Yuniesky Betancourt: What value does he bring to the team? (part 2)

[PrinceEatMeat]

No, no, no ,no and again no. Counsell can't be the big half of a platoon.

I don't really have a problem with it in the short-term, because we all know he'll be better than Betancourt. Maybe not for the whole year, but if he can hold it down until the trade deadline that would be nice.

[cwolf2012]

"No, no, no ,no and again no. Counsell can't be the big half of a platoon. "

 

Why not? At this point, the Brewers have 3 SSs on the roster. If Counsell plays decently, great, keep starting him. If he fails, gets hurt, or breaks down, they still have 2 relatively viable options in Wilson and the Yunibomber.

 

Losing Counsell is not going to hurt the team much if it happens. If it allows the Brewers to win a game or so extra over the course of those starts, I'm all for it.

[JoeHova]

I just had to laugh when the announcers related last night that, according to management, Yuni "deserves" more of a chance. Sometimes all a person can do in the face of such absurdity is laugh. I mean, if they want to give him more of a chance, fine, it's their team and their jobs on the line. But how does Betancourt "deserve" anything from this team? A guy who's been on the team for only a few months, was forced on the team in a trade, has been terrible for years, can't hit, can't field, is being paid by Milwaukee at least 4 times what he is worth, and is known as a loafer who doesn't care. I really can't see how that adds up to "deserving" anything.

[NYChez]

We, as lifelong fans, "deserve" someone with a higher than .260 OBP with some range playing shortstop for the team we support.

[Invader3K]

Really shortstop should be a Counsell/Wilson platoon at this point. Betancourt should be sent down to AAA if he has any options left, or just DFAed. He doesn't show any signs of being competent at the plate while at least Counsell and Wilson seem to be having quality ABs.

[Mr Southpaw]

Trade for Omar Visquez and .....have a three way!

[Mr Southpaw]

... a three way platoon at shortstop.

[stalton]

Brewers officials say they are pleasantly surprised with Betancourt's defense but disappointed by his bat.

 

I didn't realize Yuni's D was worthy of being pleasantly surprised. I thought the Brewers got exactly what they expected with 0 range but darn good hands (most of the time)

[Invader3K]

I will admit I haven't found his defense to be as horrible as we were lead to believe. That said, he is still bad with the glove and almost an automatic out with the bat. He has earned minimal playing time and should be replaced if at all possible. I am sure Melvin knows this and will be scouring for trades, if he isn't all ready.

[paul253]

The team is a couple games out from having the best team in the league and the constant complaining is crazy

Does that mean we can't take a glaring weakness in our lineup and try to improve it? Bentancourt may as well just go up there, close his eyes, and swing. It couldn't be any worse than what he is

doing up there now.

He is not the ideal SS but with our pitching who cares.

 

I care when our offense can't muster more than a run or two and we lose 2-1 or 3-2 despite our starters having excellent outings. I care when we lose 7 games in a row while scoring a cool 7 total runs and getting shutout three times. I care when we need a rally started only to watch Bentancourt go up there and pop up the first pitch to the shortstop. Just because our pitching is doing well this season doesn't mean everything is perfect.

We will win with pitching and a very dangerous top half of the lineup

and be happy with what the bottom can give. Most teams would beg to

have our problems.

 

Unfortunately when you talk about pitching you also have to include the bullpen. For as many games as the starting pitching has won, the bullpen has lost quite a few as well. This is why you need guys who can hit too. You can't go up there expecting Narveson to throw 8 shutout innings every fifth day and you can expect every 1-0 lead to hold up. The Brewers have been about as dependent their #3 and #4 hitters as a team can be. Knock on wood but if Fielder and Braun cool off at the same time this may very well be a below .500 team.

[1992casey]

Every team has ++!#$* or two in the lineup.

 

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[gregmag]

I never can figure out the "We're very good, so no one should say anything about how we might improve" routine. I mean, I just don't get it. Number one, every team can get better, and unless you're completely running away from the pack you should be figuring out how to get better. Number two, it's a Brewers discussion forum. What are people supposed to do, start fifteen different threads about what a great hitter Prince Fielder is? I think everybody is enjoying the winning (well, maybe not xisxisxishttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif), but problems are interesting.

