General thoughts on the franchise.

[FVBrewerFan]

I've said for years they need to do 3 things. They've had success certain years without them, but to be consistently successful, they need to do these three things.

 

1) Establish position of VP- Pitching. The franchise will never compete consistently, and never have a legit shot at the WS title without developing their own pitching. This person would be virually on the same level as the GM, maybe half-step below. Responsible for scouting and developing pitching. Should be given any and all resources he needs in terms of personnel, technology, etc. This could lead anywhere from mechanics, to developing certain pitches, mindset, etc. Yes, they already have people devoted to pitching, but putting somone in charge witha laser focus on pitching is what's needed here. Tear down whatever is known and start from the ground-up. Every detail. Who would it be? No idea, but I'm thinking there must be someone in the Cards, Dodgers, Giants. etc. org that would be a perfect fit.

 

2) Vastly improve international program. True, the Brewers are improving there, but were late to the party and still have a lot of catching up to do. The future of MLB is international players, pretty easy to see.

 

3) Move the walls back and/or up at MP. Goes along with developing pitchers, and then keeping them. Tough home park for rookie pitchers to have to deal with. Plus, when you have guys like Braun, Segura, Gomez, Aoki, etc. they would have a lot more doubles and triples. There are way too many ground rule doubles at MP. Look at the teams that win the WS every year, almost always pitchers parks. Maybe a coincidence , but I doubt it. It's the mindset of an organization that pitching is priority #1.

[RobDeer 45]

Under Attanasio and Melvin, the Brewers have been one of the most successful small market franchises in MLB. They have won at least 75 games every year since 2005. Two 90-win seasons. However, there is no doubt that the failure to obtain quality pitching has not only limited past success but will also bring the current run of success to an end if they stay on the same path. The Rays have four 90 win seasons since 2008. The Reds are the other small market team that appears to be on the path to having several chances at a deep playoff run.

 

A rebuild guarantees nothing. This team obviously isn't nearly as bad as it has been playing. The Pirates and Royals are showing signs of success, but they have both been "rebuilding" for over a decade with repeated failures. There is still no guarantee that either franchise will even end their respective playoff droughts, make a World Series, or maintain their success for more than one or two seasons. The Twins, once the model small market franchise, are now stuck in mediocrity after failing to advance past the ALCS. Even worse, there are a number of mid-market teams with tens of millions of more revenue that the Brewers who have been mediocre for ages--Seattle is a perfect example, they have the once-prized Brewers scouting director who has accomplished nothing of significance in 4 1/2 years. The Blue Jays are a trainwreck. If Melvin had an extra $20 million/year to spend on pitching, the Brewers would likely be one of the most dominant teams in the National League and still have a payroll barely above the league average.

 

Despite the struggles, I am strongly opposed to firing Melvin. Melvin is not perfect, but the Brewers are still in a far better position than many other small market franchises. If they find a GM that is good at developing pitching, they will almost certainly become deficient other areas that may become the future achilles heel. I do think there should be major changes and additional investment at the scouting and player development level. All indications are that the new TV contracts are going to put the Brewers farther behind financially in upcoming years, so if they do replace Melvin, all attention should be focused at the minor leagues. Also, if they do commit to a multi-year rebuilding, Ryan Braun should be traded. There is no point to having him sit out the prime of his career in a rebuild and he could net more high-level pitching prospects than the rest of the team combined.

 

Finally, I just wonder how much of the pitching failure is caused by Miller Park. Top-level pitching can be good anywhere (see Greinke or Sabathia), but average pitching seems to turn into terrible pitching in hitters ballparks. Perhaps the Brewers should consider moving back the fences in the power alleys and/or raising the LF wall for 2014?

 

This is pretty much how I feel.

[fondybrewfan]

My general feeling as this.

 

The last 5 years have easily been the best Brewers run since I have been a fan and really since I have been alive. We didn't win or even make a World Series but we were two games away and that season was incredibly fun. This team has drafted two HOF players in Braun & Fielder, traded for HOF talents like Sabathia and Grienke (Not necessarily HOF but very talented), and in general have tried to put out the best possible team they could every single year. Yes this has come somewhat at the expense of the farm system and the lack of pitching talent is well documented. However the Brewers still have a huge amount of talent on this team that is no where near the decline phase yet. There are some decisions to be made on players that are at that point but we still have a strong core. I believe this team can remain competitive for a long time and our pitching isn't nearly as bad as they are performing right now. There are some promising players in MILB that can supplement our strong core in the next 2-3 years.

 

This year has been incredibly dissappointing but I am chalking it up more to underperformance than lack of overall talent. I still watch most of the games and it is very entertaining to watch Segura, Braun, Aoki, Gomez, and Ramirez. I follow the minor leagues closer than anyone I know and I feel confident that the stable of minor leaguers we have along with our major league talent will keep us competitve. Maybe not win a World Series competitive but perhaps make the playoffs every 2 or 3 years and never lose 90 games type of competitive.

