Yuniesky Betancourt: What value does he bring to the team? (part 2)

[endaround]

He is also too old to play more than 2 times a week though.

 

That would be the main problem. Yuni did have a couple nice plays as well. He seems very good at turning double plays good hands and a decent arm. The one where he took Casey's throw coming across the bag was very smooth. His only real weakness on defense seems to me to be range. Only might be a poor choice of words. It really is limited.

 

And Punto the the DL again.

 

Yuni has that going for him as well. NO matter how much better of fielder Punto or Hardy may be if they can't stay on the field their team is going to be going with replacement level players at short quite often as well.

That's like saying that Yuni is terrible food but at least he comes in giant sized portions! 100 games of Punto and 60 games of Yuni is better than 150 games of Yuni and 12 of Counsell.

[RockCoCougars]

Punto is brutal, enough said. Counsell is over 40 and looks every bit of it. Is Yuni a stud? No, but he's no where near as bad as many would have you believe. Betancourt has hit three homers this season, Punto has hit 3 homers.... since some point in 2008, Counsell since some point in 2009. As for the game last night the HR ended up greater than the error, due to Prince's HR. Had the Brewers lost due to the error, it would have been a push.

[cwolf2012]

"No, but he's no where near as bad as many would have you believe."

 

I completely disagree with you. Simply because he hasn't been the worst SS in baseball defensively doesn't change fact that he still hasn't hit at all this year. One well-timed homerun does not make someone a good hitter.

 

He has a .255 wOBA this year. His defense has been better than I expected, but still not anything amazing, and his bat has been significantly worse than I expected. The guy is a bad player. Strawboss has it right, though, there are no replacements. Until something decent comes available, there's nothing we can do but continue to play Yuni.

[endaround]

Punto's career wOBA .294. Betancourt's career wOBA .295.

[TheCrew]

Cherry picking stats leads to nothing. Punto is not an upgrade over Betancourt, even if you can guarantee the guy will stay healthy (which he can't).

 

There is a reason twins fans started everything from facebook groups to websites in their hatred of punto.

[endaround]

What cherry picking? Punto and Betancourt are about equal offensively but Punto is an elite glove while Betancourt is a terrible fielder.

 

And I'll see your Twin fanbase and raise you with the fanbases of Seattle and Kansas City. Royals fans are so happy to be rid of Betnacourt they are celebrating Escobar despite his terrible season.

[COBrewerfan]

Punto is not elite anything. sorry.

[endaround]

Punto is not elite anything. sorry.

On one hand we have scouts saying he's great and stats showing him 18.4 runs saved per 150 games over the average player. On the other? Some Twins fans upset because Gardenhire played him out of position?

[geddymd73]

Punto has no home run power whatsoever. Its not like he hasn't been called a gaping hole on a team either. He's best used as a utility guy, and really should not have more than 250 PA's in a season. This guy's WAR and UZR last year was overrated, yet he still had the lowest fielding percentage on the team, 2nd most in errors, and only played half the year at 3rd base.

 

Yuni is mired with his road woes this year pushing his overall average down. Now he's .324/.342/.465/.807 at home. I can't favor just dumping him altogether and waste potential like that because of his overall numbers. Give Counsell the position every other day on the road. Yuni isn't perfect defensively, but he has made some nice plays.

[TheCrew]

On one hand we have scouts saying he's great and stats showing him 18.4 runs saved per 150 games over the average player. On the other? Some Twins fans upset because Gardenhire played him out of position?

What scout ever said Punto was great? Let alone multiple scouts.

 

Again with the Cherry picking for his uzr/150 rating - that is his career rating. The last season he had significant innings at SS, his uzr/150 was 5 and Punto at the plate............... He's hit about .230 over his last 700 plate appearances, with 2 HR's and a K rate of 20%.

 

This is all while ignoring his health.

 

The guy IS NOT an upgrade - even when healthy. He hasn't been healthy this season so I don't get why his name continues to be brought up in this thread.

 

Betancourt has a BABIP of .239 - he has been extremely unlucky and that will likely improve. Not to mention the guy has a history of playing better in the 2nd half. If Reyes or Furcal become available at a reasonable price - I'm all for it - but outside of that, I've yet to hear anybody come up with a serious/viable alternative that has outplayed Yuni so far this season and when it comes down to it, Yuni's performance for the Brewers in 2011 certainly hasn't warranted the criticism he has received from a select few.

 

What cherry picking?

When you pick a single statistic and try to say players

are equal because that statistic shows they are equal - it's cherry

picking.

[cwolf2012]

"Betancourt has a BABIP of .239 - he has been extremely unlucky and that will likely improve.

 

Normally, I would agree with this strongly. In this case, I don't. It will certainly go up, as .239 is unsustainable, even for him, but he's really bad at making solid contact.

 

I've never seen someone hit so many 1st or 2nd pitch dribblers to 2nd and short. His BABIP will be below league average, even after regression.

