Why are we so bad at developing pitchers?

[brewcrewdue80]

Yeah, I just went with players that had contributed to the Big League club thus far. We talked about Peralta being our SP Prospect, and he's not giving us a whole lot of value thus far.

 

But it's with those names, that ballpark vs. StL's. I mean really, ARZ is better than Stl with Young Pitching. And they've drafted well. Goldschmidt/Mark Reynolds were late,later round finds. somebody needs to scan them over and pluck from their tree of Scouts/Pitcher Coaches.

[TheCrew07]

AZ is hard to use as poster child organization though, because they are continually making trades both ways regardless whom the GM there is. They buy and sell pitching more than probably any other organization but if they had just kept their young pitchers they'd be in much better shape. Not that being in first place in their division this year stinks or anything, but I'm talking over the last 4-6 years. Skaggs and Bradley will make nice additions to their rotation, I wish we had 2 guys like that at the top of our system.

 

I wouldn't have traded Trevor Bauer or Jarrod Parker but it appears it will work out for them.

[homer]

I wouldn't have traded Max Scherzer. Still scratching my head over that one.

[monty57]

I guess the thing I'd get from Arizona is that while you sometimes trade prospects for veteran pieces to help the MLB team, you can also trade veteran pieces for prospects without it being a "give up."

 

While posters here often reference the prospects we gave up in trade, what's missing is that for years (between Sexson and Greinke), we never traded any veterans for prospects. Continually trading away prospects, while never trading for prospects is a big part of the reason we have such a bad system.

[MJLiverock]

There were a lot of years there, especially in the early years after the Sexson trade where the team didn't have any veteran players that teams would have given much of a prospect for. I remember they traded Podsednik and Vizaino for Carlos Lee trade as one example where they could have went for younger. They also later traded Lee for Coco and could have went the all prospect route there (although they gave up Nelson Cruz who many on here thought was just a AAAA player and got back Nix and minor league pitcher as well). Brady Clark was never really that good but they traded him for Elmer Dessens and could have went for some A ball prospect. The only other guys they could have really parlayed into much would have been maybe Jenkins and of course Sheets.

[rondoman]

What did Ben Hendrickson s dad say?

[torts]

What did Ben Hendrickson s dad say?

 

http://bit.ly/136Cq63

[homer]

There were a lot of years there, especially in the early years after the Sexson trade where the team didn't have any veteran players that teams would have given much of a prospect for. I remember they traded Podsednik and Vizaino for Carlos Lee trade as one example where they could have went for younger. They also later traded Lee for Coco and could have went the all prospect route there (although they gave up Nelson Cruz who many on here thought was just a AAAA player and got back Nix and minor league pitcher as well). Brady Clark was never really that good but they traded him for Elmer Dessens and could have went for some A ball prospect. The only other guys they could have really parlayed into much would have been maybe Jenkins and of course Sheets.

 

 

Doug used to get nuggets for his vets. Carlos Villanueva was the return for Wayne Franklin. That's the thing that always bugged me about his trades. He should be getting some kind of prospect back in each transaction. Milwaukee can't win without a decent farm system.

[The stache]

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3856/metst.png

 

Could we steal away one of the New York Mets pitching coaches, and bring them to Milwaukee please? Maybe they could sneak Noah Syndergaard in with them.

[xisxisxis]

maybe we should just restart this thread. my suggestion:

 

Why are we so bad at developing pitchers?

[Invader3K]

Remember all of the stuff that Ben Hendrickson's dad had to say about the Brewers? Most people dismissed it as someone who thought his kid was better than he really was.

 

Maybe he was spot on.

 

Maybe it was a combination of both.

[LouisEly]

What I was referring to with Ben Hendrickson's dad was that he said the Brewers coaches were constantly messing with his mechanics and how he threw pitches. He said one coach would tell him to throw a pitch one way, and another coach would tell him to throw the same pitch a different way. Bouncing back and forth between the minors and majors he kept getting told differently how to throw pitches.

[xisxisxis]

What I was referring to with Ben Hendrickson's dad was that he said the Brewers coaches were constantly messing with his mechanics and how he threw pitches. He said one coach would tell him to throw a pitch one way, and another coach would tell him to throw the same pitch a different way. Bouncing back and forth between the minors and majors he kept getting told differently how to throw pitches.