[3and2Fastball]

I follow the minor leagues closer than anyone I know and I feel confident that the stable of minor leaguers we have along with our major league talent will keep us competitve.

 

Who do we have in the Minors who has the potential to be an MLB All-Star (or even an impact player)?

[fondybrewfan]

Well since we already have all star calibur players like Braun, Gomez, Aoki. and Segura I don't know that we necessarily need any all star hitters out of our minor league system in order to field a good offense. Their probably aren't any all star level hitters in AA or AAA but I think at least one or two of Taylor, Haniger, Roache, Reed, and Coulter at WI can turn into that type of player. Jimmy Nelson and Ariel Pena are exciting to me; maybe not all stars either but they could easily become the equivalent of a Gallardo (#2 type pitcher). There are others pitchers that have a chance as well but their seasons this year aren't going all that great. Lopez in WI would be an example. The point being is that the minor league system is not as bare as people think; there isn't a guy like Braun in there but there are plenty of guys that can be above average MLB players. Besides Melvin is always finding nice players through transactions. Aoki, Gomez, Segura, Ramirez, etc. I am confident ath DM will continue to field a team worth rooting for. Some years will be good and some years will suck but its not like we are the 2002 Brewers that is so devoid of talent that it was utterly hopeless

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

Honestly I am a little concerned about the future. The Cardinals, Cubs, and Reds all have the ability to outspend the Brewers by a lot. The Reds, Cubs, Cardinals, and Pirates all have top 100 prospects coming through the system. It's likely that there will be busts for them. Not all of those prospects are going to work out. The Brewers do not have much. None of the Brewers prospects are in the top 100. There are no future aces in the minors. As always the team has some rookie hitters that are projected to be contributers. I don't there are any Fielder or Braun types in the minors. Unfortunately the Brewers are a small-market team. That means that the team gets 5 to 7 good years followed by a mediocre period. Doug Melvin has made the future a little foggy. I think that it is going to take awhile to stock the farm system again. I hate trading away players that we have become accustomed to, but it might time to do so. The Brewers need to improve the scouting system. Hire better scouts and start investing most of the budget into the farm system. The Brewers should model their system after St. Louis, Oakland or Tampa Bay. The Cards, A's and Rays are constantly recycling. The only way for the Brewers to stay competitive is to have a healthy system that constantly produces players. The Cardinals are always competitive because of their farm system. When their current group gets old, they have another one ready to go. Oscar Taveras is going to be a pain in the butt for a long time. They have a bunch of young pitchers that are projected to be great players. They might have a future closer in Trevor Rosenthal. I think the playoff runs have ended for the Brewers. I think that we are going to enter a bit of a mediocre period for a few years. That mediocre period will not be as bad as the early Ben Sheets days. I think that the Brewers most of the time will be somewhere between 75 to 84 wins. Not awful but kind of mediocre. This years team is missing an ace that's it. The offense is good. The bullpen is average. If the Brewers had an ace, everyone else in the rotation would fall into place.

 

1. Ace

2. Gallardo

3. Lohse

4. Estrada

5. Peralta

 

Right now everyone is bumped up to a spot that they probably shouldn't be at. The bullpen will have good stretches followed by bad stretches. That is what an average bullpen does. The lineup will be fine when Hart comes back. Everyone will go back to their normal spots again.

 

1. Aoki

2. Segura

3. Braun

4. Ramirez

5. Hart

6. Gomez

7. Lucroy

8. 2B

9. Pitcher

 

It will look something like that, either way it is a great lineup. Trading for an ace would kill the farm system. The Brewers should give away the little that they have. What about signing one? It could be a very expensive short-term deal? Any aces projected to hit free agency?

[3and2Fastball]

Well since we already have all star calibur players like Braun, Gomez, Aoki. and Segura I don't know that we necessarily need any all star hitters out of our minor league system in order to field a good offense. Their probably aren't any all star level hitters in AA or AAA but I think at least one or two of Taylor, Haniger, Roache, Reed, and Coulter at WI can turn into that type of player. Jimmy Nelson and Ariel Pena are exciting to me; maybe not all stars either but they could easily become the equivalent of a Gallardo (#2 type pitcher). There are others pitchers that have a chance as well but their seasons this year aren't going all that great. Lopez in WI would be an example. The point being is that the minor league system is not as bare as people think; there isn't a guy like Braun in there but there are plenty of guys that can be above average MLB players. Besides Melvin is always finding nice players through transactions. Aoki, Gomez, Segura, Ramirez, etc. I am confident ath DM will continue to field a team worth rooting for. Some years will be good and some years will suck but its not like we are the 2002 Brewers that is so devoid of talent that it was utterly hopeless

 

Thanks very much for your reply. I was asking sincerely as I really didn't know

 

I like Victor Roache's potential alot if he can fix some of swing mechanics

[bjkrautk]

For all the talk that the franchise needs to find and develop quality, young (cheap) starting pitching, the 2012 team rallied in the second half based on a core of quality, young starting pitching prospects (Fiers - 3.74 ERA, 1.26 WHIP; Peralta - 2.48 ERA, 1.21 WHIP; Rogers - 3.92 ERA, 1.28 WHIP; Thornburg - 4.50 ERA, 1.41 WHIP). We, as fans, hoped that all of these players would make positive improvements, and make positive contributions to the 2013 Brewers.

