2013-05-03 Cardinals (Miller) at Brewers (Lohse), 7:10 PM CDT [Ramirez returns; Brewers lose, 6-1]

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

Yeah I have not been impressed by Miller at all for this game at least, this seems to be a case of the Cardinals just holding over on us and us finding ways to lose the game more than anything. We just seem completely snake bit against them and not unlike the Packers vs Cowboys/49ers back in the early Favre days we need to learn how to compete with the Cardinals or we won't ever take that final step imo.

 

yeah i really dont see why this kid is considered a future ace. you aren't going to last long in the majors relying on the fastball 80% of the time. the majority of those fastballs are in hittable spots. brewers hitters are stupid and unlucky. they should be crushing this kid right now.

 

I think both of you are missing the point here... you don't need pitches 2 and 3 if you can get outs with your FB, and he moves his FB all over the zone. He also works up in the zone like Sheets did getting many hitters to swing at FBs just out of the strike zone that they can't catch up with, I've harped on that concept for a long time, it bothers me that few pitchers attack hitters up and/or up and in anymore.

 

We have no one with an arm like Miller who can locate like Miller, give the young man his due. Yes he'll have to develop his secondary stuff at some point, but we'd take him in a heartbeat if we could. He painted a couple of FBs at 96 MPH at the knees on the outside corner without Molina having to move his glove but he's not impressive? Come on... I wish any of our young arms had that much gas and control, our best pitching prospect in the last decade in Gallardo has never even been able to locate like that which is why he gets into way too many 3 ball counts, and his arm was never that good.

 

Ohh and both his curve and change flash plus potential when he actually uses them, he was one of the best prospects in baseball for a reason and he learned some hard lessons in AAA last year which he's obviously applied and is better off for.

 

It irks me how well the Cards do consistently developing talent, their 2 recent world series wins, I hated TLR, dont' care for Molina, not a big of fan of their sanctimonious fanbase whining about HR stuff when no one admired a HR like Pujols, I dislike and/or am jealous of everything they've done. However, at the same I believe we should at least be realistic and give credit where credit is due. It's a fantastic organization with a ton of history that continues to do just about everything the right way from a talent standpoint and while I certainly don't like it, I'm not going to spin their success in a way that belittles their accomplishments. They've been better than us at MLB, they've out scouted us, and they've out developed us in the minors, and they've made better moves from a talent perspective... we've simply just been worked. We don't have to like it but we should acknowledge and appreciate their success... other than getting lucky with Suppan nothing was an accident, they are just very solid and well run organization through and through. Any team that sustains MLB success and yet has a loaded farm system is obviously doing something right... hopefully some day we can reach that point as an organization.

 

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on Miller. In the end the guy is probably going to end up kicking the Brewers @ss regardless of whether he ends up living up to the hype. That's just the Cardinal way lol. Don't get me wrong man, I hate the damn Cardinals but I'm not crazy either. They're an excellent organization. There's a reason why they've won 11 World Series championships. There's a reason why year after year they field a competitive team and have a stocked farm system. They know how to win. They've got more A rated prospects than we could dream of having. We as Brewers fans hate them, but we're lying if don't wish for a second that we could trade places with them. I don't care for their annoying fanbase or their stupid players. I do respect their organization. They're a good model for what small market franchises should be. If they get favorable treatment its probably because that organization has earned that kind of influence.

[The stache]

TheCrew07 is right. They kick our butts in scouting, and especially at developing pitchers. That's why I think Miller will live up to the hype. A team that knows good pitching talent when it sees it, and knows how to properly develop that talent, drafted him. Every single review I've read about Miller has been very, very positive. Baseball America Listed Miller as the #11 prospect in all of baseball in 2011, #8 in 2012, and #6 in 2013. In his Major League career thus far (including last night), he's 5-2 with a 1.79 ERA. In 50.1 innings pitched, he's struck out 54 batters, walked 15, his WHIP is 1.03. He's given up 3 home runs.

 

Baseball America named the St. Louis Cardinals minor league talent as the best in baseball (one month ago). Their player rankings: OF Oscar Taveras they ranked as #1 on the team (#3 prospect in baseball), RHP Shelby Miller #2 (#6 prospect in baseball), RHP Carlos Martinez #3 (#38 prospect in baseball), RHP Trevor Rosenthall #4 (#39 prospect in baseball), RHP Michael Wacha #5 (#76 prospect in baseball), 2B Kolten Wong #6 (#84 prospect in baseball).

 

Baseball Prospect Nation: http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/02/17/scouting-report-shelby-miller-rhp/

 

Written in February of 2012

 

BLUF (bottom line up front): Big time fastball-curveball combo that could land him as a number one starter with some elite seasons.

 

Overall grade on pitches (current/future):

Fastball: 60/70 (70/70 on wind-up and stretch, 60/60 on fastball movement)

Curve: 60/70

Change-up: 40/50

Control: 50/70

Command: 40/60

 

Those are on the 20-80 scouting scale. Elite fastball and curveball, average to above average change-up. Elite control, above average pitch command.

 

Baseball America's scouting report on Miller:

 

Scouting Report: Miller has an overpowering fastball that averaged 94 mph in the playoffs and can touch 97 mph. It has late, heavy movement that makes it more difficult to square up. He learned in 2012 that his heater is more effective when he utilizes his plus curveball and developing changeup. He went from throwing the fastball four out of every five pitches to 70 percent of the time in the second half. His control and command improved late in the year as well. St. Louis was concerned that he adopted a diet and workout plan that cost him muscle, so it helped him choose a different approach that will strength and stamina.

