Brewers High-A Future -- Latest: Manatees choose Braves; Rockies May Like Carolina, Too

[madbad2000]

John Manuel seems to think Wilmington is also an option for the Brewers

 

Do you have a link? Wilmington Blue Rocks?

[brewmann04]

I hope we land in Carolina league

[madbad2000]

http://www.baseballamerica.com/business/minor-league-affiliation-chart/#bgDzCrjh8haxq17d.97a

 

Looks like last High A affiliate left is Carolina after Wilmington reups with Royals. Sucks for me since Wilmington is like 1.5-2 hrs away.

[jw5511986]

John Manuel seems to think Wilmington is also an option for the Brewers

 

Do you have a link? Wilmington Blue Rocks?

 

He tweeted it at me, let me try to link it.

 

Check out @johnmanuelba's Tweet:

[Mass Haas]

After 14 years in the Cal League, Ballpark Digest now mentions that the Rockies have interest in returning to the Carolina League, where they fielded a team in Salem from 1995-2002.

 

The implications here are serious for the Brewers, as the only two High-A options that appear to be on the table are the Carolina Mudcats, as discussed earlier in this thread, and the drastically offensively-skewed California League Lancaster Jethawks.

 

Way back on June 26th this was the post, it's now looking like a 50-50 situation:

 

2016 is the Brewers 12th year associated with Brevard County.

 

Franchise history, W/L records

 

In those 12 years, the Manatees have posted just three winning records, and have qualified for the playoffs only twice (this, in a split-season league), so 24 opportunities to qualify over those seasons. Brevard hasn't made a postseason appearance since 2009.

 

Included in that Brewer affiliation history are recent marks of 55-80 last season and 23-48 thus far in 2016, which includes losses in their most recent eight games.

 

The Brewers can tell media that they anticipate a renewal with Brevard's ownership team.

 

But we've seen this ship sail before, haven't we?

 

Milwaukee certainly thought the Sounds' management would remain faithful, but in the end, the Brewers failure to place competitive teams in Nashville, particularly in their most recent seasons, proved the reason the Sounds made a change.

 

If the Manatees were going to renew with an obviously willing partner, why wouldn't they have already?

 

There are going to be several organizations very interested in Kissimmee, most of them anxious clubs looking to escape the California League. Darn right the Manatees are going to wait to hear from those clubs once talks can begin at the end of this season, although backroom whispers are most certainly happening now.

 

Heck, even the Astros, very familiar with the Kissimmee facility, are going to want out (and fast) of the Lancaster nightmare in California.

 

So the Brewers can say all is good with their 12-year partner, but 12 years can translate to "stale" as well, right? Milwaukee can send all the big league rehabbers to High-A, and coordinate work in the community, etc., but in the end, we should prepare for late night and very crooked-number box scores coming out of some forsaken California League jetstream next spring.

 

And if the Manatees do re-up with the Crew, I'll applaud heartily, but will also be absolutely shocked.

 

Et tu, Nashville? Oh, after a tough first year with the Athletics, there you are, leading your division in 2016. Yes, it's all about player development, but even the locals (and especially their owners) like W's.

[pogokat]

whoever is in charge of contracting affiliates for the Brewers should be the first one fired this offseason

[Point Beer Is Best]

whoever is in charge of contracting affiliates for the Brewers should be the first one fired this offseason

 

Is Gord Ash overseeing all of the affiliate locations, or is he charged specifically with just getting out of Colorado Springs?

[MadThinker88]

It would be better to be in Carolina for High A then the California league.

That said if the Crew ended up in the California League and somehow landed in Toledo for AAA, then that would be acceptable.

 

IMHO California League for High A and PCL Colorado Springs for AAA is the worst possible outcome.

[CheezWizHed]

Given our current state of the MiLB clubs and number of prospects in the system, you would think we are more desirable than some other clubs at least. Surely better than Colorado...

[MrTPlush]

Given our current state of the MiLB clubs and number of prospects in the system, you would think we are more desirable than some other clubs at least. Surely better than Colorado...

 

They don't care about prospects, they care about winning.

[MilwaukeesBest]

Given our current state of the MiLB clubs and number of prospects in the system, you would think we are more desirable than some other clubs at least. Surely better than Colorado...