 

Unfortunately, young pitchers (particularly those with small major league samples) can also be erratic, and every single one of them has regressed this season. Their ERAs are closer to 6 than 3 (including Thornburg's ERA in AAA ball). The less said about Rogers in 2013, the better.

 

Granted, none of these players are "can't miss" prospects, but I do believe that one or more of these pitchers (and I will lump Burgos in with them, even though he did not pitch for the big club in 2012) can come closer to their 2012 performances in 2013.

 

I think there will be a net improvement in the offense with Hart's return (and any regression to the mean by Weeks and Lucroy to be balanced out by similar regression by players like Gomez and Segura). I don't think this year's team is a playoff team, if only because they have let a number of winnable games fall by the wayside, and I don't think they are good enough to catch up in the 2nd half like they nearly did last year. I do trust DM to get value for players, even if the return isn't always as immediately obvious as the Grienke trade.

 

 

I'm just not willing to write off the franchise because of a bad 1/3rd of a season. I'm watching just as much baseball this year as I did in 2012, 2011, 2010....to well into the 90s. (I didn't watch as much baseball before that....because they didn't televise nearly as many games then; that's what radio was for!) I am disappointed in this year's team...but who wouldn't be?

[TooLiveBrew]

I've been a Brewer fan since the late 70s. I have seen a lot worse Brewer teams than this during that stretch. I have absolutely zero regrets over what the Brewers have traded away in recent years in order to make playoff appearances. There is a word for "fans" who only show interest in a team when things are going well. I think people need to step away from the ledge.

Passively-aggressively calling people 'fairweather fans' who have lost interest this season & last because of the manner in which the team has been run. Nice.

 

You know, I can only speak for myself, but I've watched as many games as possible of this team whether they've been good (rarely) or stunk (all too often). But if you consider someone fairweather because he/she recognizes that the way Melvin & Attanasio have run the organization has led the team to the precipice of having little talent on the MLB roster & having a pretty barren farm system, then I'm not sure what to say. I guess it makes you feel better to belittle someone?

 

I mean, hey, if so many people on this site are beaming with pride that this team won a single playoff series with the kind of talent Melvin & Co. had to work with for the better part of a decade, more power to them. I guess I'm not that kid that's happy to just be included. I want this organization to develop a gameplan so it has a realistic shot at contending for more than a season or two. To lump that kind of desire in with being a fairweather fan is ignorant & lazy imo. I can handle the ups & downs of winning & losing in MLB, that's the way it goes. But I'm sick of seeing a rudderless organization.

[PrinceFielderx1]

Under Attanasio and Melvin, the Brewers have been one of the most successful small market franchises in MLB. They have won at least 75 games every year since 2005. Two 90-win seasons. However, there is no doubt that the failure to obtain quality pitching has not only limited past success but will also bring the current run of success to an end if they stay on the same path. The Rays have four 90 win seasons since 2008. The Reds are the other small market team that appears to be on the path to having several chances at a deep playoff run.

 

A rebuild guarantees nothing. This team obviously isn't nearly as bad as it has been playing. The Pirates and Royals are showing signs of success, but they have both been "rebuilding" for over a decade with repeated failures. There is still no guarantee that either franchise will even end their respective playoff droughts, make a World Series, or maintain their success for more than one or two seasons. The Twins, once the model small market franchise, are now stuck in mediocrity after failing to advance past the ALCS. Even worse, there are a number of mid-market teams with tens of millions of more revenue that the Brewers who have been mediocre for ages--Seattle is a perfect example, they have the once-prized Brewers scouting director who has accomplished nothing of significance in 4 1/2 years. The Blue Jays are a trainwreck. If Melvin had an extra $20 million/year to spend on pitching, the Brewers would likely be one of the most dominant teams in the National League and still have a payroll barely above the league average.

 

Despite the struggles, I am strongly opposed to firing Melvin. Melvin is not perfect, but the Brewers are still in a far better position than many other small market franchises. If they find a GM that is good at developing pitching, they will almost certainly become deficient other areas that may become the future achilles heel. I do think there should be major changes and additional investment at the scouting and player development level. All indications are that the new TV contracts are going to put the Brewers farther behind financially in upcoming years, so if they do replace Melvin, all attention should be focused at the minor leagues. Also, if they do commit to a multi-year rebuilding, Ryan Braun should be traded. There is no point to having him sit out the prime of his career in a rebuild and he could net more high-level pitching prospects than the rest of the team combined.