 

He's got more than just the fastball, and against us anyways, he hasn't needed much of anything else.

 

How highly do I think of him? I spent $115 to buy a 9.5/10 Beckett Graded 2010 Bowman Chrome certified auto card. It's one of only two in existence with all 9.5 sub grades.

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img267/6574/2010chromesmillerbgs.png

[Ennder]

I think both of you are missing the point here... you don't need pitches 2 and 3 if you can get outs with your FB, and he moves his FB all over the zone. He also works up in the zone like Sheets did getting many hitters to swing at FBs just out of the strike zone that they can't catch up with, I've harped on that concept for a long time, it bothers me that few pitchers attack hitters up and/or up and in anymore.

 

I'm not missing anything, Miller did not pitch a good game last night is all I'm saying, we let him off the hook time after time after time. That is the first game I've seen him pitch, not going to judge the guy off of one game but if he pitches like he did last night every game he is not going to be an ace that is for sure.

[chickinbrickin]

TheCrew07 is right. They kick our butts in scouting, and especially at developing pitchers. That's why I think Miller will live up to the hype. A team that knows good pitching talent when it sees it, and knows how to properly develop that talent, drafted him. Every single review I've read about Miller has been very, very positive. Baseball America Listed Miller as the #11 prospect in all of baseball in 2011, #8 in 2012, and #6 in 2013. In his Major League career thus far (including last night), he's 5-2 with a 1.79 ERA. In 50.1 innings pitched, he's struck out 54 batters, walked 15, his WHIP is 1.03. He's given up 3 home runs.

 

Baseball America named the St. Louis Cardinals minor league talent as the best in baseball (one month ago). Their player rankings: OF Oscar Taveras they ranked as #1 on the team (#3 prospect in baseball), RHP Shelby Miller #2 (#6 prospect in baseball), RHP Carlos Martinez #3 (#38 prospect in baseball), RHP Trevor Rosenthall #4 (#39 prospect in baseball), RHP Michael Wacha #5 (#76 prospect in baseball), 2B Kolten Wong #6 (#84 prospect in baseball).

 

Baseball Prospect Nation: http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/02/17/scouting-report-shelby-miller-rhp/

 

Written in February of 2012

 

BLUF (bottom line up front): Big time fastball-curveball combo that could land him as a number one starter with some elite seasons.

 

Overall grade on pitches (current/future):

Fastball: 60/70 (70/70 on wind-up and stretch, 60/60 on fastball movement)

Curve: 60/70

Change-up: 40/50

Control: 50/70

Command: 40/60

 

Those are on the 20-80 scouting scale. Elite fastball and curveball, average to above average change-up. Elite control, above average pitch command.

 

Baseball America's scouting report on Miller:

 

Scouting Report: Miller has an overpowering fastball that averaged 94 mph in the playoffs and can touch 97 mph. It has late, heavy movement that makes it more difficult to square up. He learned in 2012 that his heater is more effective when he utilizes his plus curveball and developing changeup. He went from throwing the fastball four out of every five pitches to 70 percent of the time in the second half. His control and command improved late in the year as well. St. Louis was concerned that he adopted a diet and workout plan that cost him muscle, so it helped him choose a different approach that will strength and stamina.

 

He's got more than just the fastball, and against us anyways, he hasn't needed much of anything else.

 

How highly do I think of him? I spent $115 to buy a 9.5/10 Beckett Graded 2010 Bowman Chrome certified auto card. It's one of only two in existence with all 9.5 sub grades.

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img267/6574/2010chromesmillerbgs.png

 

Nice card, but a 9.5 is a 9.5. The sub grades mean nothing in the end and do not bring a premium.

[TheCrew07]

I'm not missing anything, Miller did not pitch a good game last night is all I'm saying, we let him off the hook time after time after time. That is the first game I've seen him pitch, not going to judge the guy off of one game but if he pitches like he did last night every game he is not going to be an ace that is for sure.

 

Once again, he's pitched 13 innings against the Brewers and has given up 1 run and allowed a total of 8 hits, largely with just a FB... that's impressive in itself. As for "letting him off the hook time after time", that's not what I saw. The Brewers only had 7 hits in 6 innings, it's not like how Lohse was escaping mess after mess when the Cards had double digit hits against him after 5 and had made 3 outs at home plate. What I saw was Miller making a very good pitch when he needed to, like the Curve that Ramirez popped up, and at least 3 of the hits were pretty good pitches which Brewer hitters did a nice job with. For example Ramirez' first hit was a FB at the knees on the inside corner, excellent location, just a better job by a good hitter.

 

The simple fact that we'd like all of our starting pitchers to have 3 plus pitches and Miller has had success his entire career working primarily with just a FB is the point. He's the exception to the rule, pitchers just don't succeed with his kind of pitch ratios above A ball... but he does, that's what makes him special.

 

He doesn't have to be an "Ace", he'll be fine if he's "just" a #2... but as I've said numerous times I take a rotation full of #2s and we'll be in the World Series. From a development standpoint I don't like the Cards calling up young starting pitchers to work out of the bullpen, especially out of AA like Martinez, but Carlos showed enough in his debut last night that he obviously has the arm to earn that 1/2 label as well and should be a concern for Brewers fans in the future.

[trwi7]

it's not like how Lohse was escaping mess after mess when the Cards had double digit hits against him after 5 and had made 3 outs at home plate.

 

Not to mention the numerous line drive outs.

[TURBO]

I don't see how any brewer fan can rip on the Miller kid. He has straight up owned us in 2 starts.

 

Sounds like jealous school girl whining to me...

 

The kid is good, and will probably be even better in the future.