The Ron Roenicke Thread

[splitterpfj]

Love him, hate him...have at him...

[bigredrobbo]

Isn't EVERY thread a Ron Roenicke thread?

[Bombers]

Yost couldn't get them to win

Macha couldn't get them to win

RRR took them to the NLCS in his first year and now he can't get them to win

 

To me when will we stop blaming the Manager and start blaming the players or the GM? Maybe Melvin is to blame? We give him so much credit but with 10 years and only 2 playoff appearances, maybe it is time for him to go?

 

We rank last in the NL in ERA this year. We have wasted so many years of good hitting teams because our pitching sucks. Maybe Melvin will finally trade Hart, Ramirez at the deadline and get some top AAA arms ... If he doesn't then maybe it really is time for him to go?

[Bombers]

Isn't EVERY thread a Ron Roenicke thread?

Ha. No kidding

[DHonks]

dear God, if we trade our only hitting and get AAA pitching, then we should officially petition to join the International League.

[TheCrew07]

dear God, if we trade our only hitting and get AAA pitching, then we should officially petition to join the International League.

 

How exactly do the Brewers extend Hart? Another back loaded deal like Ramirez and Lohse have signed? More deferred money? Hart is gone after this season regardless, the way the payroll is structured the Brewers couldn't afford him if they wanted to.

 

Furthermore how would trading a player who's gone after this year, and another who's gone after next year make the Brewers a AAA team? The bottom line is that we need young impact pitching and if 2 of Peralta, Hellweg, Thornburg, and Nelson aren't those guys then what? This continual parade of averagish, aging, and declining FA pitchers continues?

 

The possibility of finishing in 3rd place even with Lohse was the primary argument many had against signing him in the first place. What good does it do to give up a first round pick to miss the playoffs regardless, contract years and deferred money aside for the player being signed?

 

The pitching thing isn't RR's fault nor was in the fault of Macha or Yost before him. There are maybe 2 really good pitching coaches in MLB and the Brewers' best teacher of pitching mechanics is wasting away as the bullpen coach in Milwaukee, what a horrible waste of resources. Is RR the best manager in baseball? No, but he's not the worst either, and I'll say I think he's a better manager than Melvin is a GM.

 

As much as I hate defined bullpen roles, closers, and pretty much everything that goes on with the bullpen, our managers have been working with a razor thin margin for error most years because our pitching has been so bad. Either the starters stink and they have to use the bullpen too much or the pen stinks and as soon as the starters leave the adventure begins. If they try to run the starters too long and they blow up it was a bad call because that what relievers are there for and if the relievers give up the game the starter should have pitched longer. Most the managers have been damned if they do and damned if they don't, it's been a constant no win scenario.

 

The biggest problem has been that outside of Sheets and Sabathia what starters have we had who were efficient enough with their pitches to actually ride into the 7th or 8th in less than 115 pitches? Yo and Greinke mess around too much out of the zone which is why Greinke struggles against more patient line-ups, they aren't attacking in the strike zone throughout the AB. The rest of the guys weren't super talented to begin but pretty all of our pitchers have been right around 6 inning guys. Therefore even when the starting pitching has been good from an ERA standpoint far too many innings over the course of the season were left to the bullpen, and typically your worst pitchers are in the bullpen. If they were "that" good they'd still be starters...

 

We can complain about the manager all we want but the simple truth is the Brewers haven't maintained a pipeline of impact talent coming up to the MLB team nor have the Brewers moved to acquire said talent outside of 1 trade last season, which may have been too little/too late. How many MLB managers are going to make chicken salad from chicken.... you know? Personally I think the managers draw far too much criticism when the true culprit is placed much higher up the chain.

[The stache]

RRR took them to the NLCS in his first year and now he can't get them to win

 

Don't you mean Ryan Braun, Prince Fielder, Yovani Gallardo and Zack Greinke took them to the NLCS? RRR had very little with our getting there, but his dumb decision had quite a lot to do with our not getting by the Cardinals. Starting Mark Kotsay in right field in game 4 over Corey Hart was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen a manager do.

[owbc]

The deck is stacked against them. No small market team can win consistently. Even Tampa is treading water now.

[TURBO]

RRR took them to the NLCS in his first year and now he can't get them to win

 

Don't you mean Ryan Braun, Prince Fielder, Yovani Gallardo and Zack Greinke took them to the NLCS? RRR had very little with our getting there, but his dumb decision had quite a lot to do with our not getting by the Cardinals. Starting Mark Kotsay in right field in game 4 over Corey Hart was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen a manager do.

