General thoughts on the franchise.

[JackNicholson1974]

This team reminds me of many late 90s early 2000s teams. Core of good hitters, above average bullpen and ZERO starting pitchers.

[logan82]

Someone answer this. Why do major league teams have batting and pitching coaches if some seem to think they do nothing?

They don't "Do nothing." They are just all so similar it makes no real difference.

[thebruce44]

Someone answer this. Why do major league teams have batting and pitching coaches if some seem to think they do nothing?

They don't "Do nothing." They are just all so similar it makes no real difference.

 

I think there is a bell curve as well. A guy like Dave Duncan or Mike Maddux seem to have continued success so there has to be something there.

 

Ethierl, I think you are coming into this discussion at a very late stage. Calling for RR and DM to be fired implies changing out the coaching staff as well. But you aren't going to see a lot of people calling for the pitching/hitting coaches to be let go with RR and DM staying.

[Thurston Fluff]

But you aren't going to see a lot of people calling for the pitching/hitting coaches to be let go with RR and DM staying.

 

Count me as one who would keep Melvin and RRR but fire Kranitz. Not because of this season but his overall body of work just doesn't impress me. On the hitting side I think the injuries to Braun, Hart and Ramirez really hurt. The Brewers are a power hitting team with their three best power hitters gone or struggling through injuries.

[brewmann04]

I think they ask RR to make some changes to his staff after the season.

[BarneyStinston]

Someone answer this. Why do major league teams have batting and pitching coaches if some seem to think they do nothing?

I think they are simply there to organize practice and improve efficiency. Similar to the jobs of a bat or ball boy, we can probably function without them, but it can slow down day to day business without them. Anybody can do the job. Firings are only symbolic moves. They all are recycled and get new jobs on other teams in the industry anyway.

[Thurston Fluff]

Someone answer this. Why do major league teams have batting and pitching coaches if some seem to think they do nothing?

I think they are simply there to organize practice and improve efficiency. Similar to the jobs of a bat or ball boy, we can probably function without them, but it can slow down day to day business without them. Anybody can do the job. Firings are only symbolic moves. They all are recycled and get new jobs on other teams in the industry anyway.

 

I disagree. When Lohse went to St Louis he was told by the pitching coach he was going to start throwing 2 seam fastballs. Until that point he was a 4 seam fastball guy. Rick Peterson was into fixing mechanics that lead to injuries. He promoted a whole line of things that helps pitchers long term. That seems more than a bat boy to me.

[LouisEly]

The job of the pitching coach is to analyze and fix mechanics. Many slumps are the result of small mechanical faults that result in decreased control/accuracy and tipping pitches (hitters know what's coming); it's not difficult to occasionally get mechanics out of whack over the course of a long season. It's like a swing coach in golf. In-game the pitching coach assists with scouting reports on how to pitch certain hitters (you'll notice on some pinch hitters the pitching coach will come out to the mound).

 

When things are going well the pitching coach doesn't have much to do. When things aren't going well the pitching coach should be analyzing video and watching bullpen/side sessions and getting hands-on. Thus the criticism of Kranitz - he's not fixing guys. They are regressing even though they are in their prime (Gallardo, Estrada) or their minor league performance projects better than their actual major league performance (Peralta, Fiers, Burgos).

[scuttlebutts]

Kranitz is eveyones friend, especially the fans. This team is never ready to play. How many games have we gotten behind after the first inning? That IS coaching!

[SoupTown]

So, the concenus is to just 'hang in there' for a while. We cant trade anyone, because we dont have anyone 'ready' to fill in for them. Well. I am tired of the 'ready' of the guys that are here. So, we should just glide out the year. Trade nothing. Pretend that 2013 was dress rehersal for 2014. 2013 we had bad luck, hey. 2014 we will have good luck with the same players and leap into the playoffs.

 

I actually like the construction of this 2013 team. But I grossly overestimated the quality of the players. They are just NOT GOOD. They are evil or criminals. They just aint good. I want YOUNG and CHEAP 'aint good'. I detest OLD and EXPENSIVE 'aint good'.

[joepepsi]

So, the concenus is to just 'hang in there' for a while. We cant trade anyone, because we dont have anyone 'ready' to fill in for them. Well. I am tired of the 'ready' of the guys that are here. So, we should just glide out the year. Trade nothing. Pretend that 2013 was dress rehersal for 2014. 2013 we had bad luck, hey. 2014 we will have good luck with the same players and leap into the playoffs.

I think this team is better than their record. The question is, even if they play better are they good enough to compete in 2014? I think the answer is no. For that reason, several players are tradeable and should be shopped.

 

Here's my list:

Yo

Lohse

KRod

Axford

Ramirez

Weeks

Aoki

[monty57]

This team reminds me of many late 90s early 2000s teams. Core of good hitters, above average bullpen and ZERO starting pitchers.

