Why are we so bad at developing pitchers?

[RockCoCougars]

I've ranted on this before here, so I'll keep it brief... but in a nutshell, the Brewers have never been able to develop pitching. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong... but as far as I can tell, this franchise has never drafted a single 20 game winner. I know they've had some bad luck with injuries, etc., and that wins are somewhat overrated, but that is a pathetic stat.

[3and2Fastball]

At some point the philosophy has to change from "what's best for this season" to "what's best for the organization"

 

That, to me, sums up exactly the problem with the Brewers. I don't have inside information about the front office, and maybe that is changing a little (trading for Segura, extending Gomez), but my perception is that Mark A is all about "whats best for this season" every single year

[Baldkin]

I've ranted on this before here, so I'll keep it brief... but in a nutshell, the Brewers have never been able to develop pitching. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong... but as far as I can tell, this franchise has never drafted a single 20 game winner. I know they've had some bad luck with injuries, etc., and that wins are somewhat overrated, but that is a pathetic stat.

 

Considering they've only had three 20 game winners in 40+ years as a franchise, it says as much to their futility as a franchise as it does their inability to develop pitching. One of which they did sign from Mexico (Teddy).

[JimH5]

I've ranted on this before here, so I'll keep it brief... but in a nutshell, the Brewers have never been able to develop pitching. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong... but as far as I can tell, this franchise has never drafted a single 20 game winner. I know they've had some bad luck with injuries, etc., and that wins are somewhat overrated, but that is a pathetic stat.

 

Mike Caldwell, Jim Colborn and Teddy Higuera have been the only 20 game winners, and none of them were Brewer draft choices.

 

RA Dickey had a 5.8 WAR (BR.com) season last year, and only 5 times have the Brewers had someone exceed that. Higuera 3 times, the great Ben Sheets season & Caldwell's 1978. 6 other guys did it last year alone (Verlander, Price, Kershaw, Harrison, Cueto & Sale).

 

The Brewers have never been able to draft and develop a top quality pitcher. In franchise history, only Higuera and Sheets have a career WAR greater than 20, and there are at least 30 currently active pitchers in the majors who have done that.

[chickinbrickin]

I think the Brewers can't develop pitching stigma comes from their first round fails. First round pitchers since 2004 are Rogers, Jeffress, Arnett, Covey, Bradley, and Jungman. I will give Bradley and Jungman some time yet, but they are doing nothing yet to make me think they will pan out. The other guys on the list have made essentially zero contribution at the big league level.

 

Pitching is a crapshoot but the Brewers brass is especially horrible at scouting and drafting pitching.

[JimH5]

Perhaps I'm using BR.com's play index incorrectly, but if not, the recent numbers are even more depressing:

 

Since 2000, there have been 175 pitcher seasons where the pitcher has produced a WAR of 5.0 or higher.

 

The Brewers have had 2 of those. (Sheets in 2004 and D'Amico in 2000). Sabathia had a 4.9 in the Brewers portion of that one season.

 

Hard to see how they can win a pennant or World Series if there system can't produce a stud pitcher.

[DHonks]

we haven't heard of the Brewers being accused of skimping with the draft since the Taylor/Bando eras. Not sure why that came up.

 

I generally like drafting hitting in early rounds, then high ceiling HS pitchers after that. But to the point, this Cards pitching depth is new. It wasn't this way 1, 2, or 5 years ago. Remember the Cards fan that used to come here complaining about how they always took college pitching while our fans complained we always took HS kids?

[The stache]

I also think some of the guys we still have in the minors have promise: Tyler Thornburg, Taylor Jungmann, and Jed Lowrie should end up being productive for us. How good they'll be remains to be seen. I think Johnny Helweg has closer potential.

 

Did you mean Jed Bradley? Also, it's "Hellweg"

 

Sorry to nitpick but spelling a new player's name wrong drives me nuts for some reason, like how people spell Rogers as Rodgers, even though I know why they do it.

 

 

I know it's Bradley, not sure why I typed Lowrie. Brain fart. My muscle relaxer was kicking in, and I was half asleep when I was writing this post. Sorry about that.

[The stache]

I don't know, I guess I look at other franchises in the same kind of boat financially, and many of them seem to have some very highly rated pitchers in the pipeline.

