Could there be a strong market for Lohse?

[monty57]

cbssportsline today quoted Melvin saying that they're not moving Gallardo (this was before he left the game injured today), and they have one offer on the table for a pitcher, but it's not likely to lead to a deal. He didn't say who the pitcher was or whether it was a reliever or starter.

[Warning Track Power]

According to MLB Trade Rumors the Indians are working hard to get a starter...

 

Lohse for Bauer. Do it.

[brewmann04]

Think the Fan Base will be somewhat schocked when Nothing happens today. Just don't see Melvin Making any moves.

[Warning Track Power]

Disappointed is the right word...

 

Apparently Attanasio and Melvin believe that a 2014 rotation of Yo, Lohse, Peralta, Thornburg, Hand/Hellweg/whoever, combined with an off suspension and healthy Braun, healthy Ramirez and, likely, Hart, will put the Brewers back in contention. I don't see it.

 

It pains me to say it, but I really wish we were doing what the Cubs have been doing with the deals they have made the past year. Dealing Maholm, Garza, Marshall, Feldman, etc... are moves the Brewers should have been doing for the past month or so with Axford, Aoki, Henderson, Lohse, etc...

[monty57]

Well, my belief is that if Lohse had Garza's contract, he could've been traded for a similar package to what the Cubs got for Garza.

 

The rumor was that the Brewers were looking for talent equivalent to the first rounder they gave up (significantly less than what the Cubs got for Garza), and they apparently haven't been offered even that much.

 

Therefore, I believe the contract has significant negative value in most other GM/owners' eyes.

[brwrsfan]

If they believe that, I guess that's their perogative (I disagree), but they still should move someone like Gonzalez. He's a FA after this year, and if he can bring back even an average a ball prospect, they should do it. Having this season won't mean a thing anyways.

[splitterpfj]

I've never gotten the sense that Milwaukee was actively trying to trade Lohse. Would they? Yes. Were they actually engaged in moving him? No, I haven't seen or heard anything that would indicate that.

 

I really think they decided to keep him here through the season, barring someone really coming to get him. I do think the money he is owed is a factor, as it was in the Peavy deal, which should have netted Chicago a better package than it did, and that is precisely why I think they're waiting until the winter to pursue deals for Lohse. Lohse will actually be cheaper than the average bear in December, with a track record.

 

Gallardo was young and cheap for his skills, so you heard a lot more about his availability, because it would have made great sense for teams to pay for him with prospects...but he flopped this season, so they have to wait on him too. On talent, and on current stats, there's just no reason not to come after Lohse, but if you can't get a really good young arm in the return...the Brewers are right to wait and try this in a few months, when all 29 teams will be open for business.

 

Just look at the Peavy deal...Boston has four excellent young arms right now, they could afford to give one up, but somehow they got Peavy, giving up a shortstop they don't need, and three guys who won't be missed, but Boston took his entire contract. If the Brewers had done something like that with Lohse, I would not be happy.

[brewmann04]

No one knows what is anything Doug was offered for any player,so it hard to complain either way sure we like trades but sometomes they are not feasible.

[TooLiveBrew]

According to MLB Trade Rumors the Indians are working hard to get a starter...

 

Lohse for Bauer. Do it.

If they're willing to move Bauer, they'd be able to get someone younger than Lohse.

 

Now, if they'd somehow agree to that deal, I'd say 'yes' & hang up before they could change their minds.

[Dollarbill13]

We can still potentially move Axford until 8/31 as I think he's likely to clear waivers (or if he doesn't, let him go for the salary relief), but I'm disappointed that we couldn't put together another trade where we'd deal a reliever or Aoki. IMO, this was the optimal time to move Aoki as he's still cheap and under control through all of next season.

[Dollarbill13]

^^ I meant to post that in the Sellers at the Trade Deadline thread.

[brewmann04]

Well think no one is suprised as the Brewers make no moves.

