scooter gennett and Victor Roache.

[TooLiveBrew]

At what point are we going to keep on questioning Gennett's ability to hit the ball and become an everyday big leaguer?

 

He just keeps on hitting at every single level, and every year I hear(read) how his skills won't translate to the next level.

You don't read that here. What gets discussed here is how his lack of power won't likely play well in the bigs. I can't recall the last post I read on BF's MiLB forum that doubted his hit tool.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

vegasbrewcrew, the problem is that Gennett likely is not an impact bat. Nothing says that he is. And you mention getting on base consistently...sorry, but it's unlikely that Gennett carries an OBP higher than Weeks. I suggest if you want OBP, you check out Nick Shaw in AA.

 

It wouldnt hurt to find out if he can. The team has to start looking at other options. If Gennett flops then nothing changes. Weeks at this point is basically doing nothing.

[TooLiveBrew]

vegasbrewcrew, the problem is that Gennett likely is not an impact bat. Nothing says that he is. And you mention getting on base consistently...sorry, but it's unlikely that Gennett carries an OBP higher than Weeks. I suggest if you want OBP, you check out Nick Shaw in AA.

 

It wouldnt hurt to find out if he can. The team has to start looking at other options. If Gennett flops then nothing changes. Weeks at this point is basically doing nothing.

The counterpoint is to not waste service time on Gennett in a season in which he's not going to be the difference between making & missing the postseason.

[WV Brew]

Weeks is in decline at age 30. His best OBP was .374 back in 2007. Last year was .328 and he's barely above .300 now. Gennett won't have to walk much to match that. There is a big power difference. I say the Brewers should think about moving Rickie if they haven't improved by the All Star Break. Some team will think he can be difference in their pennant run.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

Weeks is in decline at age 30. His best OBP was .374 back in 2007. Last year was .328 and he's barely above .300 now. Gennett won't have to walk much to match that. There is a big power difference. I say the Brewers should think about moving Rickie if they haven't improved by the All Star Break. Some team will think he can be difference in their pennant run.

 

if only the brewers could be so lucky. i dont think anyone would trade a bag of doritos for him at this point. not only is he bad, but he's expensive considering his level of production. only way i think the crew will be able to trade him is if they eat the rest of the contract. for that i rather keep him on the bench. at least if he's on the bench he can't hurt the team. who know maybe as a bench player he might get a lucky hit or two.

[JohnBriggs12]

Unfortunately, not only do Weeks numbers look bad (they are), but he doesn't pass the eyeball test either assuming some team would be interested enough to send a scout.

 

He needs to be benched and sent a message.

 

Now as for Gennett, I don't think he's the type of talent you worry about service time, but at the same time, he's still useful when the guy playing 2B isn't hitting a lick. Bring Gennett up for 3 weeks and see what he does while Weeks works in the cage and looks at tape of himself from 3-4 years ago. If he flops, then once Hart comes up, they have options with Yuni or a presumably refreshed Weeks.

[3and2Fastball]

Roache is off to a decent start and is a fascinating player, to me. It'll be interesting to see how quickly he climbs the ladder

 

Through 14 games he is hitting .255/.361/.772 with 2 HR's and 2 Doubles. He has mainly played LF and not RF which is a concern. Does he have the arm to play RF? Can he play 1B?

 

Count me in on the Scooter Gennett bandwagon. The guy is hitting .354 in AAA as a 23 year old. True he doesn't walk enough but his career OBP is 38 points higher than his BA, its not like he never walks. I think he'll be a solid starter at 2B for the Brewers in the future

[3and2Fastball]

Scooter video/interview http://fox6now.com/2013/03/12/beyond-the-game-milwaukee-brewers-scooter-gennett/

[HiAndTight]

Unfortunately, not only do Weeks numbers look bad (they are), but he doesn't pass the eyeball test either assuming some team would be interested enough to send a scout.

 

He needs to be benched and sent a message.

