The Wily Peralta Has Arrived Thread

[logan82]

That money doesn't just go to the MLB payroll.

[igor67]

I will point out again that while the prospects traded away at the time certainly seemed significant the Brewers would not have significantly better talent on the field right now if they held onto those guys. Career OPS Lorenzo Cain .720 OPS, Escobar .653 OPS, Lawrie .752 OPS, Brantely .708 and of course La Porta was a complete flop. Odorizzi is still fairly exciting as a guy to follow, but his career ERA in 5 starts is 5.68. Lawrie's 150 rookie ABs is the only thing out of that entire group of prospects that comes remotely close to Segura's year (372 ABs). Or let's put it this way let's drop the benefit of Greinke and Sabathia for playoff runs. Would you trade Segura today for Lawrie and Odorizzi?

[RobertR]

If anything, making those trades saved the franchise from years of disappointment and didn't waste the primes of Fielder and Braun. Hindsight being 20/20, I'd do it all over again. I had fun during those playoff runs.

[TheCrew07]

I will point out again that while the prospects traded away at the time certainly seemed significant the Brewers would not have significantly better talent on the field right now if they held onto those guys.

 

And again I will point out that it's not about trading away talent, it's about the type of return. I'm not sure why we keep coming back to the same points in every thread but simply put operating the way the Brewers did had a scost. Melvin provided 2 very short term windows but those also came with a significant cost... 2009, 2010, 2012, and 2013 are part of that cost... It's the difference between building an organization and patching a roster, and Melvin has almost exclusively done the latter since 2006.

[homer]

I will point out again that while the prospects traded away at the time certainly seemed significant the Brewers would not have significantly better talent on the field right now if they held onto those guys.

 

And again I will point out that it's not about trading away talent, it's about the type of return. I'm not sure why we keep coming back to the same points in every thread but simply put operating the way the Brewers did had a scost. Melvin provided 2 very short term windows but those also came with a significant cost... 2009, 2010, 2012, and 2013 are part of that cost... It's the difference between building an organization and patching a roster, and Melvin has almost exclusively done the latter since 2006.

 

 

Yes it had a cost. You can argue draft all day long and will get no argument from me but the trades for Sabathia and Greinke were absolutely plus trades for the Brewers.

[jjfanec]

I will point out again that while the prospects traded away at the time certainly seemed significant the Brewers would not have significantly better talent on the field right now if they held onto those guys.

 

And again I will point out that it's not about trading away talent, it's about the type of return. I'm not sure why we keep coming back to the same points in every thread but simply put operating the way the Brewers did had a scost. Melvin provided 2 very short term windows but those also came with a significant cost... 2009, 2010, 2012, and 2013 are part of that cost... It's the difference between building an organization and patching a roster, and Melvin has almost exclusively done the latter since 2006.

 

 

Yes it had a cost. You can argue draft all day long and will get no argument from me but the trades for Sabathia and Greinke were absolutely plus trades for the Brewers.

 

The Lawrie for Marcum trade is the only i feel like could be argued was too short term and set us back. We didnt give up anything of super high value for CC and Melvin thought (like pretty much everyone else) that we would net a first round pick for CC after he left. Baseball's stupid compensation system screwed that up. The Greinke traded netted us a very good pitcher for a year and a half and then we flipped him for one of the best young SS in the game and a couple arms. Not sure how that really set us back a ton. 1 1/2 of Greinke (and a playoff run), Segura, Hellweg, and Pena for Odorizzi, Escobar, Cain, and Jeffress. That is not a trade that sets us back. Cain is just a guy in the OF, Escobar is a no hit SS, and Jeffress flamed out. Odorizzi would be nice to have, but Segura is a pretty solid long term player

[RobertR]

Yeah, drafting is one thing, but I don't see how it's arguable that the trades didn't make the Brewers better in the short and long runs. They ended up not giving up much for a lot of talent in return. Seasons of Sabathia, Grienke, and Segura for a bunch of mediocrity with maybe Odorizzi and Lawrie still on the board is a clear win for the Brewers.

 

Which isn't an argument that they have done a good job of drafting and developing talent lately. They haven't. But, the idea that the Brewers can't compete now because they gave up a lot of talent in those deals, is arguably a false one.

 

It's also an argument that there are more ways to acquire talent than drafting it and slowly letting it move up through the farm system.

[brewmann04]

I know i would really be happy for some short turn runs at the playoffs .People have forgot how long it was since the last playoff run.I agree we did not lose that much in the trades but the inability to draft quality prospects has hurt this Franchise. I think this team will always have to look at the short playoff runs.

