Ron Roenicke getting fired is imminent (Theory)

[JohnBriggs12]

People forget that back in 82, the Brewers were 22-24 at the end of May, 7.5 games back and going nowhere under Buck Rodgers. We all thought back then that the team wasn't playing to its talent level just as we do today. People weren't happy with Rodgers, but most figured after reaching the playoffs the year before albeit in a strike shortened mess of a season with the stupid two halves, that he was safe. That proved to be wrong. The rest is history.

 

This team needs a major shakeup on top. Melvin's been here a decade. He's made some shrewd moves and some bad moves with the roster but his managerial hires have left a lot to be desired. It's time. Roenicke is uninspiring Firing Kranitz looks like a repeat of last year's firing of Kyles. They need to look to the top.

 

Narron is the obvious choice as interim but how about Ed Sedar? I think that would bring about the same kind of clubhouse boost that Kuenn's surprise hiring did back in the day.

[KCBrewerfan34]

Guys the person who should be fired is Bruce Seid, he basically has produced nothing of consequence in his 4 drafts. Awful awful awful. Melvin making the Gomez and Greinke trade gives him ALOT leeway.

[Invader3K]

If Attanasio really does make the ax fall in the next few weeks, I would hope Melvin, Seid, Roenicke, and Kranitz would all be gone together. No point in holding on to major parts of what would be seen as a failed regime. Of course, the upcoming draft starting June 6th would complicate this.

[brewmann04]

I agree the draft really has not done anything and look at the reports from the Minors and see if anyone is looking like a top prospect.

[logan82]

I wouldn't imagine anything gets done until after the signing period after the draft. I think the ax falls on Melvin first. Ron gets the boot after the season and Seid hangs out for one more year.

[trwi7]

I can't imagine Seid hangs out for another year, especially if Melvin is gone. The new GM will want to bring in his own guys. Seid should be on thin ice regardless of whether or not Melvin is fired.

[adambr2]

The new GM will want to bring in his own guys.

 

Considering this entire FO at both the MLB and MiLB level need to be gutted, that's fine with me.

[3and2Fastball]

what are they? 5-20 in the last 25 games? Still think Roenicke's job is safe & sound?

[logan82]

I don't see Melvin getting the opportunity to hire another manager. Getting rid of Seid in addition to Melvin seems like to much turnover for an owner to stomach in a short period of time.

[Invader3K]

I don't see Melvin getting the opportunity to hire another manager. Getting rid of Seid in addition to Melvin seems like to much turnover for an owner to stomach in a short period of time.

 

I guess the question is: Does Seid really deserve to stay if Melvin leaves?

[TooLiveBrew]

what are they? 5-20 in the last 25 games? Still think Roenicke's job is safe & sound?

Did anyone ever say his job was safe & sound? I think people just disagreed with you that he would be fired imminently.

[nate82]

what are they? 5-20 in the last 25 games? Still think Roenicke's job is safe & sound?

 

Yes, he will be the manager until the end of the year and possibly even longer. I don't see MA changing mnangers this time around. The team isn't even as good as the team that Yost had when he was fired. I also believe MA really likes Roenicke as the manager of the team and will have him kept even if there is a new GM.

[TURBO]

I agree with Nate.

 

RRR's job is secure. I don't think many people in the organization think this is his fault, which mimics a lot of poster's feelings on this board.

 

Personally, I want him gone yesterday. Fire the whole stinking bunch and start over.

[logan82]

I don't see Melvin getting the opportunity to hire another manager. Getting rid of Seid in addition to Melvin seems like to much turnover for an owner to stomach in a short period of time.

 

I guess the question is: Does Seid really deserve to stay if Melvin leaves?

Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

 

I think Melvin and Seid need to go. I don't think both will go at the same time. I imagine a new GM would want to hire their own guy as director of scouting. I have no idea how long that will take but I don't think there will be a complete front office overhaul within a few months. I really don't see Melvin getting fired this year either to be honest.

 

I really don't see any reason to fire Ron. Mind you I don't really care for him as the manager but he seems like a nice even keeled guy to have around a rebuilding team.

[TheCrew07]

Seid and his staff won't go until after the draft the finalized and all of the players are signed. It would be a colossal disaster to let them all go before the draft. I guess one could argue what does it matter? However the reality is that no good person is going to leave their current team hanging now so we're going to have count on Seid and his staff at least one more time.

 

I've been calling for Melvin to go for a long time, maybe I've become overly apathetic but I have a hard time believing it will actually happen. I think he'd do much better for a team with greater resources and likewise I think MA fancies himself the owner of a larger market franchise. With that kind of "win now" attitude from the top on down I'm not sure MA would hire the right kind of guy for the job either, DM seems to be the kind of guy he'd be looking for anyway. I think many of us would like someone younger with a good mix of scouting and sabermetrics but that person would be relatively unproven.

 

As for a manager, I'd like a patient teacher who's willing to invest and help young players mature. I can tolerate other shortcomings if the coaching staff is willing to ride out youth through the ups and downs and keep them moving in the right direction. Young players have to be our lifeline as an organization.