 

Now as for Gennett, I don't think he's the type of talent you worry about service time, but at the same time, he's still useful when the guy playing 2B isn't hitting a lick. Bring Gennett up for 3 weeks and see what he does while Weeks works in the cage and looks at tape of himself from 3-4 years ago. If he flops, then once Hart comes up, they have options with Yuni or a presumably refreshed Weeks.

 

 

I can't fathom "benching Weeks to send him a message," is going to do a bit of good. Baseball's a sport you can't "try harder," at. You can't dig in like you can in football and put more into it. In fact, Weeks is probably trying too hard right now.

 

And his work ethic has never been his problem.

 

I WOULD say that if he's still struggling and by some act of God Yuni B is still performing like he is when Hart comes back, Weeks starts to lose a few AB's, but I even find that unlikely.

 

In any event, Gennett really should be playing 3rd and short right now in AAA. There is no prospect there that HAS to get those at bats and if nothing else, Gennett can be a very good utility player. Though I do still believe he's a everyday starter on a good team in the big leagues.

[HiAndTight]

Gennett's hit tool is without a doubt good & his best tool, but compare his MiLB career so far to Weeks's:

 

- Scooter: .304/.342/.416/.758

- Rickie: .289/.404/.493/.897

 

In almost twice the MiLB PAs, Gennett has tallied 23 HRs to Weeks's 21. Without power, almost every hitter struggles to make an impactful jump to the bigs. I would be more on Gennett's bandwagon if his defense was another plus skill, or if he were versatile enough to also cover SS & 3B. A low- to mid-.700s OPS 2B with average to below-avg. defense just doesn't have much value.

 

As for Roache, he unquestionably has the power to play corner OF in the Show, but it'll be how he develops his hit tool that determines his future.

 

Gennett gets base hits. He has at every single level he's played as a professional. It's really that simple. He's been a .300 hitter at each stop and he's off to yet another great start in AAA.

 

You can only wait so long for Weeks to be the superstar his ability suggests. It comes down to more than end of the year numbers. HOW you got to those numbers matters.

A mid 700 OPS with average defense at 2nd base who doesn't hit .160 for 3 months and then hit great the second half of the year absolutely does have value in the big leagues.

 

And we're talking about a 2nd basemen. Since when is it a per-requisite for him to be a power hitter? Plenty of hitters make an impact without hitting for power in the major leagues.

[TooLiveBrew]

If Gennett is only a singles & gap hitter with average-ish defense, he's not really anything special in MLB. Not many guys make a big impact with only one plus tool. I still think Gennett could bulk up more & turn some of those 2Bs into HRs, but he hasn't put on that much weight since being drafted. As has been said constantly all over this forum, his hit tool is an exciting one.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

If Gennett is only a singles & gap hitter with average-ish defense, he's not really anything special in MLB. Not many guys make a big impact with only one plus tool. I still think Gennett could bulk up more & turn some of those 2Bs into HRs, but he hasn't put on that much weight since being drafted. As has been said constantly all over this forum, his hit tool is an exciting one.

 

At this point we don't need someone special at 2B. We just need someone that is going to get on base. I'm fine with Gennett being ''Captain Single''. As long he gets on base that's fine. To me the ideal 2B hits a minimum of .280 and plays a minimum of slightly above average defense. I think that Gennett can hit above .280 and improve his defense. If his defense is already average it means that he won't be the Mr. Errors. Really as your players don't make errors and routinely make the simple plays, all is good. We've been trotting out Braun in left and his defense isn't that great. I can't think of a time when a defensive mistake from Braun cost us a game. I may be wrong on that seeing as how it's difficult to remember hundreds of game, that and Braun almost never does something bad.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yeah, I don't mean that I don't think Gennett can cut it at 2B, but I would definitely like to see the Brewers do better at any position than just 'adequate.' I just don't think he's going to be a very good player. He's certainly looking like, at the very least, he'll provide good value in his pre-arby seasons -- and for a small market, that's unquestionably important.

