out in the inning which then didn't turn the Molina DP grounder into an inning ending play. It easily could have cost the Brewers three runs if the inning would have played out the same.

 

Yea, Kotsay hit a homer, but one of his two walks were wasted by his baserunning blunder. Plus, had say Gomez been in CF, he possibly could have done something at the plate to contribute to a run as Kotsay did.

 

Lastly, it's not just blaming the end results of Kotsay being in there which has people so angry. It's just as much or more that Roenicke would be so reckless as to put in CF a guy who can't move at all anymore. It's was painful and infuriating for me watching him try to run with those short choppy steps. Hell, Roenicke was lucky that Kotsay only had one chance to butcher an out hit in his area because had St. Louis hit more balls in his direction or the gaps that Kotsay's running in mud speed failed to get to, RR would have even more mud on his face.

[TheCrew]

He got on base in front of Braun/Fielder - he did his job, they didn't. I wasn't thrilled when I saw the lineup card, but 2 walks and a HR - tough to argue with that.

 

Brewers scored 2 runs without Kotsay tonight....... barring extreme luck or Plush just knocking out Alberta at first if he would have gotten on base...... the outcome of this game would have likely been the same if Gomez/Morgan started.

[TheCrew]

"I don't have a lot of experience, but I've experienced a lot"

 

Anyone else feel like ripping that banner down, Office Space-style right now?

 

I'm not sure if I hate Roenicke, or just hate how stupid he can be.

Really? Cherry picking a quote from a Dec 2010 interview is what it's coming to now?

[adambr2]

Ron, next time you want to put Casey McGehee up in the 9th against Motte down 1 with 2 outs, I have an alternative suggestion.

 

You could have one of your batboys attach a clean white towel to a stick. Have him hand it to you. Proceed with it out to the infield, directly face the crew chief, and wave it in the air vigorously.

 

It will have the same result and Casey will be spared the embarrassment.

[TooLiveBrew]

Really? Cherry picking a quote from a Dec 2010 interview is what it's coming to now?

Sorry, you're right. I should have just kept the focus on how stupid it was to play Kotsay in CF tonight.

[TheCrew]

Sorry, you're right. I should have just kept the focus on how stupid it was to play Kotsay in CF tonight.

Anyone for the Brewers have a better night offensively?

 

Only criticism the guy deserves imo is rolling out Narvy, but he didn't throw many pitches - Marcum has been brutal lately, he better be on a damn short leash next time out.

[adambr2]

Sorry, you're right. I should have just kept the focus on how stupid it was to play Kotsay in CF tonight.

Anyone for the Brewers have a better night offensively?

 

Only criticism the guy deserves imo is rolling out Narvy, but he didn't throw many pitches - Marcum has been brutal lately, he better be on a damn short leash next time out.

Was he responsible for 4 runs offensively? Because that's what it would have taken to make up for the 4 runs he cost defensively.

 

[danzig6767]

The crappy play in the 4 playoff losses to date is rife with so much blame to go toward almost all the Brewers who've taken the field in these games. Roenicke's the easy target, but he's not the problem..

Nobody is blaming Roenicke for the four playoff losses or that nobody else contributed to the loss tonight. The starting pitching has been a big problem in the playoffs so far and Weeks especially has been failing to come through with runners on base. Just because all of that is true, it doesn't mean that fans have no reason to be very frustrated by his decision to insert a guy into the lineup at a very vital defensive position even though Kotsay doesn't just have below average range, i question if he could beat Lucroy in a footrace at his current age.

 

If Roenicke puts Kotsay in RF, he doesn't come close to making the play

Hart should've made but didn't. Which field he played in still was

almost immaterial.