[jjfanec]

Yeah, drafting is one thing, but I don't see how it's arguable that the trades didn't make the Brewers better in the short and long runs. They ended up not giving up much for a lot of talent in return. Seasons of Sabathia, Grienke, and Segura for a bunch of mediocrity with maybe Odorizzi and Lawrie still on the board is a clear win for the Brewers.

 

Which isn't an argument that they have done a good job of drafting and developing talent lately. They haven't. But, the idea that the Brewers can't compete now because they gave up a lot of talent in those deals, is arguably a false one.

 

It's also an argument that there are more ways to acquire talent than drafting it and slowly letting it move up through the farm system.

 

Completely agree. Drafting not trades set this team back.

[igor67]

This is why it has continued to keep coming up. "Win now" should mean trading prospects for major leaguers to help in the current year. I hope we've established that this is not the problem, the draft and or development has fallen off in the next wave. That is the area that needs improvement not complaining about 'broken windows'. I'd be quite interested in a novel explanation of why certain organizations can crank out so many pitchers year after year. Too much analysis on this front smacks of post hoc explanations rather than meaningful insight into how much is luck, how much is scouting and how much is development.

[gregmag]

Very good, nuanced analyses of the organization's successes and failings. Draft choices have clearly been subpar, although some guys still have time to pull a few drafts partway out of the fire. I have never heard a persuasive criticism of any of DM's trades over the past five years. His worst deals, I think, were Nelson Cruz, Doug Davis to AZ, Grant Balfour, and Joe Thatcher. Those all go back pretty far, and frankly only Cruz was a real impact mistake. Sabathia and Greinke were unalloyed wins. Marcum, in retrospect, looks like a wash, and it certainly seemed like a "give something to get something" deal at the time. It certainly got us what we needed when we needed it. Building the talent base is the heart of any development plan, but one of the reasons you build the talent base is to create trade chips.

[danzig6767]

I know i would really be happy for some short turn runs at the playoffs .People have forgot how long it was since the last playoff run.

 

I guess people simply won't agree on how much fun those two playoff runs were. If i'm not mistaken, TheCrew07 said he didn't enjoy the 96 win and NLCS season at all because of how the team was built.

 

I on the other hand enjoyed that season on a level with the 2010 Packers Super Bowl season and i'm a bigger Packers fan than Brewers fan. I'm old enough to remember all of those lean years between 1982 and 2011, so that was a very special year for me as a Brewers fan. In fact, i was more excited, nervous, and thrilled during that Game 5 vs Arizona than i was during the Packers Super Bowl game. That late year run with Sabathia was also fabulous fun in it's own way given how he just went out there and dominated start after start.

 

I definitely care how the roster is built from year to year by Melvin and Attanasio, but i just don't obsess over it to the degree some others do. While admitting that i don't know every GM in the sport well, i'd say Melvin is a little above average GM, but not elite. So i get some of the frustration that a number of posters have with him because he makes head scratching moves to me also. What i don't get is the hate by some of the overall job he's done, but hey, to each their own.

[jjfanec]

I think my biggest frustration with people's attack of Melvin is how often some throw hypothetical deals as deals he should have made. An example was a poster talking about how Melvin should have traded Cory Hart for Matt Cain. Even though that deal was never on the table. Melvin has made mistakes - The Linebrink trade, signing Suppan, letting KC package Yuni in the Greinke deal, and others but he has also made some really good moves.

 

Melvin was also put in a position to need to trade for starting pitching because even the great Jack Z left the cupboard very bare in terms of MLB pitching. Outside of Gallardo what Jack Z drafted pitcher has panned out? I am guessing there are others but it seems like most have been trades or free agent pick ups

[monty57]

Between Richie Sexson and Zach Greinke, what veterans did we trade away to bring good young talent into the system? One could argue that Sexson really didn't bring good young talent into the system, but instead brought vast quantities of mediocre talent to the MLB roster. So that pretty much leaves one trade in Melvin's decade plus tenure as a GM that brought us a good prospect (Segura), and that was a trade he didn't want to make, but the ineptitude of the MLB roster he put together forced his hand to trade Greinke.

 

There's a lot to franchise building. Everyone looks at the trades that did happen and says that's all that could've happened. Whenever anyone mentions that Melvin possibly could done something differently, they are living in "fantasy land" and told that if something didn't happen, it never could have occurred. We could have traded Lawrie for a young pitcher, we could have traded Hart, Weeks, Fielder, etc rather than extending them or letting them walk via free agency. We could have not signed some of the expensive 30-something free agents we've signed. There are a lot of "could haves" that would have changed things. There is a possibility that we wouldn't have made the playoffs we did, but there's the possibility that we could've made some playoffs we didn't, and there is definitely good reason to believe that we could be in far better shape as a franchise than we currently are.

