Why are we so bad at developing pitchers?

[TooLiveBrew]

Meanwhile, the Cardinals are beating the Padres 5-0 in the 6th. Their starting pitcher, Tyler Lyon, who I've never even heard of (9th round draft pick from Oklahoma State in 2010, the 289th pick overall) is throwing a three hit shutout in his Major League debut.

 

The Cardinals keep finding correctly identifying & developing pitchers, and we can't find one decent one.

Imo there's a big difference

[jerichoholicninja]

It's one game against a rather poor team. Mr. Lyon is more likely to be Chris Seanz than Chris Carpenter.

[JackNicholson1974]

Cardinals call up last year's #1 pick, 19th overall...

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/michael-wacha-next-st-louis-cardinals-ace-mike-matheny-adam-wainwright-052713

 

Wacha, who turns 22 on July 21, is 4-0 with a 2.05 ERA, 34 strikeouts and 15 walks in 52 2/3 innings at Triple-A. At 6-foot-6, he bears a physical resemblance to Wainwright, and tops out at 97 mph on a downhill plane.

 

I have to hand it to them, they are a great organization.

[adambr2]

Cardinals call up last year's #1 pick, 19th overall...

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/michael-wacha-next-st-louis-cardinals-ace-mike-matheny-adam-wainwright-052713

 

Wacha, who turns 22 on July 21, is 4-0 with a 2.05 ERA, 34 strikeouts and 15 walks in 52 2/3 innings at Triple-A. At 6-foot-6, he bears a physical resemblance to Wainwright, and tops out at 97 mph on a downhill plane.

 

I have to hand it to them, they are a great organization.

 

Meanwhile our two first round picks from last year are hitting around the Mendoza line in A ball.

[The stache]

Yup, sad, isn't it? Wacha will kick our ____ all over the place just like Shelby Miller has.

 

Wacha. Miller. Martinez. Rosenthal. /shudder.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

Most of the pitchers we bring up either are trick pitch pitchers or don't have a third pitch. Most of our position players that we bring up do not field their position well, do not run the bases well, and have no concept of how to work the count to their advantage as a hitter. We simply don't develop talent anywhere in our organization. Maybe instead of overpaying for role-playing veterans we should hire some minor league instructors who are capable of teaching the fundamentals of baseball to young players.

[TheCrew07]

Most of the pitchers we bring up either are trick pitch pitchers or don't have a third pitch. Most of our position players that we bring up do not field their position well, do not run the bases well, and have no concept of how to work the count to their advantage as a hitter. We simply don't develop talent anywhere in our organization. Maybe instead of overpaying for role-playing veterans we should hire some minor league instructors who are capable of teaching the fundamentals of baseball to young players.

 

Bingo.

 

I have a hard time putting into words how much I despise the Cards and Cubs as organizations including their fanbase. I want to destroy them both at every level of baseball.

 

However, I do have admiration for how the Cards continually remain competitive not too mention their rich history as a franchise. Unfortunately I also like what the Cubs have done realigning the front office and the talent evaluators they have brought in and the Cubs will be able to draft a top of the rotation MLB starter that they so desperately need in 2 weeks.

 

/sigh

[Fear The Chorizo]

Unfortunately I also like what the Cubs have done realigning the front office and the talent evaluators they have brought in and the Cubs will be able to draft a top of the rotation MLB starter that they so desperately need in 2 weeks.

 

While I agree with your assessment of the improvement the Cubs have made in talent evaluators, it doesn't mean the Cubs are automatically on the verge of adding an ace to their rotation for the next decade with the #2 pick...Mark Prior says hello. They do have better people making decisions on players than when Jim Hendry ran the show (which is much more important longterm than picking high), but that isn't exactly saying much. Jim Hendry took the Cubs minor league system from good to hopeless in very short order.

 

Both the Cardinals and Cubs have more resources to pour into scouting & player development, both stateside and internationally, without impacting the size of their major league payrolls. The Brewers have conducted themselves like a mid-market team at the major league level over the past few seasons, and it's likely that the player development/scouting side has suffered because of it.

[trwi7]

Both the Cardinals and Cubs have more resources to pour into scouting & player development, both stateside and internationally, without impacting the size of their major league payrolls. The Brewers have conducted themselves like a mid-market team at the major league level over the past few seasons, and it's likely that the player development/scouting side has suffered because of it.