 

Braun was initially pretty brutal in LF, but he's definitely improved to the point where he's at worst average, and perhaps a tick above for the position imo. Gennett may well improve his defense as well, but from the reports on him over the years, it doesn't sound like he's gotten a whole heck of a lot better (not that he was awful to begin with, just average & limited to 2B-only, apparently).

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

Yeah, I don't mean that I don't think Gennett can cut it at 2B, but I would definitely like to see the Brewers do better at any position than just 'adequate.' I just don't think he's going to be a very good player. He's certainly looking like, at the very least, he'll provide good value in his pre-arby seasons -- and for a small market, that's unquestionably important.

 

Braun was initially pretty brutal in LF, but he's definitely improved to the point where he's at worst average, and perhaps a tick above for the position imo. Gennett may well improve his defense as well, but from the reports on him over the years, it doesn't sound like he's gotten a whole heck of a lot better (not that he was awful to begin with, just average & limited to 2B-only, apparently).

 

I agree 100% that the Brewers should never settle for adequate. If there are better options in next years FA, we should take a look. In May our best option is to call up Gennett. He's the most ready prospect at the position. I really don't want the Brewers to trade away prospects to fix 2B either. Weeks right now gets an F grade as a player. If Gennett can be a C it makes a heck of a difference. I don't mean to stray off topic but what do you think of Olmstead? Is he ready for a call up? The might have to start looking for alternative option regarding Axford.

[TooLiveBrew]

I agree 100% that the Brewers should never settle for adequate. If there are better options in next years FA, we should take a look. In May our best option is to call up Gennett. He's the most ready prospect at the position. I really don't want the Brewers to trade away prospects to fix 2B either. Weeks right now gets an F grade as a player. If Gennett can be a C it makes a heck of a difference. I don't mean to stray off topic but what do you think of Olmstead? Is he ready for a call up? The might have to start looking for alternative option regarding Axford.

My issue with calling up Gennett now, as I stated earlier, is that he's not going to be the difference btw. postseason & no-postseason. I would like to see him put in more time at Nashville, personally, to continue to work on his defense & hopefully develop a better power stroke against higher-level pitching. Also, save his service time.

 

On Olmsted -- he doesn't look ready yet this season. He's had his issues so far: 14 IP, 14 BB/15 K, 6.43 ERA as of tonight. Compare that to his 2012 MiLB numbers: 59.1 IP, 1.52 ERA, 15 BB/92 K (no, that's not a typo!). Hard to say what the cause of his command problems is... maybe some disappointment at not making the big club & repeating AAA after a dominant '12? Who knows. The arm is definitely there, and I'd rather he also keeps getting work with Nashville. No reason to add another wild arm to the disaster-party that is the big club's bullpen; let him sort out the command first & then call him up. For me, the sad truth is that there just isn't much bullpen help down in Nashville. I'm not confident that anyone there right now can come up & be an improvement, which is just painful.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing Victor Roache in person more, as I've probably mentioned a few too many times already on this subforum. I'm heading to Friday's game (trying out the new club level seating, too) & really looking forward to it. The only other T-Rats game I went to this season, I missed McFarland, so hoping to see him as well.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

I agree 100% that the Brewers should never settle for adequate. If there are better options in next years FA, we should take a look. In May our best option is to call up Gennett. He's the most ready prospect at the position. I really don't want the Brewers to trade away prospects to fix 2B either. Weeks right now gets an F grade as a player. If Gennett can be a C it makes a heck of a difference. I don't mean to stray off topic but what do you think of Olmstead? Is he ready for a call up? The might have to start looking for alternative option regarding Axford.

My issue with calling up Gennett now, as I stated earlier, is that he's not going to be the difference btw. postseason & no-postseason. I would like to see him put in more time at Nashville, personally, to continue to work on his defense & hopefully develop a better power stroke against higher-level pitching. Also, save his service time.