 

The Brewers have a $91 million salary for 2013

 

Teams with a salary below the Brewers, and their recent top rated pitching prospects:

 

Arizona: Tyler Skaggs, Archie Bradley

Atlanta: Julio Teheran

New York Mets: Matt Harvey, Zack Wheeler, Noah Syndergaard

Seattle: Taijuan Walker, Danny Hultzen, James Paxton

Cleveland: Trevor Bauer

San Diego: Max Fried, Casey Kelley

Oakland: Jarrod Parker, Brad Peacock, A.J. Cole

Minnesota: Alex Meyer, Kyle Gibson

Colorado: Drew Pomeranz

Pittsburgh: Gerrit Cole, Jameson Taillon

Tampa Bay: Matt Moore, Jeremy Hellickson, Taylor Guerrieri, Jake Odorizzi, Chris Archer, Mike Montgomery

Miami: Jose Fernandez

 

From this group, Harvey is dominating for the Mets, Matt Moore is dominating for the Rays, Hellickson was the Rookie of the Year two seasons ago (having a bit of an off season), Parker was really good last year, having an off season. Teheran is up and down thus far. Pomeranz has yet to live up to expectations. But all these teams have some pitchers with real upside. If Wily Peralta doesn't pan out, is there anybody in our system that excites us on the mound?

[trwi7]

I would take pretty much every pitcher in that group over our best pitching prospects.

[The stache]

 

Hard to see how they can win a pennant or World Series if there system can't produce a stud pitcher.

 

Well said. I think that is holding us back. Developing young hitters is a good thing. Trading them to get pitchers that won't stay long term doesn't lead to long term success.

 

Look at the other teams in our division from a Minor League/young talent standpoint. Obviously there's no guarantee any of these guys will become huge stars, but we're at a distinct disadvantage here:

 

Very recent Minor Leaguers (some of whom are now in the Majors)

 

St. Louis: Oscar Taveras, Shelby Miller, Kolten Wong, Trevor Rosenthall, Carlos Martinez, Michael Wacha (#1 system in baseball)

Cincinnati: Devin Mesoraco (watch out for this kid once he puts it together), Todd Frazier, Billy Hamilton, Robert Stephenson, Tony Cingrani

Pittsburgh: Starling Marte, Jameson Taillon, Gerrit Cole, Josh Bell, Luis Heredia, Alen Henson, Gregory Polanco

Chicago: Anthony Rizzo (via trade), Jorge Baez, Jorge Soler, Albert Almora, Arodys Vizcaino, Brett Jackson

 

We got an absolute steal in Jean Segura, and Hellweg will contribute. I like Hunter Morris. I think Scooter Gennett can be a piece, at least from a depth standpoint. But I think the young talent drafted by the other teams in our division is way ahead of our own.

[The stache]

I would take pretty much every pitcher in that group over our best pitching prospects.

 

Sadly, I agree.

[TheCrew07]

Well I still like Thornburg, Nelson, and Hellweg but I'd be lying if I said I was positive any of those guys would be top of the rotation starters for the Brewers. I won't even make that claim about Peralta and the only Brewer's pitching prospect I've ever said that about was Gallardo.

 

As far as the Cards go, please don't get hung up on the draft. I included them because within the last 5 years there has been an obvious shift in tact from that franchise. They haven't picked up more players than the Brewers in Latin America, they've just picked up better players in both Martinez and Taveras, and they've changed their draft strategy somewhat. I was looking at teams that have been or will be able to field an entire or close to homegrown rotation. Perhaps the Cards weren't the best example of long-term success, but like I said that was off the top of my head and I'd wager I've read about an article about a Cards' prospect everyday this season someplace so they immediately come to mind whenever I'm talking prospects. While they haven't been at it as long from a pitching standpoint, they've been doing a tremendous job recently.

 

As I said I don't think there's just one way to get home on this topic but given the relative lack of success the Brewers have had identifying impact pitching I'm not sure just trying to target a couple of guys is in our wheelhouse. In the past I've been more concerned with draft position and taking the proper type of player for the draft slot but I'm gradually moving towards a different tact. Of all the teams I listed I think I'd rather try to beat the Rays to the punch and sprinkle in as many high upside HS kids as possible in the first 10 rounds. We've kind of been going at it the San Fran way and only have Gallardo to show for it. The idea would be that maybe we could make up for in sheer volume what we lack in precision from a scouting standpoint. It doesn't even matter if the Brewers fall apart and we tank this season, we don't have a 1st round pick anyway so an impact college pitcher at the top of draft isn't a possibility.