 

I've thought this as well. I remember thinking with guys like Sexson, Burnitz, Jenkins, Cirillo, Vina, Loretta, etc we should "have a chance this year," and yet we were never able to crack the .500 mark. Until we come to the realization that a handful of good position players and maybe a decent pitcher or two surrounded by a bunch of replacement level guys will never be a good team, we will continue to play bad baseball. However, there will still be people (perhaps blinded by "Brewer glasses" as I was in the '90s) that think "we have a good core, so we should be able to compete."

 

For the past couple of years the MLB team has lost talented players and replaced them with less talented players. Unless some drastic changes are made, this trend will continue into the future, as we don't have the talent in the minors or the payroll flexibility to replace the guys who will leave over the next couple of years with similar talent. In other words, we're much less talented than we were a couple of years ago, but we're probably more talented than we will be in a couple of years. That's sad, since we stink this year.

 

We absolutely need to find a way of getting good, young, inexpensive talent into the system. Had we made some moves in the past (or not made some moves we did), we probably wouldn't need a rebuild. Since the Brewers' brass (and many fans) demanded that we do everything possible to win in a short window, we really need to take some drastic measures to get the franchise back on track.

 

I hope and pray that Gallardo will put some good starts together, that Weeks will stay hot, and that Ramirez's knee doesn't collapse, as trading a few of the veteran "chips" we have is now necessary. If we can land a few gems in these trades, things will look a lot better. Let's just hope we don't end up with returns like we got in the 90's for our stars like Burnitz and Cirillo.

 

My optimistic side still has some belief that if we can land these couple of gems, and free up tens of millions of dollars a year, we could turn things around in a relatively short time frame. Unfortunately, the pessimist/realist is beating the optimist into submission.

[JohnBriggs12]

Look things change fast in today's game. It seemed like yesterday, when both the Giants and the Phillies had dream rotations. The Dodgers were thought to have the same a few short months ago. How are these teams doing?

 

The fact that Pittsburgh and St. Louis are both having great seasons is making the road seem much tougher for the Brewers but that can change fast too. The Brewers have a good enough core that turning things around isn't that far fetched.

 

While watching guys like Peralta and Hellweg can be tough sometimes, when you see their stuff, you can't help but think good things are not that far off.

[brewmann04]

The issue with Both are Control if they can get past that i liked them both.

[thebruce44]

This team reminds me of many late 90s early 2000s teams. Core of good hitters, above average bullpen and ZERO starting pitchers.

 

I've thought this as well. I remember thinking with guys like Sexson, Burnitz, Jenkins, Cirillo, Vina, Loretta, etc we should "have a chance this year," and yet we were never able to crack the .500 mark. Until we come to the realization that a handful of good position players and maybe a decent pitcher or two surrounded by a bunch of replacement level guys will never be a good team, we will continue to play bad baseball. However, there will still be people (perhaps blinded by "Brewer glasses" as I was in the '90s) that think "we have a good core, so we should be able to compete."

 

I don't think people were blinded by "Brewer glasses" as much as just missing the mark when it came to projecting our starting pitching. I was guilty of thinking we were going to get above average production from Yo, Lohse, Estrada, and one of Fiers/Peralta/whoever stepped up. It seemed like a decent expectation given what those guys had done in the past. Instead all of those guys are on pace to be below a WAR of 2 (aka below average).

[paul253]

The fact that Pittsburgh and St. Louis are both having great seasons is making the road seem much tougher for the Brewers but that can change fast too.

 

Things can change but only if the Brewers accept the fact that they need to change, which I am not sure they have. If they had we wouldn't have wasted a draft pick on Kyle Lohse or spent pretty much all draft selecting college pitchers who profile as relievers. And I'll be absolutely shocked if the Brewers trade Lohse, Gallardo, or Ramirez, all players who should be moved for the right offer.

 

I think the state of the franchise can be summed up like this. They have enough pieces to stay competitive but they need to start making better decisions. And they need their pitching prospects to step up. Thornburg, Peralta, and Nelson need to show they belong in the majors and Hellweg needs to figure out how to locate his pitchers.

[Thurston Fluff]

The Brewers have a good enough core that turning things around isn't that far fetched.

Nice to see someone else who can see the silver lining. I sometime wonder if our good finish last season makes our outlook more bleak now. It gave us hope the team could compete this season. Something most of us here didn't think would be possible when they traded for Greinke and Marcum. This was supposed to be the beginning of the tough times and it is turning out that way. Even though I thought they could compete if things fell our way I still don't think this season is a sign that all is lost for the foreseeable future. We are seeing some good performances out of some key guys for our future and our young pitching is getting it's feet wet. If normal progression applies this season should be the worst of it for them.