 

On Olmsted -- he doesn't look ready yet this season. He's had his issues so far: 14 IP, 14 BB/15 K, 6.43 ERA as of tonight. Compare that to his 2012 MiLB numbers: 59.1 IP, 1.52 ERA, 15 BB/92 K (no, that's not a typo!). Hard to say what the cause of his command problems is... maybe some disappointment at not making the big club & repeating AAA after a dominant '12? Who knows. The arm is definitely there, and I'd rather he also keeps getting work with Nashville. No reason to add another wild arm to the disaster-party that is the big club's bullpen; let him sort out the command first & then call him up. For me, the sad truth is that there just isn't much bullpen help down in Nashville. I'm not confident that anyone there right now can come up & be an improvement, which is just painful.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing Victor Roache in person more, as I've probably mentioned a few too many times already on this subforum. I'm heading to Friday's game (trying out the new club level seating, too) & really looking forward to it. The only other T-Rats game I went to this season, I missed McFarland, so hoping to see him as well.

 

I'm real excited about Victor Roache and Clint Coulter. I have no worries regarding the Brewers hitting prospects. We seem to do a good job of developing hitters. It's the pitching the scares me. It seems like our only options this year are to hope that our current BP guys work out or we sign a veteran and hope we get lucky. This Cardinals series has been a real downer. It's a long season though. Yuni and Gonzalez could be alternative options at 2B. Gonzalez is garbage on offense but his defense is still better than Weeks'. Weeks and Gonzalez are almost equally bad offensively. At least Gonzalez still makes smart plays on -defense. That would be a non-Gennett option.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yeah, if the move is to replace Weeks now that Ramírez is back, I'd much rather go with Yuni &/or González than start Gennett's clock. Since González has been so bad at the plate, & I think Yuni's coming back to earth sooner rather than later, I will still stick with Rickie at 2B -- but the dude needs some games off. Why Ron doesn't sit him for a couple days in a row... I will never know.

 

Coulter's an exciting hitting prospect, too. I hope the T-Rats' offense hits its potential in the first half this season; they should score a lot of runs.

[FVBrewerFan]

Unfortunately, not only do Weeks numbers look bad (they are), but he doesn't pass the eyeball test either assuming some team would be interested enough to send a scout.

 

He needs to be benched and sent a message.

 

Now as for Gennett, I don't think he's the type of talent you worry about service time, but at the same time, he's still useful when the guy playing 2B isn't hitting a lick. Bring Gennett up for 3 weeks and see what he does while Weeks works in the cage and looks at tape of himself from 3-4 years ago. If he flops, then once Hart comes up, they have options with Yuni or a presumably refreshed Weeks.

 

 

In any event, Gennett really should be playing 3rd and short right now in AAA. There is no prospect there that HAS to get those at bats and if nothing else, Gennett can be a very good utility player. Though I do still believe he's a everyday starter on a good team in the big leagues.

 

 

Gennett can be a very good utility IF? I don't think so, and neither does the organization. If they did, they would have been doing this a long time ago. Truth is, he's just now becoming a decent defensive 2B. He does not have the range, arm, or athletitic ability to be a really good defensive SS. Maybe 3B, I don't know. No real need for a Utility IF who can't play SS.

 

Look, I like Scooter. I really do. Watched him play a ton of games as a Timber Rattler, and you could tell he would moe through the system. I'm just really struggling to find a place for a guy who plays avg defense at one position, has no power, and doesn't walk much. That skill set rarely translates to success in MLB. Some of those IF singles and other hits he's getting now will be outs at the MLB level. You have to hit a ton of singles to have any sort of decent OPS.

