Yuniesky Betancourt: What value does he bring to the team? (part 2)

[Funketown]

Yeah, developing JJ Hardy and Alcides Escobar in a span of five years is much more than most teams can say.

[gregmag]

Remember that Bill Hall was a shortstop too, back when he was a good hitter. Who knows, but it seems at least plausible that he could have held more of his value if they had just left him alone at short. Developing Hall, Hardy, and Escobar at short, and then finding yourself with a sub-replacement guy when you want to make a playoff run, is an instance of plain bad resource management.

[endaround]

Betancourt can't hit, can't field and is uncoachable. I say we send down Braddock to teach the team a lesson in discipline.

[joepepsi]

Yeah, developing JJ Hardy and Alcides Escobar in a span of five years is much more than most teams can say.

btw, for those of you who haven't been keeping score, Hardy's current slash starts: .293/.358/.516 At a time when good ss are hard to find, he is setting himself up for a premium contract.

 

Small sample alert: Alcides Escobar has a .920 OPS in June.

[logan82]

Remember that Bill Hall was a shortstop too, back when he was a good hitter. Who knows, but it seems at least plausible that he could have held more of his value if they had just left him alone at short.

Doubtful. Hall's problem was he couldn't hit outside of 2 years.

[TheCrew07]

I'm glad they dumped Escobar because he's a bad player as well.

I get that people think Esky swings a newspaper... but what happens if he actually hits for around a .700 OPS through his peak and continues his stellar defensive play? How can we write off a player with 1 full year of MLB experience, albeit poor, who's now only 24 years old, as a bad player? Why doesn't his ascending MiLB record and a very solid debut in 2009 count for anything? Escobar's current WAR is 1.1, Hardy's is 1.5, Betancourt's is a paltry -.6. For reference Hardy's 2nd season WAR at age 24 was *drum roll* .7 because he only played in 35 games due to that horrible ankle injury which directly led to Hall's miserable contract based on his break out season. Hardy is on pace to be a 3 WAR player again for the first time since 2008 and Escobar has outside chance of reaching 2.5. Of course Escobar has to continue hitting and if he hit's around .270 for the season while picking up the XBHs a tad he'll end up right around where I always believed he would settle in. He's not going to stay as hot as he's been... but he wasn't a .220 hitter either. However, if Escobar ends up only a 2 WAR player for the season I don't see where that qualifies his as a "bad player", that's actually pretty decent.

 

Casey McGehee was a 2 WAR player for the Brewers in 2009 and people were happy to hand him the 3B job.

[TheCrew07]

Zealous Wheeler is healthy again, and I know he played a little SS to start the AAA season this year. Is he a viable option once he's got some AAA reps in?

He's not exactly what one would call a slick fielder.

Yeah, I don't figure he is. Relative to our other options, is he a good enough fielder to fill out the SS spot until we can find someone else?

Simply put... no.

[logan82]

Casey McGehee was a 2 WAR player for the Brewers in 2009 and people were happy to hand him the 3B job.

 

That 2 WAR was in a partial season. He probably was 3 WAR over a full year that year. Of course I never did and still don't support McGehee as a full time player.

[tomwopat]

RRR on Yuni:

 

 

“I look at what Yuni has done and Yuni has the possibility of

still being very good. If you can tell me other guys that have

those possibilities, then it makes it a viable option to put in

there.

 

 

 

“I know you get frustrated with Yuni, but I’ve seen Yuni really

good and I’ve seen him good for a long time. And it means

something.”

It's getting to the point where one of them has to go. I'm at the point where I don't care which one it is.

 

[RightFieldCoder]

I'd add DM to the list, since he allows this to continue to happen.

[joepepsi]

RRR on Yuni:

 

 

“I look at what Yuni has done and Yuni has the possibility of

still being very good. If you can tell me other guys that have

those possibilities, then it makes it a viable option to put in

there.

 

 

 

“I know you get frustrated with Yuni, but I’ve seen Yuni really

good and I’ve seen him good for a long time. And it means

something.”

It's getting to the point where one of them has to go. I'm at the point where I don't care which one it is.