[topper09er]

I remember Bill James did a little write up in his Historical Abstract about how unlikely it is for a team to have above average players at every position and that in the history of baseball there has never been a team that had an above league average player at every position, and closest he could find was the 1941 Dodgers who lost the WS. We are not going to have every player be above average so its not like Betancourt is making us the worst team in the league.

 

As long as we don't have a thread here titled something like "What changes do we need to make to the rotation" I will happy to come back here occasionally and criticize Betancourt for being the worst, laziest and dumbest player in the league.

[rluzinski]

We are not going to have every player be above average so its not like Betancourt is making us the worst team in the league.

The issue with Betancourt has been the same before he even played an inning for the Brewers. He overall production projects to be SO bad that he's a marginal major league bench player, yet he was penciled in to start for the Brewers. Ironically, Betancourt has actually performed even worse than his projections suggested. In contrast, Gomez is below average but above replacement levell (almost completely because of his defense).

We aren't demanding above average at every position. I don't think even average at every position is a realistic expectation. But when there are minor leaguers and major league bench players that project to be better than your starting major league SS, there are problems.

[COBrewerfan]

I never can figure out the "We're very good, so no one should say anything about how we might improve" routine. I mean, I just don't get it. Number one, every team can get better, and unless you're completely running away from the pack you should be figuring out how to get better. Number two, it's a Brewers discussion forum. What are people supposed to do, start fifteen different threads about what a great hitter Prince Fielder is? I think everybody is enjoying the winning (well, maybe not xisxisxishttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif), but problems are interesting.

Ok I guess I didn't explain myself the way I wanted to. We have made trades to bring the pitching staff to a much higher level to go along with a really good offense. In doing this we have brought our current payroll and future money owed to a level where I do not think it is realistic to think we are adding any big piece. We may make a deal or two to slightly improve but our team is not getting a Reyes or another big name to fill out the team. I guess what I was saying was this is one of the best brewer teams ever and I the complaining is just a waste of time. Because we are not making that big addition so you should get used to this team because this is the team we have for this year.

 

I always refer back to the Giants last year winning the world series. They have comparable pitching to ours and their offense was way below what we have. So saying we cannot win anything with our current team is just wrong. If anything, I want them to add a bullpen piece more than anything.

 

Some people mention losing games 3-2 and 2-1. Welcome to reality. We could add Reyes or whomever else people desire and there will still be 2-1 games. All star games are 3-2. And that is because pitching always wins.

 

[topper09er]

The issue with Betancourt has been the same before he even played an inning for the Brewers. He overall production projects to be SO bad that he's a marginal major league bench player, yet he was penciled in to start for the Brewers. Ironically, Betancourt has actually performed even worse than his projections suggested. In contrast, Gomez is below average but above replacement levell (almost completely because of his defense).

We aren't demanding above average at every position. I don't think even average at every position is a realistic expectation. But when there are minor leaguers and major league bench players that project to be better than your starting major league SS, there are problems.

I agree and I hate Betancourt, Id rather have a Counsell/Wilson platoon, but my point was that every team has guys who suck just like us and Im just happy we can rip on Betancourt while being 8 games over .500 and our rotation looks great.

[topper09er]

And that is because pitching always wins.

Remember Yogi Berra pointed out that good pitching beats good hitting and vice versa

[RockCoCougars]

I agree and I hate Betancourt, Id rather have a Counsell/Wilson platoon, but my point was that every team has guys who suck just like us and Im just happy we can rip on Betancourt while being 8 games over .500 and our rotation looks great.

This. People act like the addition of Reyes would make a CC like impact when that's highly doubtful even though he's having a career year, at least offensively(and it's not even really close - in a contract season)- defensively, at least by looking at the stats, he's been roughly the same as Betancourt.

[MJLiverock]

We are not going to have every player be above average so its not like Betancourt is making us the worst team in the league.