 

You can't be serious. There is a reason that certain positions on the diamond are considered more important defensively, because some are more important to have a quality defender. That's why the Cardinals play Berkman in RF and never in CF. A centerfielder needs to be able to cover much more ground and when a CF has zero range as is the case with Kotsay, the results can be disastrous. A really good CF can take away a run to multiple runs from an offense during a game, a terrible CF can contribute to a run to multiple more runs scoring. If Gomez or Plush is out there they get to that blooper with ease and the Molina DP ball ends the inning with St. Louis up 1-0, Hart wouldn't even have been able to butcher the Freese fly ball because the inning would already have ended. Beyond that, i can't imagine another manager starting a guy in CF that runs more like a catcher than a centerfielder. I opens the door to a potential defensive disaster or disasters where a run to multiple runs end up scoring that shouldn't have if a competent defender was in CF.

[MNBrew]

If Gomez or Plush is out there they get to that blooper with ease and

the Molina DP ball ends the inning with St. Louis up 1-0, Hart wouldn't

even have been able to butcher the Freese fly ball because the inning

would already have ended.

 

I kept thinking of that after I posted the comment. Point taken. Still, look, I was never saying playing Kotsay in CF was a good decision. The inning may have turned out quite differently with either speedy guy in CF and Kotsay in RF. But the way Gallardo was pitching, I still think nothing was a given, especially since he was having the worst time hitting locations that a) were in the strike zone and b) not where the sickly hot Cardinals hitters could keep pounding the ball.

 

(side note: That was a great pitch that Pujols hit the double on in the 1st. Albert's hotter than blazes and most mortals don't make good contact on that pitch, let alone hit it hard, and even more so pulling it for a ground rule double to left center. Pujols won't do much other than foul that pitch off most of the time. But right now he's on an incredible tear. . . . . That 2B reminded me an awful lot of a low-outside fastball I watched Jaha mash for a HR to left center at the Metrodome about 10 rows below my seats. That was amazing.)

[TheCrew]

Was he responsible for 4 runs offensively? Because that's what it would have taken to make up for the 4 runs he cost defensively.

What's next - Kotsay a terrorist too?

 

How about Gallardo walking Holliday and Berkman on 10 pitches to load the bases? Then Hart missing an easier catch then Kotsay's - he makes that catch, they still get out of the inning with only 1 run scored. Hart's play had a greater impact and was probably the easier catch of the two.

[danzig6767]

If Gomez or Plush is out there they get to that blooper with ease and

the Molina DP ball ends the inning with St. Louis up 1-0, Hart wouldn't

even have been able to butcher the Freese fly ball because the inning

would already have ended.

 

I kept thinking of that after I posted the comment. Point taken. Still, look, I was never saying playing Kotsay in CF was a good decision. The inning may have turned out quite differently with either speedy guy in CF and Kotsay in RF. But the way Gallardo was pitching, I still think nothing was a given, especially since he was having the worst time hitting locations that a) were in the strike zone and b) not where the sickly hot Cardinals hitters could keep pounding the ball.

He'll never admit it if true, but i wouldn't doubt if Yo got rattled some by how that 1st inning started out. There is a leadoff single, Furcal advances to second, and then that bloop falls instead of being an out. Pujols comes up and rips the double into the gap, bam it's already 2-0 only three batters in. The crowd is rocking and nobody is out, i wonder if it contributed some to the back to back walks that followed? Gallardo did get the big DP grounder though and Hart followed by failing yet again to make a play on a catchable ball.

 

FWIW, i'm by no means trying to say for sure that the Brewers win if a competent defensive CF had been in the game instead. Even if that inning had ended 1-0 instead of 4-0, we can't know for sure how exactly the rest of the game would have played out. Gomez in center would have altered the lineup that was out there tonight. If Morgan was in there, we have no idea what he'd have done at the plate to alter what happened tonight. A slight Brewers lead instead of deficit could have altered moves each manager actually made in the game tonight.

 

My only point is it was Game 3 of series to determine which team gets to the World Series, not a random game in July. To put such a defensive liability in CF who hasn't started there in ages for good reason based on an 11 at bat sample vs Carpenter, i still find it shocking. Would LaRussa have ever considered starting a terrible defensive CF tonight in place of Jay because say that 5th outfielder had been 4-11 vs Gallardo while Jay had been 2-13? Maybe in a random game in July he would, no way in hell in a game of this magnitude.