 

Finally, I just wonder how much of the pitching failure is caused by Miller Park. Top-level pitching can be good anywhere (see Greinke or Sabathia), but average pitching seems to turn into terrible pitching in hitters ballparks. Perhaps the Brewers should consider moving back the fences in the power alleys and/or raising the LF wall for 2014?

 

I bolded the main part about what you wrote that everybody here needs to really think about and understand, before they call for the team to rebuild. It could very well mean this team wont compete for 5-10+ years. I as a fan don't want that. However, I'm in favor of trading a couple key players right now depending on the players we get in return. I would want a top 25 prospect for each of the following players or my answer is no, Gallardo, Hart, Lohse, Ramirez and Gomez. If the Brewers have to include a prospect or two in a trade involving these players, then so be it. Also, I view Braun and Segura as untradeable. They are the faces of the Brewers franchise and they won't be traded.

[Polish Falcons]

No, I fully understand the point. I think that suggesting we traded away the future for two playoff appearances not only undervalues the significance of making the NLCS for the first time in Twenty Nine Years, it also ignores the fact that all those transactions also netted Jean Segura who appears to be better than all the prospects we traded away, combined.

 

I don't think it's fair to look at how players turned out and assume they'd have turned out the same way had they stayed with us. You never really know of course but things could have been different for guys like Lawrie, LaPorta, and Cain in Milwaukee. And yes the Brewers got Segura but let's face facts. The major reason Melvin accepted LAA's offer instead of Texas' offer is because of the absolute dearth of shortstops in the system. Had LAA not made Segura available we're looking at Alex Gonzalez as our starting shortstop with nothing behind him. And I'll proclaim right here and now that neither Hellweg or Pena will amount to anything more than middle relievers, if that. If you can't throw strikes you can't be a major league starter and Pena and Hellweg cannot throw strikes.

 

 

 

So you don't think it's fair to use statistics and performance to evaluate a player. Instead you use a hypothetical scenario, which is opposite of reality, as a way to criticize the organization. That's some argument.

 

Under this train of thought I say willy petals is having a fantastic season, if only the brewers wore retro jerseys every time he pitched.

[Patrick425]

I've been a Brewer fan since the late 70s. I have seen a lot worse Brewer teams than this during that stretch. I have absolutely zero regrets over what the Brewers have traded away in recent years in order to make playoff appearances. There is a word for "fans" who only show interest in a team when things are going well. I think people need to step away from the ledge.

Passively-aggressively calling people 'fairweather fans' who have lost interest this season & last because of the manner in which the team has been run. Nice.

 

You know, I can only speak for myself, but I've watched as many games as possible of this team whether they've been good (rarely) or stunk (all too often). But if you consider someone fairweather because he/she recognizes that the way Melvin & Attanasio have run the organization has led the team to the precipice of having little talent on the MLB roster & having a pretty barren farm system, then I'm not sure what to say. I guess it makes you feel better to belittle someone?

 

Relax. Ok. I won't be "passive-aggressive". If every time the team "goes south" you whine about the owners and management and stop watching games, then yes, you are a fair weather fan. Call it "belittling" if you want, but I don't know any other way to put it.

 

I don't watch every single game from first pitch to last pitch, and I'll admit that a team is a lot more fun to watch when they are winning, but I'm not going to stop watching a team all together because they go through a period where they seem stuck in a "rut". It happens to just about every team in the league at some point or another. The Brewers might not be contenders for another 10 years, but what am I going to do, become a Yankees fan?

[logan82]

It isn't about wining or losing. If they were losing this year without Lohse and having traded some players to acquire good young talent, I would be much happier even with a worse record. My disgust stems from the direction of the franchise.

 

I wouldn't feel any better about the franchise if the team went on a 30-game15-game winning streak.

 

Edit for hyperbole.

[PrinceFielderx1]

It isn't about wining or losing. If they were losing this year without Lohse and having traded some players to acquire good young talent, I would be much happier even with a worse record. My disgust stems from the direction of the franchise.

 

I wouldn't feel any better about the franchise if the team went on a 30-game winning streak.

 

You'd have much more of a point if you took out the bold. It contradicts your point, because if this team went on a 30 game winning streak, they'd actually have a good team, both on the pitching side and offensive side.

[logan82]

Wrong, they would have good results.

 

I am not trying to make a point, just state my opinion.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

Under Attanasio and Melvin, the Brewers have been one of the most successful small market franchises in MLB. They have won at least 75 games every year since 2005. Two 90-win seasons. However, there is no doubt that the failure to obtain quality pitching has not only limited past success but will also bring the current run of success to an end if they stay on the same path. The Rays have four 90 win seasons since 2008. The Reds are the other small market team that appears to be on the path to having several chances at a deep playoff run.