[monty57]

Well think no one is suprised as the Brewers make no moves.

 

No, I'm not surprised that the clowns who run this organization, seemingly more interested in perception than production, decided to sit on their hands and put up the facade of "going for it" again next year. It saddens me, but doesn't surprise me. I think I've finally hit the point where I'm not going to schedule my activities around when the Brewers play, making sure to tune in every night no matter who they throw on the field and what boneheaded moves they make. It's not worth my time to watch the ship sink, while they try to con the fans into believing that the same group that has performed poorly in the past will suddenly be a playoff team.

 

Mr. Attanasio, you brought some energy to a desperate team and have done a great job building revenue streams, but you really need to get out of player personnel decisions. Your primary goal is keeping fans in the seat, and you seem to believe that the fans are idiots who can be hoodwinked by whatever shiny bauble you dangle under their nose. Personally, I don't like being included in that group, but maybe enough people will drink the "next FA signing" Kool-Aid to keep the revenue rolling in. You'll need it in order to cover all the bad contracts you've signed.

 

Mr. Melvin, your tenure has brought far less return than I expected when we had the young talent of guys like Fielder, Weeks and Hardy making their way onto the MLB field, and now the decisions you've made have added up to making the Brewers potentially the worst franchise in all of Major League baseball. Congrats on that.

 

While the rest of the teams in our division seem to be well-managed (even the historically poorly managed Pirates and Cubs), our management is doing their best to drive the bus off the cliff. So, for the first time in at least fifteen years, the Brewers were playing last night, the game was televised, I didn't have a pressing obligation, yet I didn't watch it. It doesn't sound like I missed much, but I think that going forward, far less of my free time will be spent watching this train wreck which I've seen coming for a few years. I'm sure the Brewers organization won't notice I'm not tuning in as much, but it seems that this small gesture is the only thing I can do to "voice" my frustration.

 

I, for one, just can't take it anymore. Maybe a hiatus will clear my head and let me return in the future to watch the Brewers as a "casual fan." I hope so, because I still love baseball. The realization that the mis-management of the Brewers has me in the position that for the next decade or so I'll have to hope the Pirates or Reds knock off the Cardinals and Cubs while the Brewers languish at the bottom of the division is disheartening.

 

When you don't have "there's always next year" to fall back on, it's time to move on.

[fondybrewfan]

Who could we really have traded and gotten anything worthwhile for? The returns at the deadline this year were incredibly pathetic. In fact Melvin might have gotten the best return of anyone with the Krod transaction.

 

Aoki is a valuable commidity in 2014 even if the Brewers aren't going to the playoffs. He is dirt cheap. Given how Lohse has been performing I wouldn't want to give him away for peanuts. Maybe the market will be better in the offseason. Maybe teams were just scared out of their mind this year about who might be on the Biogenesis list. The Brewers just didn't have a whole lot of tradeable assets this year and how soon people forget how big of a steal Melvin got at the 2012 deadline. Melvin has been pretty darn good with trades during his tenure; his problem has always been with his FA acquisitions. If he would have gotten a worthwhile offer for basically anyone he would have taken it. He has never been afraid to pull the trigger

[LouisEly]

Monty, looking at what the White Sox got for Peavey, would you have been happy with that as a return for Lohse? I would not have been. Melvin has also said before that you can get more value for position players in the offseason than at the trade deadline.

 

You are assuming that the reason only K-Rod was traded was because Melvin thinks he can compete next year; how do you know it wasn't because all that was offered was junk? If all that is offered is a middling prospect or two that has a low ceiling and projects to be replacement level at best, then what's the point of making the trade? If you think you can get more for Lohse and others by waiting until the offseason or next year when those guys are owed less money, they why not wait? Arguably the best prospect return in a trade this year was what the Brewers got for K-Rod, and this is probably because of how little monetary risk there was in acquiring K-Rod. Yes, there is some risk that the players may get injured or drop off if you wait, but if you are going to get a higher return you have to take more of a risk. The only way to truly restock the farm system is to take higher risks that lead to higher rewards.