 

As for Nate's suggestion, X brought that theory up in 2007 or 2008 when it was still possible to trade for young pitching and I was on board with the idea at that time. However the market has swung away from OBP and SLG and back towards pitching, I'm not sure it's possible to overvalue pitching, but we're pretty thin on any trading chips that would net young impact pitching at this time. Furthermore, Melvin had every opportunity to try and trade for high ceiling pitching in the Lee in and Overbay deals and went with high floor players instead. I don't see him being interested (or motivated to use his word) to attempt to make prospect for prospect trades, regardless of how good of an idea I believe it to be.

 

I've firmly believe that if you aren't developing pitching and can't afford impact pitching in FA then you need to trade for it, but in 2007-2008 I never imagined Melvin would continually trade for short term solutions instead of prospects. I thought when Ash was talking about the organization being sure it could trade for pitching that they were looking at long-term solutions given the market we're in, but I misread their intent horribly and was bitter about the true organizational strategy for a long time.

 

The Brewers have somewhat changed their draft strategy towards more college pitching but unfortunately it hasn't yielded better results than what Jack Z's staff was doing and we've actually been signing less players out of Latin America the last few years. Since the organization really isn't doing any better developing pitching the net effect is that we're still hoping and relying on just a couple of guys to work out perfectly to change our pitching fortunes. We're due for some good luck on that front, I feel like the pitching gods owe us a couple, but with the current regime in place I honestly don't see things changing much which is disappointing. The Brewers have the worst organization building strategy in the division and it's finally beginning to catch up with us, only the Cubs are in as a bad a place as we are from a pitching standpoint but they have bats with impact potential from AA on down and can afford to buy pitching if their hitting develops. The Pirates have an impact pitching prospect at every level of the minor leagues and we've already discussed the Cards and Reds in detail.

[jerichoholicninja]

I don't know, I guess I look at other franchises in the same kind of boat financially, and many of them seem to have some very highly rated pitchers in the pipeline.

 

The Brewers have a $91 million salary for 2013

 

Teams with a salary below the Brewers, and their recent top rated pitching prospects:

 

Arizona: Tyler Skaggs, Archie Bradley

Atlanta: Julio Teheran

New York Mets: Matt Harvey, Zack Wheeler, Noah Syndergaard

Seattle: Taijuan Walker, Danny Hultzen, James Paxton

Cleveland: Trevor Bauer

San Diego: Max Fried, Casey Kelley

Oakland: Jarrod Parker, Brad Peacock, A.J. Cole

Minnesota: Alex Meyer, Kyle Gibson

Colorado: Drew Pomeranz

Pittsburgh: Gerrit Cole, Jameson Taillon

Tampa Bay: Matt Moore, Jeremy Hellickson, Taylor Guerrieri, Jake Odorizzi, Chris Archer, Mike Montgomery

Miami: Jose Fernandez

 

From this group, Harvey is dominating for the Mets, Matt Moore is dominating for the Rays, Hellickson was the Rookie of the Year two seasons ago (having a bit of an off season), Parker was really good last year, having an off season. Teheran is up and down thus far. Pomeranz has yet to live up to expectations. But all these teams have some pitchers with real upside. If Wily Peralta doesn't pan out, is there anybody in our system that excites us on the mound?

 

Interesting to note that the bolded pitchers were not drafted by the team they are listed next to. Half of them (13/26) were traded for.

[TheCrew07]

 

Hard to see how they can win a pennant or World Series if there system can't produce a stud pitcher.

 

Well said. I think that is holding us back. Developing young hitters is a good thing. Trading them to get pitchers that won't stay long term doesn't lead to long term success.