[Raw Biz]

Was he responsible for 4 runs offensively? Because that's what it would have taken to make up for the 4 runs he cost defensively.

What's next - Kotsay a terrorist too?

 

How about Gallardo walking Holliday and Berkman on 10 pitches to load the bases? Then Hart missing an easier catch then Kotsay's - he makes that catch, they still get out of the inning with only 1 run scored. Hart's play had a greater impact and was probably the easier catch of the two.

I don't know how anyone can defend Kotsay after this game. Yes he walked twice and hit a HR but one walk was negated by being doubled off. And not catching that bloop led to 3 more runs that inning. Defense matters just as much as offense. If there were 2 outs and Kotsay let a bloop like that fall, leading to say 6 more runs, would you still say it's the pitcher's fault? No, it would be Kotsay's. It's basically the same as an error. If your terrible play on defense leads to more runs than you create on offense, then you probably shouldn't be playing that position.

edit: And there's no way Hart's play was the easier catch. Yeah it clanked off his glove and he should've caught it but it was a line drive backwards toward the gap. It might look like Kotsay's was tougher because he dove but that's because he has no range whatsoever and made it look a lot harder than it should have been. Any normal CF makes that catch easily.

 

[Team Canada]

Nice to see someone calling Ron on this one:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/a...il&partnerId=rss_mil

 

"None of what happened on this play is Mark Kotsay's fault. The primary responsibility for what happened lies with the manager, who filled out his lineup with a center fielder who would be least likely to cover enough ground to make this play.

 

You don't win like this in the postseason. This is not a series in June against the Cubs or the Astros. Roenicke had said before this game that, with Gallardo going against Cardinals ace Chris Carpenter, you could reasonably expect a close game.

 

If that's what you expect, you shouldn't sacrifice defense for offense. It is true that Kotsay eventually had a solo home run and two walks in four plate appearances. But his inability to catch that ball in the first inning outweighed the offensive contribution.

 

Ron Roenicke has been one of the major reasons that the 2011 Milwaukee Brewers have succeeded in winning a division, compiling the best regular-season record in the history of the franchise, winning the franchise's first postseason series in 29 years. He's a fine fellow. He's an ideal manager for a Milwaukee team, a sincerely modest man who cares far more about the collective good than his own ego.

 

But Wednesday night, Roenicke's decision to start Mark Kotsay in center field was one of the major reasons that the Brewers lost Game 3 of the 2011 NLCS and fell behind the Cardinals in this series."

 

 

From TH's blog post:

 

"Gomez is a fabulous centerfielder, but you also have to look at trying to score runs and trying to figure your offense and where you slot guys," Roenicke said. "When we take Nyjer out, sometimes it's hard to slot that guy in the second spot.

 

"So there are questions that it's easy to look afterwards and say Gomez would have caught it. But Gomez, I didn't think he was an option for today's game. I like him out there any time I can get him out there, but I didn't think that was a good choice today."

 

 

So many problems with that quote...

[JohnBriggs12]

I completely agree with the consensus that Kotsay had no business in CF. You want Kotsay in the lineup? Start him in RF instead of Hart who looks lost both at the plate and in the field.

 

Yo is not a ground ball pitcher. Oh he'll get some, but mostly, he's a strikeout, flyball guy. He needs good outfield defense. They'd have been better off with Braun in CF. Kotsay's solo HR didn't make up for not getting to a ball virtually every CF in the league catches with ease.

 

LaRussa is running rings around Roenicke in this series. It would be almost laughable if it weren't so agnozing to Brewer fans who waited so long to get in this position.

[Oldcity]

He got on base in front of Braun/Fielder - he did his job, they didn't. I wasn't thrilled when I saw the lineup card, but 2 walks and a HR - tough to argue with that.

 

Brewers scored 2 runs without Kotsay tonight....... barring extreme luck or Plush just knocking out Alberta at first if he would have gotten on base...... the outcome of this game would have likely been the same if Gomez/Morgan started.