 

Trading for low-ceiling prospects is just the same as drafting low-ceiling prospects. Low risk/low reward moves aren't going to do it. As for the Cubs/Pirates, they have had high draft picks for so long that they should be good by now. That's the whole point of the draft system - let the worst teams draft first so that they can get better players and become better teams so that it isn't the same teams winning/losing every year. The system is designed to be cyclical.

[logan82]

Aoki is still more expensive than Schafer, Davis and Gindl.

[JohnBriggs12]

LouisEly,

 

I think the White Sox got a nice return for Peavy. They got $19 million in salary relief this year and next, and a guy in Garcia who will be an everyday player for them for years to come and could turn into a star.

 

The White Sox are in much more dire straits than the Brewers. They had nothing in position players and plenty of holes to fill so they were seeking an everyday player.

 

Peavy would have been less attractive if he were signed for 2 more years. Lohse's value figures to be higher next year than it is this year.

[monty57]

Monty, looking at what the White Sox got for Peavey, would you have been happy with that as a return for Lohse?

 

I'd have been happy if they had never signed Lohse, but now they're stuck with him, as they're stuck with a lot of other dead money deals. As much as some people say Lohse has trade value, he apparently doesn't have the value of the first round pick they lost for him, and now I believe you are correct that all they'd get for him is "junk." So yes, I'd have been happy to get "junk" as long as it would rid the team of the future obligation owed. Really, I'd be content if it appeared that we had a plan in place rather than just trying to throw money at anyone the fans know in order to keep them around, regardless of the future ramifications. Attanasio believes that fans want to watch a team that has players they're familiar with, and I think that's a flawed assumption.

 

But it's not just the "what could we do now" that bothers me. Posters argue back and forth about the micros, but if you look at the whole picture, we had a very promising future not that long ago. I (along with most here) suffered through a lot of bad Brewer teams, and was very excited about the future. Now here we are a few years later, and looking at where we are and where we've been, I've lost all that excitement. I believe that had it been managed differently, we would not have to be in the position we are in, which is a pathetic Major League team with a pathetic Minor League system. While I enjoyed making the playoffs, I can't say that all my dreams were fulfilled, and a decade of futility will be worth it because we almost made it to the World Series. That is the epitome of a loser's mentality. I used the term "suffer" earlier, and I think that our failed attempt to go all in in one year will lead to a lot of suffering in the future. Was it worth it?

 

If I had money invested in the stock of a company that was managed this poorly, I would have sold a long time ago. I have no financial interest in the Brewers, but I have invested thousands of hours into the team, and there is really no logical reasoning for it... just blind loyalty to a logo and an ideal, I guess. I run two businesses, and it's really hard for me to continue to cheer for poor management. I hold nothing against anyone who continues to hold onto hope. Loyalty is great, but as I try to look deeper into what's going on with the team (from a business perspective), I continue to wonder what they're doing to fight to retain my loyalty. Signing "name" players to bad deals? That should be insulting to anyone but the most casual of fans.

 

Yesterday's inaction is just one more brick in a long road of failures to plan beyond next year. It just may be the one brick that breaks my back as a fan.

[TigerUppercut]

Monty, looking at what the White Sox got for Peavey, would you have been happy with that as a return for Lohse?

 

I'd have been happy if they had never signed Lohse, but now they're stuck with him, as they're stuck with a lot of other dead money deals. As much as some people say Lohse has trade value, he apparently doesn't have the value of the first round pick they lost for him, and now I believe you are correct that all they'd get for him is "junk." So yes, I'd have been happy to get "junk" as long as it would rid the team of the future obligation owed. Really, I'd be content if it appeared that we had a plan in place rather than just trying to throw money at anyone the fans know in order to keep them around, regardless of the future ramifications. Attanasio believes that fans want to watch a team that has players they're familiar with, and I think that's a flawed assumption.