[logan82]

Betancourt has a career .283 BABIP and .289, .256, .267 the three previous years. He makes bad contact and has for a few years now.

[RockCoCougars]

"Betancourt has a BABIP of .239 - he has been extremely unlucky and that will likely improve.

 

Normally, I would agree with this strongly. In this case, I don't. It will certainly go up, as .239 is unsustainable, even for him, but he's really bad at making solid contact.

 

I've never seen someone hit so many 1st or 2nd pitch dribblers to 2nd and short. His BABIP will be below league average, even after regression.

I take it that you missed the Jason Kendall era, then? Betancourt has hit more balls hard to outfielders already than Kendall (or Punto) would do in an entire season. Counsell is used up, which has been clearly evident last year and this year. The ONLY thing that either of them does better than Betancourt is draw a walk. Defensively, Punto is a butcher at short and Counsell has lost most of his range with his advanced age and injuries.

[derflotr]

Yeah I used to use the "well, he rarely strikes out" argument, but he doesn't usually see three pitches so that doesn't hold much water.

[TheCrew]

Betancourt has a career .283 BABIP and .289, .256, .267 the three previous years. He makes bad contact and has for a few years now.

Yes, he will be below league avg - but the point is he is extremely low right now, even for Yuni. Considering he put's a lot of balls in play and has a low k rate, a .25-.40 pt jump in that area could be a really big difference.

[DHonks]

cwolf, Betancourt leading the league in SF and also having deep drives to the OF on a nightly basis meant that he could see his BA on balls in play creep up. He drives the ball well. Our issue is that he has this Bill Hall-like philosophy of wanting to ambush the first pitch fastball every time.

[rluzinski]

When you pick a single statistic and try to say players are equal because that statistic shows they are equal - it's cherry picking.

 

 

wOBA takes into account all major batting events.

[MJLiverock]

Punt is not a SS period. He has barely played there in his career and very little again this year. Trying to say he is some defensive whiz at SS is pure speculation and laughable in my opinion which has just as much veracity.

[logan82]

Betancourt has a career .283 BABIP and .289, .256, .267 the three previous years. He makes bad contact and has for a few years now.

Yes, he will be below league avg - but the point is he is extremely low right now, even for Yuni. Considering he put's a lot of balls in play and has a low k rate, a .25-.40 pt jump in that area could be a really big difference.

I expect a better BABIP going forward but he would still be a pretty pathetic hitter even with a .025-.040 jump. Wait you said .25-.40 jump? That would be MVP worthy.

[cwolf2012]

" From everything I've seen Betancourt is better than average defensively."

 

"Defensively, Punto is a butcher at short and Counsell has lost most of his range with his advanced age and injuries."

 

This is completely wrong and borders on trolling.

[RockCoCougars]

"Defensively, Punto is a butcher at short and Counsell has lost most of his range with his advanced age and injuries."

 

This is completely wrong and borders on trolling.

Really? Ask a Twins fan about Punto at short-my friends in the cities call him a 'poor man's David Eckstein'. There is a reason that he has been playing shortstop less and less in recent seasons. Why has LaRussa used him at short only once this season? Counsell was always 'solid but not spectacular'. I wouldn't classify him as 'rangy' at all, at least during his Brewers tenure. I won't accuse you of 'trolling', but let's say I find the Punto at shortstop second-guessers to be a bit preposterous.

[TheCrew]

This is completely wrong and borders on trolling.

Yet you don't have a problem when someone uses a single statistic to evaluate a players offense?

[Ennder]

Really? Ask a Twins fan about Punto at short-my friends in the cities call him a 'poor man's David Eckstein'

 

Every Twins fan I've ever talked to said he was good defensively everywhere he plays, his bat is just terrible. You are the first person I've ever read about ripping on his defense at SS. I even did a search on Punto and about the only negative feedback I could find was that he was a terrible hitter.

[cwolf2012]

"cwolf, Betancourt leading the league in SF and also having deep drives to the OF on a nightly basis meant that he could see his BA on balls in play creep up. He drives the ball well."

 

Nothing in his batted ball profile indicates that he's going to do much better than a .280-.290 BABIP. 18.3% LD% for his career, 16.7% this year. He's also put up a 17.8% and 17.1% in the last two years. His age means he's losing speed, so he can't expect to improve his IFH%.

 

"Yet you don't have a problem when someone uses a single statistic to evaluate a players offense?"

 

There's only one offensive stat right now that is strong enough to indicate offensive value, and it's wOBA. wOBA is pretty darn good, so I'm okay with using it as a primary indicator of performance, and BABIP used to adjust those lines for future predictions offensively.

 

Either way, what posts/statements gave you an indication that I only use one statistic to evaluate a hitter and/or don't have a problem with using a single stat?

[logan82]

If you are going to use one hitting stat, wOBA is probably one of the best. It is a little better than OPS and miles better than BA.