[igor67]

I'd certainly rather have the one skill be hitting for average, but I think the skepticism can best be summed up as he needs to improve at least a little in these other areas to let the average play. The knock on the low power guys is always that after a certain point guys just go right after them. Usually this hits their walk rates, in Gennetts case he needs to be a true .300 hitter to support his current secondary skills, and those guys are pretty rare, particularly when their isn't power, exceptional speed, or a good eye to support it. He's shown enough to make me think he has a decent shot at doing it, but I could also see him hitting a pretty empty .280-.290, which isn't exciting anywhere other than off the bench.

[FVBrewerFan]

He's shown enough to make me think he has a decent shot at doing it, but I could also see him hitting a pretty empty .280-.290, which isn't exciting anywhere other than off the bench.

 

It's not even exciting off the bench. I can't imagine burning a roster spot for a bench player who can only play 2B.

[gregmag]

I get the love for Scooter. He's hitting .350. But it's going to run its course. This isn't a guy whose best tool is his ability to hit for average. This is a guy whose only tool is his ability to hit for average. Let's consider the record:

 

He has negligible power. Here are his ISO numbers, year by year: .154, .106, .102, .060. Yes, .060 so far this year, in his supposed breakout season, in the PCL.

 

He doesn't steal bases. Since going 14 of 18 in A ball in 2010, he has gone 26 of 44, which is much worse than just standing still.

 

He draws an unintentional walk fewer than five times per 100 PA, which is abysmal.

 

Someone who has seen him or understands infield defense better than I do can correct me, but my secondhand sense is that he has a mediocre defensive rep.

 

Now, if Scooter can hit .320 in MLB, the team can carry his considerable liabilities, and maybe he can help a little. But does anyone actually believe he's a .320 MLB hitter? His BA has actually decreased a bit at every level until this year's 100-PA binge: .309, .300, .293, and now .350. His career average is .303. But let's say he really is better than he ever was. Let's say he's a true .310 hitter at his present level.

 

What is that? A .310 hitter in the PCL, if things go well for him, is probably a .285 hitter in MLB. I'd say that's optimistic, but let's go with it. You're talking about a regular 2b, not great defensively, who hits .285 with no power, no speed, and no walks. That's your basic useless player. That's Jim Gantner after his star, such as it was, fell.

 

But maybe he'll improve, right? Well, most players do improve through their mid-20s. But Scooter hasn't given us any reason -- other than 100 PAs' worth of singles in the PCL -- to suggest how he could get better. He's 23, certainly young enough to improve but not young for a prospect. You can't look at his body and see promise; he's getting everything he can out of his body (and good for him). He's gotten worse at every minor league level before this year.

 

I look at Gennett, and I see a rich man's Eric Farris. The reason not to give him a shot has nothing to do with Weeks. The reason not to give him a shot is that the strong weight of the evidence suggests he'd be a very bad major league player.

[HiAndTight]

Unfortunately, not only do Weeks numbers look bad (they are), but he doesn't pass the eyeball test either assuming some team would be interested enough to send a scout.

 

He needs to be benched and sent a message.

 

Now as for Gennett, I don't think he's the type of talent you worry about service time, but at the same time, he's still useful when the guy playing 2B isn't hitting a lick. Bring Gennett up for 3 weeks and see what he does while Weeks works in the cage and looks at tape of himself from 3-4 years ago. If he flops, then once Hart comes up, they have options with Yuni or a presumably refreshed Weeks.

 

 

In any event, Gennett really should be playing 3rd and short right now in AAA. There is no prospect there that HAS to get those at bats and if nothing else, Gennett can be a very good utility player. Though I do still believe he's a everyday starter on a good team in the big leagues.

 

 

Gennett can be a very good utility IF? I don't think so, and neither does the organization. If they did, they would have been doing this a long time ago. Truth is, he's just now becoming a decent defensive 2B. He does not have the range, arm, or athletitic ability to be a really good defensive SS. Maybe 3B, I don't know. No real need for a Utility IF who can't play SS.