 

They don't care about prospects, they care about winning.

 

And you know the two are more times than not correlated, right?

[MrTPlush]

Given our current state of the MiLB clubs and number of prospects in the system, you would think we are more desirable than some other clubs at least. Surely better than Colorado...

 

They don't care about prospects, they care about winning.

 

And you know the two are more times than not correlated, right?

 

Sometimes yes....sometimes no. We had a Top5 system and a bottom 5 record. Sure didn't help us this year did it?

[pacopete4]

 

Sometimes yes....sometimes no. We had a Top5 system and a bottom 5 record. Sure didn't help us this year did it?

 

 

Was it top 5 before the trades and draft this year? I'd expect our teams in the minors to fair pretty well in the next few years.

[MrTPlush]

 

Sometimes yes....sometimes no. We had a Top5 system and a bottom 5 record. Sure didn't help us this year did it?

 

 

Was it top 5 before the trades and draft this year? I'd expect our teams in the minors to fair pretty well in the next few years.

 

Was at least Top 10.

 

Braves if I recall we a Top 5 to a lot of experts and their teams didn't fair much better.

[jerichoholicninja]

Given our current state of the MiLB clubs and number of prospects in the system, you would think we are more desirable than some other clubs at least. Surely better than Colorado...

 

They don't care about prospects, they care about winning.

 

And you know the two are more times than not correlated, right?

 

Take a look at the composite record thread. I wouldn't say there is no correlation but there is very little.

[TheCrew07]

Minor League teams for the most part know they don't control the talent and therefore the product so they go out of their way to control the experience.

 

I really don't want to rehash all of the various articles about this which MH and I have linked over the years, but in the long run individual talent matters more than winning and losing, teams market past players who moved up to MLB. It's true that our AAA teams with Nashville were awful, but what legitimate prospect went through there in those losing years? The Brewers didn't give the Sounds anything to work with at all so while I was disappointed about losing out on a now tremendous stadium situation in Nashville, I understood it because when I doubled up that was the other team I ended up covering more often not for the Link Report.

 

Huntsville had some tremendous teams and no one in the community cared that they won, or they were prospect laden, they just wanted to talk about the A's prospects of ole. The 2008 Stars were absolutely loaded with talent as just about every regular position player made it to MLB and they still had the 2nd worst attendance in the league. Granted the pitching wasn't all that great but the hitters put up a .784(!) OPS on the season.

 

Biloxi has drawn almost the exact same same # of fans in 2 seasons regardless of the conditions while baseball is new to the community, with plenty of high profile prospects, and winning, yet the Shuckers attendance is 3rd worst in the league.

 

I think it's bigger and than winning and losing and without a great baseball tradition which stretches back 20-30 years (essentially a brand) a regional affiliation is pretty key. The Dayton Dragons (47-93) were awful this season but still led the MWL in attendance as they always do, in fact their game average is 7th best in all of minor league baseball, that's incredible. I think if you combine a brand with a regional affiliation then you have the potential for a fairly special relationship. I don't a see another WI fit for A+ or AA, there just aren't any leagues in the north, so to get that kind of regional affiliation we're talking about getting a AAA club into Madison, or going without like the Brewers always have, because I don't see the Cubs ever giving up Iowa.

[MadThinker88]

Absolutely player development is the #1 role of the minor league system.

But do not discount the impact of winning/ losing in that process. I'm not suggesting it overrides individual player development but learning to overcome adversity, having success, building upon success are necessary items in the overall development process.

 

On the positive side in 2016, the Brewer affiliates at AA and Low A had winning records. AAA was under .500 but those 3 levels were combined around .500. That's good.

 

On the negative side, High A was historically bad & it dragged down the entire system record. Additionally only 1 affiliate made the playoffs. The playoffs are a great learning tool and when not a part of, development opportunities are lost (& unable to be regained).

[TheCrew07]

I was posting from an Affiliate perspective, not a development perspective.

 

The 2012 T-Rats won a league title without a legitimate prospect anywhere, Jason Rogers and Yadiel Rivera were it, and then some current relievers like GoForth, Cravy, and Barnes.

 

The best prospect was Mitch Haniger but he only played 14 games after the draft before going down for the season with an injury.