 

I chalk this up to defending his player in public. RRR can't be this stupid to actually believe what he is saying here. If he is, then Melvin has made a horrible mistake.

 

I'm still counting on a new regular ss by the end of July even if it's an in house solution. Unfortunately Wilson hasn't taken his limited opportunities to force RRR's hand like Nyger Morgan did. Look for a new ss within 5-6 weeks and expect RRR to continue to say nice things about YuniB.

[Thurston Fluff]

I get that people think Esky swings a newspaper.

 

Funny.

 

 

I chalk this up to defending his player in public. RRR can't be this stupid to actually believe what he is saying here. If he is, then Melvin has made a horrible mistake.

 

There are some managers who tel you like it is. Some are more diplomatic. I think it's plain to see which on RRR is. I think the SS who finishes the season isn't on the roster yet.

[joepepsi]

I think the SS who finishes the season isn't on the roster yet.

Agreed. Would love to see Reyes or Hardy finish the year and re-sign, but I don't think the Brewers have the players to get either one. The Orioles might be interested in Gamel, but do you trade him for what might only be a half season of Hardy? I don't think so. Most likely they end up with a short term good fielding vet who can hit a little. Not a lot, but a little.

[bucksman4]

I think Melvin is the one to blame here. Sure we all blame RR because it's easy to do with him filling out the lineup card everyday but Doug makes the personnel decisions and is not replacing him on the roster with someone more competent.

[Thurston Fluff]

Blame? This isn't some sub 500 team with no chance of winning. It's one of the best teams in the NL. Usually the term "give credit" is warranted for teams in serious playoff contention.

 

Would love to see Reyes or Hardy finish the year and re-sign, but I don't think the Brewers have the players to get either one. The Orioles might be interested in Gamel, but do you trade him for what might only be a half season of Hardy?

 

Or the use Prince as a trade chip with the idea that Gamel plus the type of shortstop Prince gets improves the team. If for instance a three way trade can be worked out to get Reyes I think a Gamel/Reyes combo could be better than a Yuni/Prince combo

[rluzinski]

RRR on Yuni:

 

 

“I look at what Yuni has done and Yuni has the possibility of

still being very good. If you can tell me other guys that have

those possibilities, then it makes it a viable option to put in

there.

 

 

 

“I know you get frustrated with Yuni, but I’ve seen Yuni really

good and I’ve seen him good for a long time. And it means

something.”

It's getting to the point where one of them has to go. I'm at the point where I don't care which one it is.

 

Sounds exactly what he was saying about Gomez in spring training. He saw SOMETHING! He apparently really overestimates his ability to judge talent.

[MJLiverock]

The full RR quote prior to that snippet includes

“You tell me, first of all, who would you replace him with?” Roenicke asked rhetorically Monday when asked about Betancourt’s job security. “Can anyone answer that?

 

“Every single team has some deficiencies; every team does. Nobody’s going to be able to fill all those spots.”

 

Roenicke said he will continue to find some spot starts for 40-year-old Craig Counsell and could slip Josh Wilson in there occasionally. But in his mind, neither offers the potential production of Betancourt, who had career highs of 16 home runs and 78 RBIs last year with the Kansas City Royals.

 

“I try to get Counsell in there a little bit more and you look at different things,” he said. “But you also have to look at what history shows you. What’s happened the last couple years with Josh Wilson, with Counsell? Where have they been and what have they done?

end quote.

Which is the point many have tried to make. Counsell isn't offering anything at the plate either and after watching him up close in Boston his range doesn't look all that great anymore. Wilson was signed to the moans of many and aside from a key HR hasn't done anything either.

 

 

Source: Brewers notes: Short on options, Roenicke sticks with Betancourt

 

edit: cited source --1992

[bucksman4]

Blame? This isn't some sub 500 team with no chance of winning. It's one of the best teams in the NL. Usually the term "give credit" is warranted for teams in serious playoff contention.

 

Would love to see Reyes or Hardy finish the year and re-sign, but I don't think the Brewers have the players to get either one. The Orioles might be interested in Gamel, but do you trade him for what might only be a half season of Hardy?