 

Look at the other teams in our division from a Minor League/young talent standpoint. Obviously there's no guarantee any of these guys will become huge stars, but we're at a distinct disadvantage here:

 

Very recent Minor Leaguers (some of whom are now in the Majors)

 

St. Louis: Oscar Taveras, Shelby Miller, Kolten Wong, Trevor Rosenthall, Carlos Martinez, Michael Wacha (#1 system in baseball)

Cincinnati: Devin Mesoraco (watch out for this kid once he puts it together), Todd Frazier, Billy Hamilton, Robert Stephenson, Tony Cingrani

Pittsburgh: Starling Marte, Jameson Taillon, Gerrit Cole, Josh Bell, Luis Heredia, Alen Henson, Gregory Polanco

Chicago: Anthony Rizzo (via trade), Jorge Baez, Jorge Soler, Albert Almora, Arodys Vizcaino, Brett Jackson

 

We got an absolute steal in Jean Segura, and Hellweg will contribute. I like Hunter Morris. I think Scooter Gennett can be a piece, at least from a depth standpoint. But I think the young talent drafted by the other teams in our division is way ahead of our own.

 

It looks like you pulled those lists straight from BA? I think that both Nick Kingham who's in Bradenton and Orlando Castro who's in WV are going to make some noise and I'd add them to the Pirates' list, both have been extremely impressive thus far this season. Kingham seems to profile as a mid rotation guy and I don't know anything about Castro other than he's a LHP and his stats caught my attention a couple of weeks ago when I was browsing WV's stat page looking at Stetson Allie's numbers. Castro was just named the SAL pitcher of the week and if Allie keeps it going he'll be a top 50 prospect by next year.

 

I think the Pirate's system is every bit as good as the Cardinals.

[Outlander]

One thing I think the Brewers are doing good recently is getting cheap relief pitching in their system, either by developing them or signing minor league free agents. They really could have a cheap bullpen next year of Gorzelanny, Henderson, Figaro, Kintzler, Hand, Sanchez, Wooten and Olmstedt. Now maybe they don't all stick but at a time when they need cheap players to offset the well paid players in 2014 it is nice not having a $10 million dollar man in the bullpen.

[Ennder]

There is a lot of massively overrating other teams prospects in this post, that is all I'll say on the matter. To put it in perspective people used to love our farm system too, one that produced the stud major league players like Inman and Gamel and Parra and Jeffress and LaPorta and Salome and Gillespie and Ford and Green and Iribarren and Gindle and even Cain and Brantley who ended up being nothing special so far and Lawrie who has only been good because he somehow became great defensively. When you look at all of these awesome guys we had a few years back when we were rated as one of the better farm systems like 3 of them became average major league players or better.

 

Our system is highly underrated right now, it has way more depth than it had back when we got high rankings, it is just low on perennial all stars. Obviously teams want perennial all stars but it isn't like we don't have any major league players coming up.

[monty57]

The Brewers have the reputation of being able to draft and develop position players and not pitchers, but if you take out the few years we had Jack Z, have we really been good at drafting position players? Really, other than the few seasons where Jack Z was in charge, we've just been pretty pathetic overall in drafts for the past 30 years or so. That's probably a big reason we've had two playoff appearances in that time frame.

 

But, as others have said, I don't care how we get them, we just need to find a way to continually have more good, young, inexpensive players so we can be less dependant on expensive guys on the wrong side of 30.

[adambr2]

There is a lot of massively overrating other teams prospects in this post, that is all I'll say on the matter. To put it in perspective people used to love our farm system too, one that produced the stud major league players like Inman and Gamel and Parra and Jeffress and LaPorta and Salome and Gillespie and Ford and Green and Iribarren and Gindle and even Cain and Brantley who ended up being nothing special so far and Lawrie who has only been good because he somehow became great defensively. When you look at all of these awesome guys we had a few years back when we were rated as one of the better farm systems like 3 of them became average major league players or better.

 

Our system is highly underrated right now, it has way more depth than it had back when we got high rankings, it is just low on perennial all stars. Obviously teams want perennial all stars but it isn't like we don't have any major league players coming up.

 

How is this a good thing? Sure there are guys who have the potential to be league average players at their position (Morris, Gennett), but this only really gives us a cost-effective option at the position, it doesn't help us be competitive.

 

There isn't a Braun, a Fielder, or even a Hart in the system right now. There isn't a can't-miss pitching prospect, just mostly quite a few guys that fit into the range of q #3 starter at best down to a hopeful middle reliever.

[JohnBriggs12]

There isn't such a thing as a "can't-miss pitching prospect". See Mark Prior. If a guy turns out to be a quality number 3 starter over the period of team control, you have to consider that a plus.

 

There are tons of guys that throw in the mid 90's these days. It's command and quality of secondary pitches that's the difference at the major league level. Predicting who those guys will be is a lot guessing more than anything.