 

I agree that winning can positively effect player development, but I don't think player development really has part in this discussion other than concerns about the weather and facility amenities which could negatively impact development.

[MrTPlush]

Right or wrong it seems like teams do care about winning. If it is all about prospects explain to me why we are still stuck in Colorado or what may be a bad A+ situation?

 

It may not be all about winning, but a near 100 loss team? That isn't even baseball. Fans are still going to watch a baseball game and the Manatees didn't do that often last year.

[TheCrew07]

I point again to the Dayton Dragons who were awful and and yet outdrew 80% of the AAA teams. You can continue to ignore all of the evidence because it doesn't fit your simplistic model of winning and losing, but have you even read, listened, or watched an interview with a minor league team president or GM? They talk about marketing an experience and players, not a winning team, because winning and losing is outside of their control.

 

Like it or not the Brewers haven't been a marketable franchise from a historical perspective, and the Brewers haven't really put much effort into their minor league affiliates, the only relationship they seem to cherish is the T-Rats which is easy to do a bunch of cross promotional stuff for. They've always been good with the affiliates from a communication perspective, but if you're a baseball fan in MS does it matter to you that Orlando Arcia was a Shucker last year? Or Josh Hader was this year?

 

There are many reasons why the Brewers end up getting stuck with the last available franchise when the dust settles, and while I agree that winning and losing can have an effect, it's not the primary factor, what matters most is the marketing opportunities the parent organization provides. Without rehab assignments, without impact talent reaching the major leagues, without ever winning, what can the MiLB team market to fans beyond the typical minor league experience?

 

One of the primary reasons I've wanted the Brewers to buy into MiLB affiliates is simply because they aren't a marketable franchise around baseball and that's a difficult conversation to have because many Brewer fans simply don't want to believe it. Buying into a situation with good facilities for prospect development eliminates that factor and brings long term security to the situation... all of the issues that concern me from a development perspective can be wiped away making the process extremely black and white.

 

The Brewers don't have a winning tradition of baseball at any level, and the quality of baseball hasn't improved for the Rattlers by having the Brewers as the parent organization, what's made the biggest difference for the improvement in attendance has been the regional affiliation to the Brewers.

[reillymcshane]

All the rules and requirements aside, it would be nice if the Brewers invested in a team in Madison. The Mallards average 6000+ a game (although they don't play games in April/May). Colorado Springs averaged 4700 in 2015, so we could probably match that.

[MrTPlush]

Looks like I missed the part about where I said it was all about wins or losses. Pretty sure all I said is they care about it and do consider it. Which you then touched base on in your post.

[yfinn6]

All the rules and requirements aside, it would be nice if the Brewers invested in a team in Madison. The Mallards average 6000+ a game (although they don't play games in April/May). Colorado Springs averaged 4700 in 2015, so we could probably match that.

 

That would be most awesome.

[homer]

 

One of the primary reasons I've wanted the Brewers to buy into MiLB affiliates is simply because they aren't a marketable franchise around baseball and that's a difficult conversation to have because many Brewer fans simply don't want to believe it. Buying into a situation with good facilities for prospect development eliminates that factor and brings long term security to the situation... all of the issues that concern me from a development perspective can be wiped away making the process extremely black and white.

 

The Brewers don't have a winning tradition of baseball at any level, and the quality of baseball hasn't improved for the Rattlers by having the Brewers as the parent organization, what's made the biggest difference for the improvement in attendance has been the regional affiliation to the Brewers.

 

 

I agree. I think the best selling point the Brewers could make to a minor league affiliate is an extended run of success at the major league level.

 

Also, I think Madison would be a nice minor league town but it might be too small for AAA. Too bad there's not a AA league closer.

[lamiwe21]

The Shuckers poor overall attendance is odd. I can best guess that the city and owners overestimated the casinos pull being located between New Orleans, 91 miles to the west, and Mobile, 62 miles to the east. It is also a very expensive for a AA stadium.

The Brewers can always offer their MILB counterparts what they really want: MLB players on rehab, top prospects, and exhibition games along with marketing help. Brewers did all that for the Shuckers in Year 2. An MLB exhibition game after expenses can pay a MILB teams labor budget for the whole year.