 

Or the use Prince as a trade chip with the idea that Gamel plus the type of shortstop Prince gets improves the team. If for instance a three way trade can be worked out to get Reyes I think a Gamel/Reyes combo could be better than a Yuni/Prince combo

 

 

Yes, blame. I was specifically saying Melvin is to blame for having Yuni as our everyday SS and not blaming RR for running him out there.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I've come to the point where honestly, I can't really blame Roenicke for those comments. Counsell and Wilson might be ok for a very short time, but they don't really bring much to the table. I really don't think any of those 3 are the answer. Doug has to trade for a better option, or it really doesn't even matter who they play at SS. As much as people think that Counsell or Wilson would be better options, it just isn't the case. Counsell seems to have hit the wall, and Wilson isn't very good either. The only thing they offer is a little bit better defense. I think Ron realizes that Yuni sucks, but he also realizes that his other two options aren't great either. It's really all Doug's fault at this point. He needs to get Ron a better option at SS, or he'll just keep running Yuni out there. I'm frustrated about it like everyone else, but it is what it is for now. Until we bring in someone else we'll just have to keep dealing with it. Roenicke has to defend his players, and that's what he's doing until Melvin gives him a reason to not have to. Throwing Yuni under the bus won't really help his cause at this point. He gave up on Gomez because he had a better option in Morgan once he was healthy. It's not like he's afraid to go to a better option if he thinks it's there. The rest is up to Melvin.

[Invader3K]

Josh Wilson has had all of 20 plate appearances with the Brewers, and people are talking like he's demonstrated something one way or another? I know he's not going to be great offensively, but I have to think he'd be better defensively than Betancourt, and probably no worse at the plate. Hell, this season he has an OPS over .800 (very small sample, of course). What is the resistance to giving him some starts?

[MJLiverock]

Wilson does only have 30 AB's for the season(his 10 AB's prior to the Brewers 20 aren't good) but he has over 900 AB's prior to that where his line is .228/.281/.323 which isn't very good. Defensively, his career numbers don't look any better, pretty much negatives just like YB.

[Invader3K]

I get what you're saying. At some point though, some players are just so bad they deserve to not start anymore. I would say Betancourt is definitely at that point. Roenicke should be benching him as an example of what happens to players who don't improve, and go with a Counsell/Wilson platoon until Melvin gives him a real shortstop. Maybe Yuni is a great guy who his teammates like (no evidence of that, just speculating), but his approach and defense are horrid. He should not be starting, regardless of how mediocre the alternatives are.

[JoeHova]

I'd be shocked if the Brewers traded Prince for a shortstop at this point. Yuni is egregiously terrible but when was the last time that a team that considered itself a contender and was only half a game out traded their best hitter (who also happened to be leading the league in home runs, RBIs and OPS) halfway through the season? I can't imagine that's very common, although Melvin did think outside the box when he fired Yost with only 2 weeks left in 2008.

[monty57]

Lots of good points of view in the last few posts. While Doug is to "blame" for Yuni being on the roster, he is also to "blame" for the rest of the roster which gives us a realistic shot at the playoffs this season. I think Yuni's on the roster because KC made sure he was added to the trade. We have a limited budget, so we were in no position to simply dump him after the trade, plus there really weren't any other options out there.

 

That said, it appears that everyone knows that SS is this team's weak link. The feel-good remedy of benching Yuni for a Counsell/Wilson platoon really wouldn't solve anything as we'd be going from bad to bad. The Brewers will likely be able to bump up the payroll if they believe they're realistically in the playoff hunt, so although Melvin was capped out to start the season, he will have some funds if there is a SS out there he can grab. However, I wouldn't expect a monumental move like trading for Reyes, as we don't have the bullets to trade to get him. We'd need to send better than the Mets would get in FA compensation, and we probably aren't in a position to do that. Furcal's injury actually could help the Brewers land him if the Dodgers think there's a possibility he won't be Type A. Otherwise I'd look for someone we can pick up for almost nothing just for agreeing to pay the salary... someone like Jamey Carroll of the Dodgers.

[logan82]

Cutting Yuni makes a bench spot for a good bat. So does cutting Wilson. Get rid of one or the other.