Nobody is complaining about Kotsay being in the lineup, or even hitting second. They're literally all complaining about him being in center field. I wish you'd address that if you're going to defend Roenicke so vehemently.

[JohnBriggs12]

He got on base in front of Braun/Fielder - he did his job, they didn't. I wasn't thrilled when I saw the lineup card, but 2 walks and a HR - tough to argue with that.

 

Brewers scored 2 runs without Kotsay tonight....... barring extreme luck or Plush just knocking out Alberta at first if he would have gotten on base...... the outcome of this game would have likely been the same if Gomez/Morgan started.

Nobody is complaining about Kotsay being in the lineup, or even hitting second. They're literally all complaining about him being in center field. I wish you'd address that if you're going to defend Roenicke so vehemently.

Correct. Hart was 0 for 4 and didn't hit a ball (even foul) hard all night, and misplayed a fly ball into a double. If you feel the need to get Kotsay in there, that's where you put him. We don't know that Morgan or Gomez wouldn't have had even more offensive impact than Kotsay because neither was in there. Roenicke telling us they wouldn't doesn't make it so. We do know that either Morgan or Gomez easily catch the ball Kotsay dove for and missed, and quite possibly, Gomez even runs down the Pujols double too. We also know that Morgan or Gomez couldn't possibly have done worse at the plate than what Hart did.

[fondybrewfan]

Gomez would have gotten that ball for sure; Morgan has looked pretty inept lately in CF taking some horrible routes. I am not so sure Morgan would have caught it either (Although obviously he would have had a better chance).

 

Kotsay obviously produced offensively but also hurt us in CF in the 1st inning and also cost us on the basepaths in the 1st inning with quite possibly the most unathletic slide I have ever seen a big leaguer make. He kind of made up for his ineptitude later in the game but the damage has been done.

 

I am not going to completely say the loss last night was because of RR; only that his lineup decision in this case had a very meaningful effect on the game. Honestly Morgan has been horrible for almost the entire postseason; I didn't mind seeing Kotsay in there from an offensive standpoint. It was just unfortunate that the game was decided in the very first inning on a ball that Kotsay just wasn't fast enough to get to. A perfectly placed hit if you will.

[chuckiehacks]

Plenty of blame to go around, so I guess I'll pile on. I've been saying for two months that this team is going to get burned by not having a power bat on the bench. Down 1 in the 9th and we have to debate between McGehee and Kottaras. We couldn't have gone after Giambi, Thome, Branyan, etc.? And yes, I realize they can't do much other than pinch hit, but I'm pretty sure we could swap out Taylor Green's roster spot without losing anything.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Every time RRR makes a dumb decision, 100 puppies die.

[NievesNoNO]

Every time RRR makes a dumb decision, 100 puppies die.

 

It should've been 101, but the 1 that lived proved there is still hope. Get the next one boys!!

[StearnsFTW]

Every time RRR makes a dumb decision, 100 puppies die.

Are there any puppies left?

 

Now Ron's responsible for the extinction of domestic dogs. Just when I thought this day couldn't get any worse.

[Rob]

I was disappointed that Kotsay started last night but Ron has done a great job this year. I shouldn't be complaining about that decision-he's been perfect for the team and I hope he pulls the right strings tonight.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Just imagine for a moment that Joe Girardi made that call in a Yankees/Red Sox ALCS...the NY press would have had a field day. There'd be a full page picture of Kotsay's face plant on the cover of the NY Post. RR is lucky to be in a small market this morning.

[chuckiehacks]

http://media.jsonline.com/images/650*415/mjs-brewers13t_-spt_-lynn_-2-brewers13b.jpg

 

Reverse Angle!

http://media.jsonline.com/images/650*468/mjs-brewers13g_-spt_-porter_-4-brewers13.jpg

 

Sad Kotsay http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif

http://media.jsonline.com/images/444*600/mjs-brewers13t_-spt_-lynn_-3-brewers13a.jpg