The issue with Betancourt has been the same before he even played an inning for the Brewers. He overall production projects to be SO bad that he's a marginal major league bench player, yet he was penciled in to start for the Brewers. Ironically, Betancourt has actually performed even worse than his projections suggested. In contrast, Gomez is below average but above replacement levell (almost completely because of his defense).

We aren't demanding above average at every position. I don't think even average at every position is a realistic expectation. But when there are minor leaguers and major league bench players that project to be better than your starting major league SS, there are problems.

Sure there may be guys on other teams AAA or bench that may be better than Betancourt but the Brewers would have to trade something and have the other team want to trade their back up or insurance guy. It is easy to say player X is better but to actually obtain that player is a whole different story.

The other issue is saying guys who are also terrible project to be half a win better in some faulty system like WAR isn't really saying much. That is not a guaranteed improvement or saying that playing an aged oft injured Punto out of position is automatically an improvement. Pretty much every marginal major leaguer tossed out as an improvement thus far has been pure speculation that they are really much if any improvement over Betancourt's marginal ML ability, on top of those players are on other teams not just free for the taking.

 

[reillymcshane]

Betancourt brings nothing to the team. Nothing. His bat has been terrible. Worse than any of us imagined. His defense has been bad (maybe not as bad as some said, but still bad).

 

Cut him today. Just get rid of him. No one will trade for him. Cut him. Let Wilson and Counsel work at SS. That's a bad combo, but not worse than Yuni. Or if you don't want Wilson, make a deal for a AAA guy or back up vet like an Adam Everett or Omar Visquel. The price should be modest. But anything will be better than Yuni.

 

Then you open up a spot for a better bat on the bench. Try Gamel or Green or whomever. Sign Russel the Muscle. Find someone who can contribute.

 

This will make the team way better.

 

The move will send a message to players that production is needed. If not, you're gone.

 

The next step is just as obvious. Get rid of Kotsay. A switch hitter who can play all the OF spots would be nice to have as the 5th OF -- oh wait, we have Boggs in the minors. Give the guy some extended time with the club. See if he can help. The team would be much better off.

[Raw Biz]

Then you open up a spot for a better bat on the bench. Try Gamel or Green or whomever. Sign Russel the Muscle. Find someone who can contribute.

Unless there's another Russell I don't know about, Branyan signed with the Angels a few weeks ago.

[monty57]

Cut him today. Just get rid of him. No one will trade for him. Cut him. Let Wilson and Counsel work at SS. That's a bad combo, but not worse than Yuni. Or if you don't want Wilson, make a deal for a AAA guy or back up vet like an Adam Everett or Omar Visquel. The price should be modest. But anything will be better than Yuni.

 

While I'm glad that Roenicke has finally decided to give Yuni a lot of days on the bench, I'm not sure we can just cut him. We are so limited at SS in our system, we may need to hold onto him in case of injury. If we cut Yuni and Wilson gets hurt, we'd be in a situation where Counsell's 41-year-old body would be the only thing keeping us from seeing Edwin Maysonet every day. I know we all want to believe that any warm body is better than Yuni, but I think an extended period of Maysonet at SS may have us wishing we had Yuni back.

 

I'd like to see a better bat on the bench, but I think our best solution would be to find a way to sneak Wilson to AAA. We could then platoon Yuni & Counsell, possibly bring up Green to bolster the bench and get some starts at 3B, and we'd have Wilson close at hand in case of injury.

 

Of course, if we could find this supposed AAA SS that is better than Yuni laying around somewhere, we should grab him, but until he appears, we may need to hold onto our insurance policy.

[TooLiveBrew]

Betancourt has been about as bad as the worst expectations. I don't think anyone can honestly say, at this point, that the concern over him prior to the season was just sensationalism.

[logan82]

I thought he would be better. I never imagined he would be this bad.

[Thurston Fluff]

Betancourt has been about as bad as the worst expectations. I don't think anyone can honestly say, at this point, that the concern over him prior to the season was just sensationalism.

 

I'm a pretty patient guy. It takes months to show real capabilities in baseball not weeks. Even I think he has had enough time to show he is capable. I thought he should be given a shot since I believe he was forced on us but that time has come and gone.