 

Earlier this year I read or heard a report about someone who saw Bradley and jungman pitch this spring and they said they looked nothing like the pitchers he saw before the Brewers drafted them. I was shocked considering how short they were in the system, but it also is clear from their results that they are pitching like crap. Mixed messages is definitely one way to mess with someone quickly. Gotta believe their was something to Graham's claims even though the source wasn't so reliable.

[3and2Fastball]

What I was referring to with Ben Hendrickson's dad was that he said the Brewers coaches were constantly messing with his mechanics and how he threw pitches. He said one coach would tell him to throw a pitch one way, and another coach would tell him to throw the same pitch a different way. Bouncing back and forth between the minors and majors he kept getting told differently how to throw pitches.

 

I've been developing a few contacts among ex-pro ballplayers as Coaching in baseball is something I plan on pursuing as a career (more than likely at the High School & College level), and from what I understand what Hendrickson's Dad was saying is certainly not exclusive to the Brewers' organization and not exclusive to pitching either (the same is true with Hitters). I have much more expertise in hitting mechanics than pitching but I've heard similar stories from ex-pitchers too.

 

Rare is the MLB organization that is all on the same page in terms of mechanics/philosophy and how to teach it and most importantly that invests the time to teach it. The organizations that really get that together are often the ones that excel. The Braves in the late 80's/early 90's and the Cardinals of the last decade are good examples of that.

 

The crazy reality is that oftentimes players get way more individualized instruction in college than in the minors.

 

On the flip side sometimes players do have all kinds of things wrong with their mechanics and fixing one thing reveals another flaw and that may have been the case with Hendrickson. I don't know

 

Earlier this year I read or heard a report about someone who saw Bradley and Jungman pitch this spring and they said they looked nothing like the pitchers he saw before the Brewers drafted them. I was shocked considering how short they were in the system, but it also is clear from their results that they are pitching like crap. Mixed messages is definitely one way to mess with someone quickly. Gotta believe their was something to Graham's claims even though the source wasn't so reliable.

 

Some of that is needed. That 4 seamer that hits 94/95 on the radar gun in college is going to get crushed in MLB. A lot of these college pitchers need to adjust and start throwing 90-92 2 seamers with movement. I think that is in part what is going on with Bradley/Jungman

[3and2Fastball]

I was going to add, and this might pertain more to hitting than pitching. Most organizations simply don't invest enough in hitting instruction period. You have 15 hitters on a minor league team, and 1 hitting coach with one roving minor league instructor. Between games and travel there are maybe a few hours to get in cage time and BP. For 15 players. That is about 8 minutes a piece. These kids need 30-60 minutes of daily one on one instruction to correct their mechanics and they simply aren't getting it.

 

On the pitching side there are similar issues with everyone getting in their bullpens and workouts. They might have more 1 on 1 time with the pitching coach than the hitters but it usually isn't enough.

[homer]

I think it's convenient to say that the Brewers have screwed up a bunch of arms. Wouldn't these guys go on to find success elsewhere if that was the case? Not to mention the fact that the Brewers have developed plenty of bullpen guys through the farm system. Their methods haven't seemed to hurt those players.

[3and2Fastball]

I think it's convenient to say that the Brewers have screwed up a bunch of arms. Wouldn't these guys go on to find success elsewhere if that was the case?.

 

Jorge De La Rosa waves hello

[homer]

I think it's convenient to say that the Brewers have screwed up a bunch of arms. Wouldn't these guys go on to find success elsewhere if that was the case?.

 

Jorge De La Rosa waves hello

 

He wasn't a product of the farm system.

[3and2Fastball]

I think it's convenient to say that the Brewers have screwed up a bunch of arms. Wouldn't these guys go on to find success elsewhere if that was the case?.

 

Jorge De La Rosa waves hello

 

He wasn't a product of the farm system.

 

I stand corrected, you are right. Forgot he was in Boston's system before coming to us. Interesting that he was a Diamondback for 3 days before being traded again.

 

He did seem to regress when in the Brewers system (both in AAA and in MLB) and had his strongest seasons both before and after he was in the Brewers organization. However yes he was not a product of the Brewers' system coming up

[homer]

I also think he was out of options so the Brewers had to trade him. They couldn't afford to keep a guy with a 6+ ERA on the roster.