 

 

Actually, Kotsay started in CF, not RF, but stupidity noted.

 

[Invader3K]

There are a lot of things you can blame a manager for, rightly or wrongly. Having said that, I don't see how you can point fingers at the manager when his starting rotation performs terribly. There's really not much he can do at that point. Right now the Brewers have the worst team ERA in the NL at 4.70, and second worst team WHIP at 1.37 (ahead of only the Padres). How anyone can blame Roenicke for this team's current situation is beyond me.

[Bombers]

RRR took them to the NLCS in his first year and now he can't get them to win

 

Don't you mean Ryan Braun, Prince Fielder, Yovani Gallardo and Zack Greinke took them to the NLCS? RRR had very little with our getting there, but his dumb decision had quite a lot to do with our not getting by the Cardinals. Starting Mark Kotsay in right field in game 4 over Corey Hart was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen a manager do.

I agree ... I was just trying to imply we have had good teams and changing a manager really doesn't have much impact ...

 

In the end I agree with what TheCrew wrote. I just don't see RRR as the easy button of fixes. It runs deeper than the manager

[brwrsfan]

I don't think anyone is saying that players aren't part of the problem here.

 

My biggest gripe with RR, and this was true when we went to the NLCS too, is that I believe he often times makes it MORE difficult for the players to succeed. The best a manager can do, with any players, is to play to their strengths, put them and the team in the best position to succeed.

 

And IMO, he consistently fails to do this. Be it not giving Weeks a single day off during his struggles, making pitching changes that make little to no sense, starting Kotsay in CF in the NLCS. These things were being said even when we were winning, we were just winning despite his numerous gaffes, that often times led me to say we won DESPITE him, not BECAUSE of anything that he did.

[Warning Track Power]

There are a lot of things you can blame a manager for, rightly or wrongly. Having said that, I don't see how you can point fingers at the manager when his starting rotation performs terribly. There's really not much he can do at that point. Right now the Brewers have the worst team ERA in the NL at 4.70, and second worst team WHIP at 1.37 (ahead of only the Padres). How anyone can blame Roenicke for this team's current situation is beyond me.

Watching the Cardinals series last weekend I kept hearing about how one of their philosophies is to pump a first pitch strike to get ahead in the count and put the hitters on defense. How often do we see Yo & Peralta pitch in 2-0 & 3-1 counts? Of course they're going to get hit more frequently when they are behind in the count. Is this a Brewers philosophy? Probably not but it falls on RR & Kranitz to correct their inability to throw strikes then. I think the coaching staff deserves an equal share of blame for the pitching woes.

[adambr2]

The frustrating thing about Roenicke (to me as someone who thinks he has numerous shortcomings as a manager) is that he's pretty much untouchable for awhile yet. Doug and Mark will remind us that we went to the NLCS in 2011, and he's got a built in injury card to play this year which will buy him until at least the end of 2014, even if this year is a chaotic failure.

 

People call out Macha for being boring, and it's unfortunate that he can't relate to his players better, but I'd like to see how many wins Roenicke could have squeezed out of a team with baseball's worst rotation in 2009. I'm guessing easily less than the 80 that Macha got.

[Ennder]

Probably not but it falls on RR & Kranitz to correct their inability to throw strikes then

 

If only it were this easy. Pitchers are erratic, it is hard to fix. The Cardinals are playing way over their heads right now and will come down to earth at some point and will have their own struggles. It is a good rotation but it isn't a historic one like it has pitched so far.

[monty57]

Probably not but it falls on RR & Kranitz to correct their inability to throw strikes then

 

If only it were this easy. Pitchers are erratic, it is hard to fix. The Cardinals are playing way over their heads right now and will come down to earth at some point and will have their own struggles. It is a good rotation but it isn't a historic one like it has pitched so far.

 

Is there a place to find what counts batters get to, and what pitch (and location) is thrown in different counts. I don't know if pitchers are getting behind more this year than they did in the past, as Gallardo has always thrown a lot of pitches to get hitters out (why he has a hard time going more than six innings) and in the minors Peralta has had control issues.

 

If the pitchers are throwing the way they always have, then I'll agree with Ennder that a coach can't just tell the pitcher to throw strikes. If the pitching staff is indeed getting behind a lot more this season, then maybe there's a strategy (at least against some hitters/teams) of trying to get hitters to bite on "pitchers' pitches" early on. In the ever-expanding 3TO world, batters are more willing to let close pitches go by, so nibbling early could lead to them getting behind in counts and then in an effort to not walk the batter, they throw meatballs when they're behind.