 

A rebuild guarantees nothing. This team obviously isn't nearly as bad as it has been playing. The Pirates and Royals are showing signs of success, but they have both been "rebuilding" for over a decade with repeated failures. There is still no guarantee that either franchise will even end their respective playoff droughts, make a World Series, or maintain their success for more than one or two seasons. The Twins, once the model small market franchise, are now stuck in mediocrity after failing to advance past the ALCS. Even worse, there are a number of mid-market teams with tens of millions of more revenue that the Brewers who have been mediocre for ages--Seattle is a perfect example, they have the once-prized Brewers scouting director who has accomplished nothing of significance in 4 1/2 years. The Blue Jays are a trainwreck. If Melvin had an extra $20 million/year to spend on pitching, the Brewers would likely be one of the most dominant teams in the National League and still have a payroll barely above the league average.

 

Despite the struggles, I am strongly opposed to firing Melvin. Melvin is not perfect, but the Brewers are still in a far better position than many other small market franchises. If they find a GM that is good at developing pitching, they will almost certainly become deficient other areas that may become the future achilles heel. I do think there should be major changes and additional investment at the scouting and player development level. All indications are that the new TV contracts are going to put the Brewers farther behind financially in upcoming years, so if they do replace Melvin, all attention should be focused at the minor leagues. Also, if they do commit to a multi-year rebuilding, Ryan Braun should be traded. There is no point to having him sit out the prime of his career in a rebuild and he could net more high-level pitching prospects than the rest of the team combined.

 

Finally, I just wonder how much of the pitching failure is caused by Miller Park. Top-level pitching can be good anywhere (see Greinke or Sabathia), but average pitching seems to turn into terrible pitching in hitters ballparks. Perhaps the Brewers should consider moving back the fences in the power alleys and/or raising the LF wall for 2014?

 

I bolded the main part about what you wrote that everybody here needs to really think about and understand, before they call for the team to rebuild. It could very well mean this team wont compete for 5-10+ years. I as a fan don't want that. However, I'm in favor of trading a couple key players right now depending on the players we get in return. I would want a top 25 prospect for each of the following players or my answer is no, Gallardo, Hart, Lohse, Ramirez and Gomez. If the Brewers have to include a prospect or two in a trade involving these players, then so be it. Also, I view Braun and Segura as untradeable. They are the faces of the Brewers franchise and they won't be traded.

 

those two posts basically sum up my feelings. i don't want a total rebuild because their is no guarantee that it will be successful. the brewers aren't the yankees. the team can't drop a couple hundred million and fix the problems overnight. i dont want the brewers to end up like the royals or pirates. those 2 teams have been stuck in all-out rebuild for a long time. i realize that it isn't wise to keep trading away prospects in order to stay competitive. i realize that the team does need to improve their scouting when it comes to pitching. however there is a lot of talent on this team right now. i dont think i want to see the team risk a rebuild during the prime years of Braun's career. I want the team to remain competitive. Maybe some creative contracts.

[PrinceFielderx1]

Wrong, they would have good results.

 

I am not trying to make a point, just state my opinion.

 

We'll I was making a point in that this team can't go on a 30 game winning streak, because that would mean they have the starting pitching, which they don't. That would also mean that had a good team. You did contradict your opinion without knowing it.

[logan82]

No, I didn't. Talent≠results. We can have a good run with a bad team.

[PrinceFielderx1]

No, I didn't. Talent≠results. We can have a good run with a bad team.

 

A 15 game winning streak maybe. A 30 game winning streak? No, not at all. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. We aren't getting anywhere.

[TheCrew07]

If every time the team "goes south" you whine about the owners and management and stop watching games, then yes, you are a fair weather fan. Call it "belittling" if you want, but I don't know any other way to put it.

 

How can you even make claims like that? The same people have been trying to make the same points regardless of winning, losing, in season, out of season, spring training, whatever... We need young players to recycle the roster, we need young impact pitching because we aren't able to afford it in FA, and so on. I probably post on that subject 3 times regardless of what happens with the MLB team and for the record I didn't have any fun as a fan in 2011 because 1 key injury would have brought the whole thing crashing down.

 

We've been living on a razor thin margin for error with an aging and expensive roster, no team that operates in that manner in any sport will thrive for very long. It happened to my Red Wings in hockey when Stevie Y got old, it happened to the Cubs and Boston when they got old in MLB, it happend to the Packers when Mike Sherman was the GM constantly trying to plug holes with aging and declining players. It doesn't the matter, history has proven that successful teams which don't cycle talent end up needed a massive rebuild. That's the not the way it has to go, that's the way GMs tend to operate because it's extremely difficult to continually draft and develop talent. The teams that embrace the concept of turning over the roster a little bit at a time will compete long-term, those that don't are in for tough years down the road.