And I'll be absolutely shocked if the Brewers trade Lohse, Gallardo, or Ramirez, all players who should be moved for the right offer.

I think we all agree if the right offer comes along they should be traded. Problem is what kind of offer do you think a semi-injured, expensive, old third baseman can get you? Gallardo is having one of his worst seasons. Is this the time to expect the right offer to come along? Lohse wasn't signed in part because nobody but us wanted to give up a first round draft pick for him. If teams aren't willing to give up a completely raw player of unknown professional ability why would they be willing to give up a more advanced one?

[bjkrautk]

Lohse wasn't signed in part because nobody but us wanted to give up a first round draft pick for him. If teams aren't willing to give up a completely raw player of unknown professional ability why would they be willing to give up a more advanced one?

 

A few quick reasons, just in case that wasn't a rhetorical question:

1) With about half of the season over, the risk of an injury-based implosion (like the one the Brewers are currently suffering through) is significantly diminished;

 

2) Likewise, with a half-season's worth of player evaluation, the risk that the player acquired will be rendered redundant by improved performance from the player being displaced in the linuep decreases.

 

3) By combination of reasons 1 and 2, as well as the performance of the rest of the division (and league), the GM should have a much greater sense as to whether his team is that mythical 'one player away' to making a post-season run.

 

4) There's a vast difference in potential between a 'prospect' and a first round pick. A team's first round draft pick is a potential cornerstone / franchise player. (An overwhelming majority of the players in this month's All-Star game will prove to have been first-round picks.) At the same time, every farm system has players who show Major League potential without the ceiling you hope to get from that first round player. To use recent Brewers in a comparison, it's the difference between trading away a young Corey Hart vs. trading away a young Prince Fielder.

[Thurston Fluff]

Good points. The fourth one though is somewhat debatable. I point to the following quote from that article you posted in another thread.

But unlike the NBA and NFL drafts, which offer much higher hit rates for high picks, baseball teams whiff all the time when given top-five and top-10 opportunities, even when given a bunch in a row.

 

I think the greater point is what is the right deal in terms of both prospects and timing? For example I think Lohse has more value to us if we trade YoGa than if we don't. He would be the one veteran in an otherwise young, inexperienced group. If all he can get us is an low ceiling prospect in that scenario I don't think it is worth trading him.

YoGa is probably not going to get us as much now as we'd like. He might bring us more in the winter. So do we trade Lohse now only to find out he had more value to us than the guy we got for him? If we trade Lohse now then YoGa in the winter then we have to figure out how to help the young staff along which might lead to another Suppan or Wolf signing. Does that help at all?

[RobertR]

I'm confident that next year the Brewers won't get the worst OPS out of first base since 1947(!). That's historically awful.

[Thurston Fluff]

Wouldn't it be ironic if next season we had Halton, Gamel, Green and Morris all playing so well RRR had a hard time finding enough playing time of all of them?

[SoupTown]

Wouldn't it be ironic if next season we had Halton, Gamel, Green and Morris all playing so well RRR had a hard time finding enough playing time of all of them?

 

It will be amazingly hard after we sign that first base, gritty vet.

 

I can see it now. This year we end up with 5 shortstops and 7 catchers and ZERO first basebman. Next year it will be 6 firstbasemen.

 

Why Doug, why?

[Thurston Fluff]

We had three first baseman not even counting Halton and Morris. They are all on the DL for the season.

[SoupTown]

We had three first baseman not even counting Halton and Morris. They are all on the DL for the season.

 

And there were no more first basemen left in baseball and/or the Brewers system? OK, I understand.

 

I wonder how Doug-friendly you will be when we see Lalli called up to the rotation next time we have a rotation injury. That is the same logic: it does not matter what role you play in baseball - according to Doug and RR they are interchangeable.

 

Actually, as I check the Brewers 40 man to get Blake's name spellt right, I think I change my mind. Gindl is the better choice so we get a lefty in the rotation.

[Thurston Fluff]

And there were no more first basemen left in baseball and/or the Brewers system? OK, I understand.

 

No there were more. In fact they had Lalli, Morris and Halton in the system. Two of which they tried. As far as outside the system they did find one. Jaun Francisco. He currently has a .879 OPS for the season. Granted he only has a career .752 OPS but he is young. Still that is better than what we would have got if we went with someone like Lyle Overbay at the start of the season. This whole idea that we didn't have enough options at first base is way off base. To say we had zero is pure hyperbole. We had six, not including Lalli, by my count. It just took some time to find one who could both stay healthy and produce.

 

Just took a look at my numbers. I was was wrong, Francisco doesn't have a .879 OPS for the season. Just for us.