 

I remember Mike Maddux had a saying of "throw strikes early so you don't have to throw them late." While it may not work for everyone, if a pitcher has decent control, and the strategy is to throw strikes early, it would make sense that they wouldn't get behind batters as often and would keep their pitch counts down, allowing them to go further into the game. Of course, it would also lead to less strikeouts and more balls in play.

[Ennder]

As a team the Brewers have thrown first pitch strikes only 58.9% of the time which is in the lower third of teams (#22). The Cardinals are #1 at 64.5%. Last year it was 59.1% which was #20 so it is about the same. Their swinging strike % is about the same as last year as well which is surprising considering the teams K% is way down (almost 4% down as a team). Usually when you see that it corrects itself for an individual, never really tracked it for a whole team.

 

I think a large part of this is that Gallardo doesn't like pitching in the cold and we've just had a really tough schedule so far when it comes to the balance of good vs bad offenses faced.

[Thurston Fluff]

Some of the most successful teams like the Cards and Yankees have only had two managers in 20ish years. Now look at the teams that change managers a lot. Which ones win consistently?

It seems to me the teams that do well over a long period of time are also generally ones who don't get rid of the manager every three years or so. I don't think you need the best guy out there as much as a consistent atmosphere for teams to gel in.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I think the role of a MLB team's manager has more to do with how he handles players/relationships around the team than in-game strategy. Evolution of the game has largely taken alot of the managerial pitching decisions away (bullpens with 7th inning, setup, and closer roles doesn't leave much room for pitching change decisions aside from righty/lefty matchups). Fans always complain about batting order when in reality it doesn't make a whole lot of difference where guys hit. Roenicke's philosophy on stealing bases has to do with giving certain players the green light to start games based on pitcher times to the plate and catcher times throwing to 2nd - I think that's better than relying on a pitch-by-pitch series of signs coming from the dugout to the 3rd base coach.

 

At the end of the day, players determine whether teams are successful or not - managers do play a role in keeping their rosters in harmony and putting individuals in positions to succeed. Managers that don't last long tend to have several things in common - management has given them a poor roster to work with and they do a bad job at maintaining clubhouse chemistry.

[logan82]

Some of the most successful teams like the Cards and Yankees have only had two managers in 20ish years. Now look at the teams that change managers a lot. Which ones win consistently?

It seems to me the teams that do well over a long period of time are also generally ones who don't get rid of the manager every three years or so. I don't think you need the best guy out there as much as a consistent atmosphere for teams to gel in.

Are they retained because they are good managers or do they get to keep their job because the team is winning? I believe they keep their job because the team is winning. The difference between a winning and losing manager is where they get hired. I am not saying managers don't make a difference. They do. They are largely kept not based on how good they are but on how good the team that hired them is.

[Warning Track Power]

I remember Mike Maddux had a saying of "throw strikes early so you don't have to throw them late." While it may not work for everyone, if a pitcher has decent control, and the strategy is to throw strikes early, it would make sense that they wouldn't get behind batters as often and would keep their pitch counts down, allowing them to go further into the game. Of course, it would also lead to less strikeouts and more balls in play.

Yes. I love this philosophy. Gallardo is the perfect guy to throw strikes early given the unpredictable nature of how good his slider and curve will be from start to start. It's so frustrating to see so many first pitch balls and 2-0 counts from him. It might just be my overall frustration with Yo in particular but it just seems like his control has never progressed and this year so far has regressed substantially (unsubstantiated claim based on watching games without statistical analysis).

[Ennder]

Gallardo's control is significantly worse now than it was when he first came up and it was in the minors. I always assumed the knee injuries messed up his mechanics but it is really hard to say.

[RockCoCougars]

I've pretty much been a defender of Roenicke, but as I'm sitting here watching Axford give up a leadoff single with a one run lead in the 8th, I've got to bash. If the Brewers lose this game, it's on the manager.

[Polish Falcons]

I've pretty much been a defender of Roenicke, but as I'm sitting here watching Axford give up a leadoff single with a one run lead in the 8th, I've got to bash. If the Brewers lose this game, it's on the manager.

 

So a sawed off bloop single was the tipping point for you?

[RockCoCougars]

I've pretty much been a defender of Roenicke, but as I'm sitting here watching Axford give up a leadoff single with a one run lead in the 8th, I've got to bash. If the Brewers lose this game, it's on the manager.

 

So a sawed off bloop single was the tipping point for you?

 

No, the fact that he allowed Axford to pollute this game is sickening. If they lose, it's on Roenicke.