 

I really have a hard time believing people are doing any research on these counter arguments, someone posted earlier that the TB strategy wasn't working because they had fallen on hard times recently.... are you kidding me? from 2008-2012 they finished over .500 every year and won more than 90 games in every season but 2009. They've been to the WS, they've competed against the largest markets in the toughest division in baseball over that stretch. That's being competitive year in and year out. Ohh and by the way, they have best AAA rotation I've ever seen with no place to put anyone unless there are injuries... Alex Colome, Chris Archer, Jake Odorizzi, Mike Montgomery, and Alex Torres... ya, they are clearly on the wrong track as an organization.

 

The Brewers on the other hand have won 90 games twice, have won 1 playoff series, and we have a bad farm system. How are we remotely comparable to TB, Texas, or St. Louis?

 

Yet every time the deficiencies in the Brewers organization building strategy are brought up other posters take it to the extreme of a "complete rebuild" when that's not even what the majority are suggesting, barely anyone wants a rebuild, however it's getting awfully hard to ignore that dark cloud coming our way. There's no such thing as playing "win now" every season and staying remotely competitive when we don't have a level playing field from the start. All the points that are made for a wider or long-term view of the organization seem to be continually dismissed by the same posters as fantasy, unrealistic, we aren't true fans, or whatever other cliche that one wants to throw around.

 

If the concept of cycling talent was truly understood and appreciated, regardless if you agree or not, there wouldn't be garbage dismissive posts regarding the idea with the adjectives I already pointed out or throw away statements like "prospects fail". As I said very few people want to rebuild but the reality is that if we don't make more moves like the Greinke trade last year that's exactly what is going to happen and that's why posters like me are bitter, because that eventuality doesn't have to come about. We have no more prospects to trade for pitching, we can't afford it, we aren't developing it... this should be so easy to see and understand. We won't win without pitching and if we don't trade for it, how do we acquire it?

 

In the post season it doesn't matter how good our offense is if our pitching doesn't match up. If you don't believe me go do the research yourself, ESPN's MLB stat page is good for that sort of thing, it's nearly impossible to win a World Series if you get out pitched. The only way it can happen is if the opposing team plays horrible defense and continually gives away unnecessary/unearned runs throughout the series.

 

Those posters that want to realistically contend every year know that we have to possess young and cost controlled impact pitching to do so, but we don't have it now and there are very few ways for us to acquire it. If some combination of Peralta, Hellweg, Thornburg, and Nelson (I'm not sure Pena is a legit starter at this time) don't get there we're screwed because we have no impact pitching down the chain until Jorge Lopez at WI who's very slowly improving but is likely 3 years away from MLB best case. With those pitchers I would put the odds on us getting enough impact pitching in house to make a serious run at anything somewhere under 25%. I read about and follow those guys every day, we don't have a Gallardo in the minors, we don't even have a Parra right now. People that post anything about Jungmann and Bradley being top of the rotation starters clearly aren't doing their homework because they don't stack up statistically or stuff wise with the top prospects in the game.

 

It's impossible to have rationale discussions about this stuff because the conversation always degenerates to meaningless cliches and posters throwing barbs at one another. People should be able to post opinions on both sides of the fence without basically being called idiots, which is what ends up happening way too often. At least make a legitimate effort to understand the other side of the argument even if you don't agree so we can discuss the issues like adults. I've grown very weary of, "this is the way it happened so nothing else could have been done", it's simply not true, not in baseball and certainly not in life, there's always another path if you look hard enough.

 

We aren't competitive year in and year out because developing impact pitching hasn't ever been an organizational priority, it's that simple. There's no excusing it away, that's where we've been, that's where we are, and that's likely going to be our future with the current regime in place. That's why so many posters in this thread aren't upbeat about the future, the storm has been brewing for a long time and we've reached the point where the organization no longer has the resources to plug all the holes. We have depth at 1B and the OF, we could move MLB players at those positions for help and get by with the depth behind them for help, but what are the odds a trade like that actually happens? We don't have the prospects to buy another short-term solution, in 2014 the payroll is going to be over 100 million so there's no help coming (unless it's a deferred money contract to has been pitcher) in FA until at least 2015.

 

We're standing in quicksand, slowly drowning, but we won't throw ourselves a life line even though we have them available. Realistically our only hope is that Gallardo and Peralta get on track and then 1 of Thornburg, Hellweg, or Nelson become a top of the rotation guy. Most scouts think Nelson is a #3 best case and they are split on Thornburg/Hellweg as starters in the future. If our internal pitching at the top of the minors doesn't develop it's going to be rough for a while.

[logan82]

No, I didn't. Talent≠results. We can have a good run with a bad team.

 

A 15 game winning streak maybe. A 30 game winning streak? No, not at all. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. We aren't getting anywhere.

I guess I will just go back and change it to a 15 game win streak. Forgive me my little hyperbole.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

If every time the team "goes south" you whine about the owners and management and stop watching games, then yes, you are a fair weather fan. Call it "belittling" if you want, but I don't know any other way to put it.