[brewmann04]

I think they need to start with the whole Minor league system and that needs to be gutted and start anew. I understand the Baseball draft is a crap shoot but come one.

[I Heart Brewers]

Losing like this is the only way that things can change. Cultures typically don't change in good times. If they keep losing I would hope there is a wholesale house cleaning starting with Melvin. Not sure if a new GM would bring in his own scouting staff or not but really it seems the Brewers need much help in the draft and development aspect of the franchise. Band aid FA signings won't help this franchise even in the short term anymore.

 

If they can change those two areas then there is hope. As long as Antanasio is the owner though he will have say it appears so a GM that is persuasive enough in his principles is most important. And for me the number one principle is a draft and develop philosophy, a long term view.

[KCBrewerfan34]

I think they need to start with the whole Minor league system and that needs to be gutted and start anew. I understand the Baseball draft is a crap shoot but come one.

 

Crapshoot, Look at the Cardinals system, if you're going to wack Melvin (I don't think he should go) your #1 target is the top guy for the Cardinals, bring him in as GM, he's been unbelievable, they have so much talent coming up they really don't know what to do with it. Bring his scouts as well.

 

(Miller, Lyon, Gast, Wacha (pitching tomorrow), Martinez has been up. I'm sure Im missing a few.

[JohnBriggs12]

what are they? 5-20 in the last 25 games? Still think Roenicke's job is safe & sound?

 

Yes, he will be the manager until the end of the year and possibly even longer. I don't see MA changing mnangers this time around. The team isn't even as good as the team that Yost had when he was fired. I also believe MA really likes Roenicke as the manager of the team and will have him kept even if there is a new GM.

 

He won't like him nearly as much when people stop buying tickets. Yost was fired with a playoff caliber team that he wasn't getting to the finish line. Part of that was the division at the time was a lot weaker than it is now. Roenicke should be getting more out of this team than he is. There is definitely something missing. Call it an intangible, but we're not seeing good baseball. Players are to blame for sure too. Gallardo isn't the same guy. Even the guys with the gaudy numbers have had trouble in key situations. Injuries have been a factor for sure, but should not be used to excuse this mess.

[adambr2]

what are they? 5-20 in the last 25 games? Still think Roenicke's job is safe & sound?

 

Yes, he will be the manager until the end of the year and possibly even longer. I don't see MA changing mnangers this time around. The team isn't even as good as the team that Yost had when he was fired. I also believe MA really likes Roenicke as the manager of the team and will have him kept even if there is a new GM.

 

I disagree about this team not being as good as Yost's. Well for one, that team did end up going 90-72. So even if you say the talent is comparable, the performances are obviously not.

 

2008 team had Prince, Weeks, Hardy, Hall, Kendall, Hart, Cameron, and Braun.

 

2013 team has Weeks, Segura, Ramirez, Lucroy, Aoki, Gomez, and Braun.

 

Almost every position is an upgrade for the 2013 team. Weeks is worse than that year, but Braun is better -- he "only" OPS'ed .888 that year, very low by his standards. Hardy was good but Segura is better, Ramirez and Lucroy are enormous upgrades from Hall and Kendall, Gomez is a big upgrade from Cameron, and Aoki/Hart is probably a wash in RF. The only big downgrade is at 1st, and that will get better with Hart's return.

 

2008 had Sheets but not Yo. The rest of the rotation for half of the year looks about the same quality-wise as we have now -- Suppan, Parra, and Dave Bush. Lohse is a better #2 than any of those guys. Of course, 2008 added CC in the second half and he was fantastic.

 

The bullpens are close to a wash. Solomon Torres was our closer in 2008. That was the year of the Gagne disaster. If anything, there's more talent in the pen now.

 

If 2008 was an overall more talented squad, it wasn't by a ton.

 

I think those who defend Roenicke were going to blame the talent level on the team as being insufficient when things unfolded like this no matter what, but I just don't see it. Was anyone honestly, back in March, figuring on us being about 12 games under .500 at this point?

[yoshii8]

I'd like to see Ed Sedar given a chance to manage if Roenicke is let go. It seems like he has a ton of respect from the players.

[brewmann04]

we need to see a change in the way we draft as much as a manager change.

[nate82]

 

 

I think those who defend Roenicke were going to blame the talent level on the team as being insufficient when things unfolded like this no matter what, but I just don't see it. Was anyone honestly, back in March, figuring on us being about 12 games under .500 at this point?

 

The talent is insufficient and the pitching staff is no where near as good as the 08' team even with Suppan in the rotation. People forget that Sheets was the best pitcher in the NL for the first half of the year and Parra actually was rather good in the first half of the year. Right now there are three Dave Bush's on the team and not a single Sheets so your W/L expectancy is going to go down.

 

I don't think this team was going to be this bad but they were a .500 team at best to begin the season and leaning more towards a team that would finish below .500. How far below .500 is debatable as a lot of things can happen between the start of the season and the end of the season. A team can go very cold in the beginning of the year and then warm up for a month or two. This team right now doesn't have the pitching it had in 08' and it is not even close. This is where there is a huge discrepancy of talent between the two teams the pitching is bad in the rotation and it is killing the bullpen. The bullpen maybe better than what the Brewers had in 08' but it is absolutely getting killed by its starting pitchers who on a normal basis can barely make it out of the 5th inning everyday. The Brewers bullpen has already thrown a total of 173.2 IP so far this year!!!!! only the Astros, Blue Jays, Twins, Pirates, and Rockies have thrown more innings than the Brewers bullpen. Only the Pirates and the Rockies have a winning record of those 5 other teams.