[Ennder]

 

How is this a good thing? Sure there are guys who have the potential to be league average players at their position (Morris, Gennett), but this only really gives us a cost-effective option at the position, it doesn't help us be competitive.

 

There isn't a Braun, a Fielder, or even a Hart in the system right now. There isn't a can't-miss pitching prospect, just mostly quite a few guys that fit into the range of q #3 starter at best down to a hopeful middle reliever.

 

There are plenty of guys as good as Hart in our system. There isn't likely a Braun or a Fielder but there are guys who will be Hart, Weeks type players and probably someone will be a Gallardo as well. If you honestly think Corey Hart is better than everyone in our system you are exactly my point of people really underrating our system. Cost controlled average major league players are very valuable and are the building blocks for a successful franchise. You do need to surround them with a few stars but it isn't a BAD thing to have a bunch of average major league players in your system.

[dlk9s]

There isn't a Braun, a Fielder...in the system right now.

I know, man, it's just embarrassing how bad the Brewers have been lately at drafting Hall of Fame players.

[Thurston Fluff]

I don't know, I guess I look at other franchises in the same kind of boat financially, and many of them seem to have some very highly rated pitchers in the pipeline.

 

The Brewers have a $91 million salary for 2013

 

Teams with a salary below the Brewers, and their recent top rated pitching prospects:

 

Arizona: Tyler Skaggs, Archie Bradley

Atlanta: Julio Teheran

New York Mets: Matt Harvey, Zack Wheeler, Noah Syndergaard

Seattle: Taijuan Walker, Danny Hultzen, James Paxton

Cleveland: Trevor Bauer

San Diego: Max Fried, Casey Kelley

Oakland: Jarrod Parker, Brad Peacock, A.J. Cole

Minnesota: Alex Meyer, Kyle Gibson

Colorado: Drew Pomeranz

Pittsburgh: Gerrit Cole, Jameson Taillon

Tampa Bay: Matt Moore, Jeremy Hellickson, Taylor Guerrieri, Jake Odorizzi, Chris Archer, Mike Montgomery

Miami: Jose Fernandez

 

From this group, Harvey is dominating for the Mets, Matt Moore is dominating for the Rays, Hellickson was the Rookie of the Year two seasons ago (having a bit of an off season), Parker was really good last year, having an off season. Teheran is up and down thus far. Pomeranz has yet to live up to expectations. But all these teams have some pitchers with real upside. If Wily Peralta doesn't pan out, is there anybody in our system that excites us on the mound?

 

Bit ironic to show a list of other teams pitching prospects in an effort to show the lack of Brewers ability to develop pitching has one who came from the Brewers system.

[TheCrew07]

There is a lot of massively overrating other teams prospects in this post, that is all I'll say on the matter.

 

Yep because all those national and repected prospect sites are conspiring against the Brewers by artificially inflating the talent of the other prospects in the division. Shame on them and shame on those that are realistic about our farm system.

 

To put it in perspective people used to love our farm system too, one that produced the stud major league players like Inman and Gamel and Parra and Jeffress and LaPorta and Salome and Gillespie and Ford and Green and Iribarren and Gindle and even Cain and Brantley who ended up being nothing special so far and Lawrie who has only been good because he somehow became great defensively. When you look at all of these awesome guys we had a few years backwhen we were rated as one of the better farm systems like 3 of them became average major league players or better.

 

What? That's a such a gross misrepresentation of what happened, and aren't you actually the one who continually claimed Parra was just "unlucky" because of his FIP?

 