 

How can you even make claims like that? The same people have been trying to make the same points regardless of winning, losing, in season, out of season, spring training, whatever... We need young players to recycle the roster, we need young impact pitching because we aren't able to afford it in FA, and so on. I probably post on that subject 3 times regardless of what happens with the MLB team and for the record I didn't have any fun as a fan in 2011 because 1 key injury would have brought the whole thing crashing down.

 

We've been living on a razor thin margin for error with an aging and expensive roster, no team that operates in that manner in any sport will thrive for very long. It happened to my Red Wings in hockey when Stevie Y got old, it happened to the Cubs and Boston when they got old in MLB, it happend to the Packers when Mike Sherman was the GM constantly trying to plug holes with aging and declining players. It doesn't the matter, history has proven that successful teams which don't cycle talent end up needed a massive rebuild. That's the not the way it has to go, that's the way GMs tend to operate because it's extremely difficult to continually draft and develop talent. The teams that embrace the concept of turning over the roster a little bit at a time will compete long-term, those that don't are in for tough years down the road.

 

I really have a hard time believing people are doing any research on these counter arguments, someone posted earlier that the TB strategy wasn't working because they had fallen on hard times recently.... are you kidding me? from 2008-2012 they finished over .500 every year and won more than 90 games in every season but 2009. They've been to the WS, they've competed against the largest markets in the toughest division in baseball over that stretch. That's being competitive year in and year out. Ohh and by the way, they have best AAA rotation I've ever seen with no place to put anyone unless there are injuries... Alex Colome, Chris Archer, Jake Odorizzi, Mike Montgomery, and Alex Torres... ya, they are clearly on the wrong track as an organization.

 

The Brewers on the other hand have won 90 games twice, have won 1 playoff series, and we have a bad farm system. How are we remotely comparable to TB, Texas, or St. Louis?

 

Yet every time the deficiencies in the Brewers organization building strategy are brought up other posters take it to the extreme of a "complete rebuild" when that's not even what the majority are suggesting, barely anyone wants a rebuild, however it's getting awfully hard to ignore that dark cloud coming our way. There's no such thing as playing "win now" every season and staying remotely competitive when we don't have a level playing field from the start. All the points that are made for a wider or long-term view of the organization seem to be continually dismissed by the same posters as fantasy, unrealistic, we aren't true fans, or whatever other cliche that one wants to throw around.

 

If the concept of cycling talent was truly understood and appreciated, regardless if you agree or not, there wouldn't be garbage dismissive posts regarding the idea with the adjectives I already pointed out or throw away statements like "prospects fail". As I said very few people want to rebuild but the reality is that if we don't make more moves like the Greinke trade last year that's exactly what is going to happen and that's why posters like me are bitter, because that eventuality doesn't have to come about. We have no more prospects to trade for pitching, we can't afford it, we aren't developing it... this should be so easy to see and understand. We won't win without pitching and if we don't trade for it, how do we acquire it?

 

In the post season it doesn't matter how good our offense is if our pitching doesn't match up. If you don't believe me go do the research yourself, ESPN's MLB stat page is good for that sort of thing, it's nearly impossible to win a World Series if you get out pitched. The only way it can happen is if the opposing team plays horrible defense and continually gives away unnecessary/unearned runs throughout the series.

 

Those posters that want to realistically contend every year know that we have to possess young and cost controlled impact pitching to do so, but we don't have it now and there are very few ways for us to acquire it. If some combination of Peralta, Hellweg, Thornburg, and Nelson (I'm not sure Pena is a legit starter at this time) don't get there we're screwed because we have no impact pitching down the chain until Jorge Lopez at WI who's very slowly improving but is likely 3 years away from MLB best case. With those pitchers I would put the odds on us getting enough impact pitching in house to make a serious run at anything somewhere under 25%. I read about and follow those guys every day, we don't have a Gallardo in the minors, we don't even have a Parra right now. People that post anything about Jungmann and Bradley being top of the rotation starters clearly aren't doing their homework because they don't stack up statistically or stuff wise with the top prospects in the game.

 

It's impossible to have rationale discussions about this stuff because the conversation always degenerates to meaningless cliches and posters throwing barbs at one another. People should be able to post opinions on both sides of the fence without basically being called idiots, which is what ends up happening way too often. At least make a legitimate effort to understand the other side of the argument even if you don't agree so we can discuss the issues like adults. I've grown very weary of, "this is the way it happened so nothing else could have been done", it's simply not true, not in baseball and certainly not in life, there's always another path if you look hard enough.

 

We aren't competitive year in and year out because developing impact pitching hasn't ever been an organizational priority, it's that simple. There's no excusing it away, that's where we've been, that's where we are, and that's likely going to be our future with the current regime in place. That's why so many posters in this thread aren't upbeat about the future, the storm has been brewing for a long time and we've reached the point where the organization no longer has the resources to plug all the holes. We have depth at 1B and the OF, we could move MLB players at those positions for help and get by with the depth behind them for help, but what are the odds a trade like that actually happens? We don't have the prospects to buy another short-term solution, in 2014 the payroll is going to be over 100 million so there's no help coming (unless it's a deferred money contract to has been pitcher) in FA until at least 2015.