 

Look, I like Scooter. I really do. Watched him play a ton of games as a Timber Rattler, and you could tell he would moe through the system. I'm just really struggling to find a place for a guy who plays avg defense at one position, has no power, and doesn't walk much. That skill set rarely translates to success in MLB. Some of those IF singles and other hits he's getting now will be outs at the MLB level. You have to hit a ton of singles to have any sort of decent OPS.

 

 

Since when do backup SS's have to be "really good," at SS? Eck certainly wasn't, yet he was a productive player for a period of time.

 

And with pretty constant questioning of how the Brewers handle their prospects, I wouldn't think the "well, they must agree it's a bad idea because they haven't done it yet," argument. I wouldn't profess to know what the organization thinks of Scooter Gennett other than Melvin has praised him as he's obviously been brought up with more frequency. I just don't know how you can make the decision that the Brewers don't believe a consistent .300 hitter at every level in the minors who has shown SOME power and certainly the ability to add more CAN'T be a good utility fielder. Perhaps they believe he can be a great one they just view him as their future 2nd basemen? I don't know and I wouldn't presume to speak FOR the team.

 

And his athletic skills are really underestimated. He obviously isn't going to be Ozzie Smith at short, but with Jean Segura there, wouldn't really have to be. Same at 3rd. He's got a stronger arm than he's given credit for, and I think he has better range from what I've seen than he's given credit for.

 

I'm not talking about moving him like Lawrie moved from 2nd to 3rd, Braun to LF....I'm talking about him getting a few starts around the horn.

 

At how many levels does the guy have to prove to himself before we stop banging the drums that he can't be an everyday player? Hit hits the ball, has good gap power, and is capable of being a .300 player as well as a good everyday defender at 2nd.

 

Not every prospect is going to fit into the prototypical sabermetric profile or be an elite player.

 

 

Bottom line;

.303/.343/.415 OPS of .757 as he's played a full year at every level and has been remarkably consistent at each level. Why the search, in an organization lacking almost accross the board in potential everyday big league bats, why are we so quick to dismiss him because he's not Rickie Weeks(which really is what you're getting at with the lack of walks and power.

 

Not every player is going to walk 12 pct of the time and hit for power. Some guys are going to consistently make contact, draw few walks and their OB is obviously going to be driven by their BA. I think Gennett will get better and walk more consistently, but he'll never be Weeks in that regard...nor does he HAVE to be. I love the new information that has been readily available to us the last 15 years as much as anyone else, but man, people use it as their bible. Game's still played on the field. That's a GENERAL statement rather than all directed towards you. Afterall, the minors is for DEVELOPING players, and Scooter is developing just fine. And he's taking off in AAA at the age of 23.

[splitterpfj]

I'm rooting for Scooter, and I still think he's going to start at second base for someone in the big leagues for a few years. I think he'll be a "just enough" kind of guy for someone to give him a spot.

 

The one really negative development that has happened this year, which could change what I just said, is the complete disappearance of power.

 

Before this season, Scooter was a 30 doubles, 5 homers guy...not much power, but a little something. This season, he has 36 hits, for 42 total bases. That's 31 singles, 4 doubles, 1 triple. If that's what he is going forward, that won't work - pitchers will just pound the strike zone and make him hit it, and he doesn't have the speed to leg out a bunch of extra infield hits, he'll have to poke it into the outfield for a single, A LOT, to have value as a hitter.

 

Scooter doesn't have the speed to steal bases, at the rate he gets caught, it's best if he just stays where he is. I wouldn't call him slow, but just an average runner. He also has an average glove, I don't hear people calling him bad in the field, just average. If you're average on the bases, and average in the field, with almost no power at all, and few walks....all you have is a pile of singles. That won't work, beyond perhaps a career as a pinch hitter.

 

I'm rooting for the 30 doubles and 5 homers to return, and I'm hoping at least a few more walks come with time. If Scooter has a little bit of power, with a decent batting average, I would bet someone will accept his average glove and speed in their lineup for a little while.