Would I champion Inman now the way I did then? No, Inman/Hendrickson/Eveland were a good learning process for me as a minor league fan. How do we really know what Gamel is or isn't? Who ever said Ford would be anything? People championed his speed and he was the fastest player in the minor leagues, the Brewers were much higher on him than this site's prospect watchers. Iribarren hit a ton at the lower levels and never developed any power, see the current discussions on the MiLB forum regarding Gennett, except he's a plus defender. Who ever said Gindl or Green were going to be studs? Cain has been hurt but he outperformed Gomez his last year in Milwaukee and did you even look at the year he's putting up now that he's healthy before dropping his name in your list? Jeffress had the best arm in the system and that was it, no one said he would be a stud, people said he had the potential to be a stud, 2 different concepts. The debate regarding Brantley was similar to the debate regarding Iribarren and Gennett, no one ever thought he'd be a stud, just that he'd be productive, which he is. Laporta is tough to figure out, he's gotten the AAAA label, he was never a favorite of mine. I'm not sure how any of us would have known about Salome's mental issues, it was never in print or an audio interview until his suspension, that issue basically blindsided everyone and killed his career, he just basically quit. Finally having watched a ton of MWL games over the last handful of years Lawrie had the quickest bat of anyone not named Trout that I had personally witnessed. He may not hit enough, that's the primary concern of anyone who follows prospects and the jump to MLB, but he has all of the tools to be an impact offensive player, and writing him off at 23 years old seems premature.

 

Once again there is a difference between talking about potential and actually coming out and saying a guy will be a stud. I haven't been able to say that about a Brewer's prospect in some time. I was sure Braun and Fielder would hit and I was positive Gallardo would be a top of the rotation pitcher. I do believe that Gamel will hit MLB pitching, but he's likely lost his opportunity with his plethora of injury issues. I personally haven't made any definitive claims about any of our current prospects, they've all had too many warts for that.

 

Our system is highly underrated right now, it has way more depth than it had back when we got high rankings, it is just low on perennial all stars. Obviously teams want perennial all stars but it isn't like we don't have any major league players coming up.

 

Yep once again it's a national conspiracy against the Brewers... maybe the reality of the situation just doesn't fit your "truth model"? I'll say this one final time, you cannot continually replace 3-4 WAR players with 2 WAR players and maintain success. Either you need to upgrade at a different position or you are losing wins and losing ground.

 

I like the young men in WI as much as anyone, but outside of Haniger all of those guys are probably years away from helping, they will need time to develop.

 

I like the upper crust of pitchers in the system, but they all profile about the same and have the same issues, how many of those guys will actually end up as starters I don't know. I wouldn't venture a guess regarding how many would possibly be a top of the rotation types either. I only maintain that they have potential should be given the opportunity to sink or swim at some point in the near future.

 

The only way for the Brewers to compete over the long-term is to field a rotation like the Rays have done. That's the only way to beat the big markets at their own game... to have young, impact, cost controlled pitching which you can cycle to keep the talent train moving forward. The Brewers are locked into another bad TV contract in comparison to the majority of the league, we aren't able to compete buying wins dollar for dollar or even at market rates. We have to buy wins at a discounted rate and that means having a significant youthful presence on the roster.

 

Our depth is great, but having players who profile best case as league average isn't a recipe for success because how many players actually reach their maximum potential? We did well with the first wave of position prospects, what's left of the second wave doesn't have that kind of the ceiling, and the 3rd wave is years away and very difficult to project. There is simply no way that the farm system is underrated at this time, we have 1 legit power power prospect, a couple of guys with nice hit tools, and a bunch of quesiton marks after that. Pitching wise there's no Gallardo... Thornburg is still leaving the ball up, Hellweg is walking too many, Pena has had a rough start, but at least Nelson has pitched well so one of the guys with a bigger arm is doing good things. None of the rest of the guys have big enough arms to make any claims about, sure we could have the next Marcum on our hands, or they could all be Dave Bush types which aren't good enough to realistically match up with the best playoff teams. Those guys are valuable at the back of the rotation, but they aren't going to win you championships.

[Thurston Fluff]

Pitching is a crapshoot but the Brewers brass is especially horrible at scouting and drafting pitching.

 

Or developing them. It's hard to know which is the most significant problem.

 

Right now we have three starters who were drafted and developed by the Brewers. No team in our division has more homegrown starters. Of those homegrown players I'd rank Samardzija, Bailey, Cueto, Garcia, Lynn and maybe Shelby if he continues like he is to be more than a mid level starter. I think Burgos and Peralta both have the potential to be as good maybe better than the rest. St Louis has three that are really good and the Reds have two. We have one and a couple that may end up being there when all is said and done. Maybe I'm higher on Peralta and Burgos long term than some so the top level talent is debatable. But we really aren't as far behind in homegrown starters as it seems.

I think a better question is the group of guys who may not be good starters but can carve out a nice career in the pen. That is where we seem to have a lot of trouble. I have some hope that we have enough serviceable pitchers in the system to change that sooner than later.