 

If that's the case, they're pretty stupid. Teams in every sport always do better when they draft and develop their own talent. If your theory is true that adding to the major league payroll while taking away from the player development/scouting side (I don't believe that, they've always been conservative with money spent there) then they better change it fast.

 

And yes they have more resources, that's why we should be spending our time and resources that gives us the best bang for our buck which is in scouting and player development.

[TheCrew07]

While I agree with your assessment of the improvement the Cubs have made in talent evaluators, it doesn't mean the Cubs are automatically on the verge of adding an ace to their rotation for the next decade with the #2 pick...Mark Prior says hello.

 

There certainly are no guarantees but they have 3 things going for them that they didn't have when Prior came around.

1. No Dusty Baker to run the young pitchers into the ground

2. A different front office that wouldn't allow that to happen in the first place

3. Pitch counts have become and established part of baseball (right or wrong)

 

The Cubs will get Grey or Appel this year and will be right there with Miami and Houston for Rondon next year. That would be a heck of a 1-2 righty lefty punch and is my single biggest fear. The Pirates, Cards, and Reds are already better than us and have a stronger farm systems. If the Cubs get 2 top of the rotation pitchers in 2 drafts by the time those guys are ready to step in at MLB the rest of their young position players like Soler and Baez will be MLB ready as well. All they would need to do is resign Garza or a similar type pitcher and all of a sudden their 1-3 is pretty competitive with a much improved line-up to go with it.

 

There is just no way Milwaukee is this bad, the Brewers aren't the 3rd worst team in baseball (where they currently would draft next season) but the reality is that by beating up the Cubs it will only help them rise up more quickly. I'm not suggesting we tank but that's the reality of the situation. I don't want the Cubs to have any shot at Rondon, I'd like him in the AL to be honest, so I'd hope Houston had the top pick for a 3rd straight year because they are the only AL team awful enough to be in the conversation.

[torts]

Cardinals call up last year's #1 pick, 19th overall...

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/michael-wacha-next-st-louis-cardinals-ace-mike-matheny-adam-wainwright-052713

 

Wacha, who turns 22 on July 21, is 4-0 with a 2.05 ERA, 34 strikeouts and 15 walks in 52 2/3 innings at Triple-A. At 6-foot-6, he bears a physical resemblance to Wainwright, and tops out at 97 mph on a downhill plane.

 

I have to hand it to them, they are a great organization.

 

if the Brewers had drafted Wacha he'd still be in A ball right now, developing.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I don't want the Cubs to have any shot at Rondon

 

Isn't it Carlos Rodon, not Rondon? And wasn't he drafted by the Brewers in the 16th round in 2011? Looking back at how that unfolded, the Brewers called him to ask if he'd sign for the slot bonus of 250K in the 4th round and he said no, then drafted him 12 rounds later and were unable to offer a large enough bonus for him to sign. Granted, every other team had at least 15 opportunities to draft the kid and these situations constantly happen with how the MLB draft is structured, but it's a prime example of how being able to identify a projectable arm and take a gamble by offering a few hundred thousand more than slot value for a high schooler may have landed the Brewers' organization one of the best amateur arms in college right now. Keep in mind that in 2011 the Brewers' major league payroll was stretched to the limit, which probably restricted any budget for mid-round draftees well over slot. Hindsight's always 20-20 and I hate playing 'what if', but I'm pretty sure the Brewers' brass wouldn't mind trading both of their top 15 draft picks that year (Jungman and Bradley) for another chance to get Rodon signed back in 2011.

[homer]

Most of the pitchers we bring up either are trick pitch pitchers or don't have a third pitch. Most of our position players that we bring up do not field their position well, do not run the bases well, and have no concept of how to work the count to their advantage as a hitter. We simply don't develop talent anywhere in our organization. Maybe instead of overpaying for role-playing veterans we should hire some minor league instructors who are capable of teaching the fundamentals of baseball to young players.

 

The Brewers did win the division two years ago with almost an entirely home grown offense. Some of these posts make me feel like I took a time machine back to 2001.