 

No, I haven't "forgotten how long it was since the last playoff run," but I think some here have never learned the lesson in life that if you continually give up tomorrow for today, tomorrow will eventually bite you in the butt. Looking towards the future doesn't mean giving up on today, but playing for a window does mean giving up on the future. There is an in-between, but that often requires doing things fans may not immediately recognize as a good move, and Attanasio is unwilling to do anything that some drunk bleacher creature may get upset about. He should look north at how Ted Thompson operates. Fans hated Thompson for some of his moves, but they forgave him when the Packers did a quick turn-around and once again became perennial contenders. Now Packer fans don't flinch when big name players are discarded, because they believe that the GM knows what he's doing. But somehow, Attanasio thinks these same fans won't understand similar moves if they were made by the Brewers.

 

But, this is a thread about Wily Peralta, so all of this discussion should really be moved to one of the many "state of the franchise" threads.

[homer]

"Between Richie Sexson and Zach Greinke, what veterans did we trade away to bring good young talent into the system?"

 

Wayne Franklin for Carlos Villanueva!!

 

or JJ Hardy for Carlos Gomez.

[jerichoholicninja]

My question would be what veterans has he had to trade away? When the team sucked, it sucked. The players, outside of Ben Sheets, were terrible. Some are going to say he should've traded Prince or Hart and I'm not going to disagree with that but when your team is winning trading productive veterans for young guys is a real gamble.

 

Also, just remembered he traded Dan Kolb for Jose Capellan. Ya, Capellan tanked but he was BA's the 25th rated prospected after the trade.

[Thurston Fluff]

We could have traded Lawrie for a young pitcher

 

I seriously doubt that. There are way more teams looking for young, cheap high, ceiling pitching than young, cheap, high ceiling middle infielders. Young pitching is typically more valued than young hitting so it seems very unlikely we would get equal value to Marcum in a deal.

 

we could have traded Hart, Weeks, Fielder, etc rather than extending them or letting them walk via free agency.

 

IIRC they tried to trade Fielder but nobody wanted to give up anything close to equal value for him. I suppose we could have traded him sooner but I fail to see how continually trading proven good players, under our control for multiple season's, for young, unproven talent really ever gets us to where we want to be sooner. I mean as soon as those guys get good, following your idea of what should be done, we trade them for some supposed perfect future scenario. A scenario that is less likely to occur the more times you trade a known commodity for an unknown quantity. The Brewers chose instead to use them to actually win the division and take a shot at the WS.

[TooLiveBrew]

Back on topic in this thread, please. Not that I think the discussion isn't good, but let's keep this one on Peralta. If I have time & remember after work, I'll move this string of posts to the 'state of the franchise' thread.

[Thurston Fluff]

Actually I thought I was on that thread. Silly me.

[BrewersAA]

Back on topic in this thread, please. Not that I think the discussion isn't good, but let's keep this one on Peralta. If I have time & remember after work, I'll move this string of posts to the 'state of the franchise' thread.

 

^^this

 

I came back to this thread just to say I was disappointed that it turned into a Melvin thread for some reason.

[homer]

In his last 35.1 innings, Peralta has 4 earned runs.

[danzig6767]

I'll admit that i sure didn't see this great run coming from Willy, but so great to see,

 

In a dismal season, at least we've had three brights spots now in Segura, Gomez, and Peralta.

[homer]

I'll admit that i sure didn't see this great run coming from Willy, but so great to see,

 

In a dismal season, at least we've had three brights spots now in Segura, Gomez, and Peralta.

 

I'll throw Lucroy in there too. He has 5th best OPS amongst all catchers in baseball.

[JohnBriggs12]

I'll admit that i sure didn't see this great run coming from Willy, but so great to see,

 

In a dismal season, at least we've had three brights spots now in Segura, Gomez, and Peralta.

 

It's July 22nd. It's a little early to write off the entire season as "dismal". May was a dismal month and put them out of contention early so it seems as if the entire season has been dismal. But there have been plenty of positives.

 

Peralta has been compared more than once to a young Bartolo Colon. The old Bartolo Colon isn't bad either.

[fondybrewfan]

The emergence of Peralta almost has me to the point of being optimistic for 2014 and not wanting to trade off pieces that could help us next year. Lohse and Peralta could form a nice 1-2 punch and Gallardo + Estrada/Nelson/Hellweg/Etc could be decent enough to fill out the rotation.

 

I don't think I am to the point yet of just wanting to hold tight; but any moves Doug makes should be with the intention of hopefully competing next year. There are enough nice pieces on this team that a full blown rebuild doesn't seem necessary. Peralta's emergence as a potential #2 starter is making believe more and more that this team is closer to competing than not. Just figure out 1st base and try to find one additional solid starter.