 

There is not much an offense can do when your pitching fails to go longer than 6 innings on a consistent basis. If your starters are only going about 6 innings every game that means you are putting out your worst relief pitcher more than you should be. The manager is not the problem it is the roster construction that is the problem. MA made a mistake and went with Lohse this off season and thought he would put the team over the top or make them more competitive. Lohse is not that kind of a pitcher to be leaning on to do that as he is not an ace nor is he a #1 or #2 type pitcher. He is not going to carry a team to victory by averaging 7+ innings every start and keeping the team in the game. Lohse is not a Sabathia, Sheets, or even a Greinke type of a pitcher and this is what this team is missing. Without a pitcher like that you are looking at a best possible outcome of a .500 team maybe a little bit over if everything goes right.

 

Now everything is not going right for the Brewers and this is the scenario where if everything does not go right for the Brewers they are a sub .500 team and you are looking at a team that is probably in the discussion of being in the bottom 10 of the league. The offense is great but the pitching is not and your offense is only going to take you so far.

 

I believe Roenicke is actually perfect for this team that has been constructed and going forward Roenicke is the answer as he is a perfect manager for younger players as he manages to their strengths. You need a manager who has an aggressive approach for younger players as they play more aggressive. Roenicke would be a bad manager if you want to keep on doing what the Brewers have been doing and that is adding more and more veteran players.

[logan82]

I think they are a better than .500 team if everything went right. Not a playoff team mind you.

[adambr2]

 

 

I think those who defend Roenicke were going to blame the talent level on the team as being insufficient when things unfolded like this no matter what, but I just don't see it. Was anyone honestly, back in March, figuring on us being about 12 games under .500 at this point?

 

The talent is insufficient and the pitching staff is no where near as good as the 08' team even with Suppan in the rotation. People forget that Sheets was the best pitcher in the NL for the first half of the year and Parra actually was rather good in the first half of the year. Right now there are three Dave Bush's on the team and not a single Sheets so your W/L expectancy is going to go down.

 

I don't think this team was going to be this bad but they were a .500 team at best to begin the season and leaning more towards a team that would finish below .500. How far below .500 is debatable as a lot of things can happen between the start of the season and the end of the season. A team can go very cold in the beginning of the year and then warm up for a month or two. This team right now doesn't have the pitching it had in 08' and it is not even close. This is where there is a huge discrepancy of talent between the two teams the pitching is bad in the rotation and it is killing the bullpen. The bullpen maybe better than what the Brewers had in 08' but it is absolutely getting killed by its starting pitchers who on a normal basis can barely make it out of the 5th inning everyday. The Brewers bullpen has already thrown a total of 173.2 IP so far this year!!!!! only the Astros, Blue Jays, Twins, Pirates, and Rockies have thrown more innings than the Brewers bullpen. Only the Pirates and the Rockies have a winning record of those 5 other teams.

 

There is not much an offense can do when your pitching fails to go longer than 6 innings on a consistent basis. If your starters are only going about 6 innings every game that means you are putting out your worst relief pitcher more than you should be. The manager is not the problem it is the roster construction that is the problem. MA made a mistake and went with Lohse this off season and thought he would put the team over the top or make them more competitive. Lohse is not that kind of a pitcher to be leaning on to do that as he is not an ace nor is he a #1 or #2 type pitcher. He is not going to carry a team to victory by averaging 7+ innings every start and keeping the team in the game. Lohse is not a Sabathia, Sheets, or even a Greinke type of a pitcher and this is what this team is missing. Without a pitcher like that you are looking at a best possible outcome of a .500 team maybe a little bit over if everything goes right.

 

Now everything is not going right for the Brewers and this is the scenario where if everything does not go right for the Brewers they are a sub .500 team and you are looking at a team that is probably in the discussion of being in the bottom 10 of the league. The offense is great but the pitching is not and your offense is only going to take you so far.

 

I believe Roenicke is actually perfect for this team that has been constructed and going forward Roenicke is the answer as he is a perfect manager for younger players as he manages to their strengths. You need a manager who has an aggressive approach for younger players as they play more aggressive. Roenicke would be a bad manager if you want to keep on doing what the Brewers have been doing and that is adding more and more veteran players.

 

First of all the Brewers are not a young team. The days of this team being a bunch of kids running around is long over, the core of the team is made up of established veterans. Obviously there are exceptions, like on any team. But this is the 13th oldest roster in baseball, statistically. Pretty middle of the pack, but not young anymore. The Braves, Nationals, and Cardinals by comparison have far younger rosters.

 

Secondly, I don't understand the correlation between having young players and needing an aggressive approach anyway. I could just as easily argue that the aggressive approach contributes to our struggles with RISP as players may try too hard rather than waiting back and being patient.