[LouisEly]

You can't give every high school kid who demands $600K or goes to college $600K. While the draft pool wasn't established until 2012, I think there was some pressure from MLB not to give those high bonuses to picks later in the draft. The Brewers complained about the rules long enough that they feel compelled to abide by them, right or wrong.

 

Part of it is luck and what years you get top picks. Say what you want about Weeks, he has by far the best career WAR of any of the top 6 picks in the 2003 draft and the 7th best of all 39 first round picks that year. There was also no protection for unsigned picks with a similar comp pick in the next draft like there is now. No use wringing hands about Wacha; he was drafted well before the Brewers picks.

[TheCrew07]

I don't want the Cubs to have any shot at Rondon

 

Isn't it Carlos Rodon, not Rondon?

 

It is yes, my bad. I've been spelling his name wrong for years apparently.

[fondybrewfan]

I don't the problem is that we are drafting crappy prospects; the problem is that we don't know what to do with them once we have them. I don't think there were too many cases where scouts that we seriously overreached on a pitcing prospect in the early rounds. That means they were qualified to be there. The problem is that once we drafted them they all went to ****. I don't know if we are changing these kids mechanics or deliveries but something we are doing is leading to these kids falling apart quickly (save for a few). I mean there were reasons that Arnett, Bradley, Jungmann, etc were 1st round picks; there talent at the time said they were

[rondoman]

When the Brewers get their paws on a young pitcher they seem to go to crap.

[TheCrew07]

I don't the problem is that we are drafting crappy prospects; the problem is that we don't know what to do with them once we have them.

 

I think it's all of the above. There are some curious things being reported such as the Brewers never even contacting a player until they draft him. Well that's fine after round 20 or so, but how are they not doing their homework on the players they are targeting, especially in the top 10 rounds? Or do they not target specific guys and just take whomever is there? I guess what I'm saying is how does the organization really know anything about the kid other than what he tools he has if they don't talk to him?

 

The Brewers were notorious about playing their draft cards close to the vest, but if that's the case with limiting contact... well that's just dumb, and I'd much rather that they are just consistently getting beat to the punch and not able to draft specific players they were targeting than they are afraid people are going to snake their picks so they don't talk to potential draftee. Either way I guess the Crew is demonstrating some level of incompetence, but it makes you wonder what is actually going on.

 

As I pointed out earlier the Brewers had 2 chances to get the Covey pick correct and ended up with Jungmann and then drafted Bradley with much better prospects on the board. Yes Bradley was falling, but there's just no way we can say today that he was a higher ceiling prospect than many of the pitchers taken after him.

 

The velocity loss issues that keep coming back around with prospect after prospect might have something to do with player development but I doubt that as well, I just think the Brewers do a poor job identifying the proper talent and pitchers whom are truly projectable vs those that have mostly tapped out their potential already. Off the top of my head Anundsen, Arnett, Bradley, Heckathorn, Adams, Frederickson, and Hall all had more juice in their arms according their scouting reports than they had entering pro ball and guy like Scarpetta had already filled out his frame and was pitching 90-91 by the time I saw him in WI. People might be inclining to throw Jungmann on that list but his 2 seam was always significantly slower than the 4 seam (which admittedly is a bit odd), and he's throwing the 2 seam for the most part now.

 

I posted a BA article in the draft forum talking about HS pitchers and how the kids with the biggest arms on draft day rarely make it to MLB. The HS pitchers which have the best chance of becoming impact talent in the majors tend to be the ones that show an advanced feel for pitching, have a plus pitch or 2, and have legitimate projection left, usually working in that 89-93 range with the FB in HS but picking up more velocity with age. Of all our HS draftees, only 3 have really fit that profile: Odorizzi, Braddock, and Gallardo. Lasker, Lintz, Anundsen, and Hall didn't add velocity, Inman and Scarpetta were mostly maxed out on draft day, and the first rounders Rogers, Jones, and Jeffress had big arms but always lacked control.

 

I hadn't given it much thought until reading that BA article, but it makes complete sense to me. You're better off drafting "pitchers" with projection left rather than drafting "throwers" hoping to reign them in. I used to just say give me 1 plus tool and projection and I'll be happy but I wasn't looking deep enough as control/pitchability/whatever you want to call it is just as important when developing impact pitching as the arm, and there aren't many organizations whom have had much success teaching throwers to pitch.