 

We're standing in quicksand, slowly drowning, but we won't throw ourselves a life line even though we have them available. Realistically our only hope is that Gallardo and Peralta get on track and then 1 of Thornburg, Hellweg, or Nelson become a top of the rotation guy. Most scouts think Nelson is a #3 best case and they are split on Thornburg/Hellweg as starters in the future. If our internal pitching at the top of the minors doesn't develop it's going to be rough for a while.

 

perfect post. the brewers have gotten by with band-aids the last few years. the brewers are out of band-aids. there are no more prospects left that are good enough to net the team an ace pitcher. a minor rebuild is necessary. aramis, hart, or both could bring back good prospects. the brewers just cannot keep ignoring pitching. the cardinals kicked the brewers @ss in 2011 because they had pitching. the cardinals had 2 aces in carpenter and wainwright, a solid #3 in jamie garcia, edwin jackson was decent, and i dont remember the #5 guy. the cardinals are going to keep kicking the brewers @ss because they have young talented pitching prospects and the brewers don't. the brewers have a bunch of #3's, #4's, and #5's. how are fans supposed to be excited about the future if there are no good pitching prospects in the system? it doesn't matter how great an offense is if they have to be perfect every game because the defense sucks. the brewers offense is great, but that gets neutralized by the crappy pitching. brewers hitters probably feel like they have to be perfect because the pitching is going to get rocked.

 

i am expecting more of the same high 70's to mid 80's win range for the next 5 years. that to me is mediocre. its nice that the team won't be crap, but it sucks that it's likely that they won't win a championship during the time span. if a good hitter or hitting prospect has to get traded to acquire pitching then so be it. the brewers have more than enough hitting. it's about time they sacrifice some hitting for pitching. the brewers were a huge success in 2011 because of pitching (even though it was flawed). they flopped in the playoffs because 3 out of the 5 starters turned into crap. still though the team had a great year because they had talented pitching despite it's flaws.

 

this current staff doesn't have the talent that the 2011 staff had. The team had an ace in greinke, gallardo got bumped down to #2, marcum pitched like a #1 for most of the year, wolf was a real solid #4, and i think was narveson was the #5 pitcher. the bullpen was lights out. my point is that you need pitching to win.

[Nottso]

These are my perceptions. I could easily be misremembering and I'm far too lazy to research every draft so if I'm off please correct me; politely.

 

When Dean Taylor was hired, the Brewers had the worst farm in baseball. Taylor was extremely blunt and said "The entire organization is in a shambles and needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up. That's what I intend to do. If you expect the big league club to win in a couple of years I'm not the man for the job" (or words to that effect). I, for one, was elated.

 

A couple of years later, the big league club was not winning and Taylor got the hook. Yargh. But, the farm was already very strong. In fact I think I remember hearing that it had become one of the best, if not the best, farms in all of baseball. In just a couple of years. While Melvin/Jack Z hit on a couple of draft picks, especially early on, here we are again. The farm is barren.

 

In my mind, Melvin's draft strategy has been reactive and horrible. "We have no hitters?" Draft hitters for a few years. "Now we have no pitchers?" Draft pitchers for a few years. For the life of me I can't understand why we haven't drafted in a more balanced manner. Need pitchers? Fine, draft mostly pitchers, but at least draft some hitters. Need hitters? Fine, draft mostly hitters, but at least draft some pitchers.

 

Again, my perceptions could be off. I'm old and chock full of narcotic pain meds. Feel free to correct me but please do so politely.

[Surhoff5]

perfect post. the brewers have gotten by with band-aids the last few years. the brewers are out of band-aids. there are no more prospects left that are good enough to net the team an ace pitcher. a minor rebuild is necessary. aramis, hart, or both could bring back good prospects. the brewers just cannot keep ignoring pitching. the cardinals kicked the brewers @ss in 2011 because they had pitching. the cardinals had 2 aces in carpenter and wainwright, a solid #3 in jamie garcia, edwin jackson was decent, and i dont remember the #5 guy.

 

The above post about the Cards in 2011 is just so far off

 

1) Wainwright was out all year and didn't pitch

2) The Cards didn't have a starter go more than 5 innings all series.

 

They won because Larussa managed circles around RR who managed the series like the regular season. Also because David Freese hit like Babe Ruth and Albert Pujols hit like, well Albert Pujols.

[JimH5]

Hope you're getting pain relief, Nottso. . .

 

I remember that sense from Taylor-that he had straight talk about needing to temper expectations about the major league team while rebuilding the minors.

 

I'm not really sure what to think about his drafts. They netted Corey Hart, JJ Hardy and Prince Fielder in his 3 years, so I guess that's good.

 

But I think a team should do better than just 1 quality player per year. Otherwise it takes 25 years to recycle the roster.

 

Melvin's drafts haven't even produced that.