[LouisEly]

I don't the problem is that we are drafting crappy prospects; the problem is that we don't know what to do with them once we have them. I don't think there were too many cases where scouts that we seriously overreached on a pitcing prospect in the early rounds. That means they were qualified to be there. The problem is that once we drafted them they all went to ****. I don't know if we are changing these kids mechanics or deliveries but something we are doing is leading to these kids falling apart quickly (save for a few). I mean there were reasons that Arnett, Bradley, Jungmann, etc were 1st round picks; there talent at the time said they were

 

Remember all of the stuff that Ben Hendrickson's dad had to say about the Brewers? Most people dismissed it as someone who thought his kid was better than he really was.

 

Maybe he was spot on.

[homer]

I bet there are 20 other teams with a similar thread. At any one point in time there are only a handful of teams that can churn out pitchers. St. Louis is only a recent phenomenon. They traditionally relied on free agents to bolster their starting staff. San Fran had a run of pitchers but that seems to have waned. Tampa Bay has been successful drafting pitchers and more importantly knowing when to get rid of them. Cincinnati has been decent but that's fairly recent too. Atlanta had great success in the 90's but most of those guys were acquired via trade. Very few teams can consistently draft and develop pitching over the long haul.

[Eye Black]

Cardinals call up last year's #1 pick, 19th overall...

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/michael-wacha-next-st-louis-cardinals-ace-mike-matheny-adam-wainwright-052713

 

Wacha, who turns 22 on July 21, is 4-0 with a 2.05 ERA, 34 strikeouts and 15 walks in 52 2/3 innings at Triple-A. At 6-foot-6, he bears a physical resemblance to Wainwright, and tops out at 97 mph on a downhill plane.

 

I have to hand it to them, they are a great organization.

I have an overwhelming feeling Michael Wacha has a bright future as an MLB pitcher. Seems like the guy can really shove it, [sarcasm]just the way you would envision a 6'6"/210lbs Texan to do it.[/sarcasm]

[trwi7]

If the pitching thing doesn't work out for him I think Wacha has a second career as a stand-up comic on The Muppet Show.

[The stache]

If the pitching thing doesn't work out for him I think Wacha has a second career as a stand-up comic on The Muppet Show.

 

Wacha Wacha Wacha

[brewcrewdue80]

Here's a Franchise of late that has churned up SPs.

 

Arizona anyone?

 

Max Scherzer,Jarrod Parker,Wade Miley,Brett Anderson,Bryan Shaw,Josh Collmenter

And now, they also Developed Patrick Corbin/Tyler Skaggs from Anaheim LOL Wow, Segura/Corbin/Skaggs could all be on that team today.

Now, sure Scherzer/Parker/Anderson were shipped as their careers began but they drafted them,developed them and brought them up in to the Majors.

Stealing Corbin/Skaggs is just a sign somebody within their organization clearly has an eye on assessing future Pitchers.

 

Arizona having looked at their team on BREF, man, they sure make some moves. They picked an excellent year to be bad and traded away Haren/Jackson for some serious return. We know they traded away Justin Upton, but they also had Carlos Gonzalez at one time who they traded away With Brett Anderson, and Chris Carter+++more for Dan Haren who they flipped for Skaggs/Corbin/ and Joe Saunders.

 

So it sure is interesting looking at Trades how many stud players are traded away only to use a player in return and trade them away for a future stud player. We got it with Grienke.

Anyway, just something to turn our attention away for STL. and say hey, there's another team out there finding ways to insert and get quality years from drafted pitchers. Or to trade away for other pieces....Scherzer sent away for Ian Kennedy/Edwin Jackson who brought back Daniel Hudson.

That's 3 good pitchers out of 1 successful Drafted Pitcher with Talent.

 

Huge Fan of Scherzer btw Root for him anytime.

[The stache]

You also failed to mention Archie Bradley, who is smoking batters at AA. Bradley's the #23 prospect in baseball, and at his line this year is 6-1 with a 1.01 ERA, 80 K's in 62 2/3 IP vs 26 BB. His WHIP is 1.12, and opponents are batting .198 off of him.

 

Don't forget the DBacks drafted and developed Trevor Bauer, too. He's going to be a stud in Cleveland.