 

But it's not just the "what could we do now" that bothers me. Posters argue back and forth about the micros, but if you look at the whole picture, we had a very promising future not that long ago. I (along with most here) suffered through a lot of bad Brewer teams, and was very excited about the future. Now here we are a few years later, and looking at where we are and where we've been, I've lost all that excitement. I believe that had it been managed differently, we would not have to be in the position we are in, which is a pathetic Major League team with a pathetic Minor League system. While I enjoyed making the playoffs, I can't say that all my dreams were fulfilled, and a decade of futility will be worth it because we almost made it to the World Series. That is the epitome of a loser's mentality. I used the term "suffer" earlier, and I think that our failed attempt to go all in in one year will lead to a lot of suffering in the future. Was it worth it?

 

If I had money invested in the stock of a company that was managed this poorly, I would have sold a long time ago. I have no financial interest in the Brewers, but I have invested thousands of hours into the team, and there is really no logical reasoning for it... just blind loyalty to a logo and an ideal, I guess. I run two businesses, and it's really hard for me to continue to cheer for poor management. I hold nothing against anyone who continues to hold onto hope. Loyalty is great, but as I try to look deeper into what's going on with the team (from a business perspective), I continue to wonder what they're doing to fight to retain my loyalty. Signing "name" players to bad deals? That should be insulting to anyone but the most casual of fans.

 

Yesterday's inaction is just one more brick in a long road of failures to plan beyond next year. It just may be the one brick that breaks my back as a fan.

 

So this begs the question, what is the Lohse signing preventing the Brewers from doing in your mind that is holding them back? Keep in mind that you can't bang on Melvin's free agent acquisitions and then say his salary is preventing them from making moves this offseason. They also managed to get a pitcher who I've been told they likely would have taken with their pick in the 1st round, so tough to argue the draft angle. I get people wanting instant gratification and something new to hold onto, but as long as he continues to pitch well he's an asset.

[splitterpfj]

I think the Sox were much more motivated to deal Peavy, because of his health history, if he gets hurt again...his value is gone.

 

Boston made out like bandits in that trade, they didn't give up one guy they'll miss, and they added Peavy, but, by pulling Detroit in, at least the White Sox got one good prospect in the mix.

 

Kyle Lohse is a good pitcher, and his contract is not a problem, the Brewers signing him has been an excellent move so far, nothing about having him here has hurt Milwaukee. This is a pretty easy one to see...Lohse could pitch well here for the duration of his contract, Lohse could be traded for some nice young talent, or Lohse could break down...two outta three ain't bad.

 

My guess...Lohse will be traded this winter, for a better group of prospects than Chicago just got for Peavy.

[monty57]

Again, I'm done focusing on the micros, because it goes around-and-around, and anything said becomes purely speculation. I am anything but someone wanting "instant gratification." What I've argued for a few years now is the opposite of that. I will gladly give up "instant gratification" for a solid, long-term plan for success in a smaller-market.

 

What the Brewers have done has catered to those seeking "instant gratification." Constantly looking out for "today" at the expense of the future is why our franchise is in shambles. Taking every move made and not made has led us where we are. Not that long ago, we had two players who have put up Hall of Fame numbers in the majors (Fielder and Braun) along with several multiple-time All Stars all coming up around the same time, all playing for league minimum, and a payroll that was rising at an astounding rate. From that, we managed two playoff appearances (no World Series) and are now among the worst franchises in baseball. Was that pre-determined fate, or did Brewer management have something to do with it?

 

So no, I don't want to argue about what may or may not have been a potential outcome had Lohse not been signed. I don't want to argue any move or non-move, as they have all been argued to death. I will just say that it is a summation of everything Brewer management has done (and not done) that has us where we are, and I think that had we taken a different tack, we would probably be in a better situation going forward. I understand that could possibly mean a myriad of things, including potentially not having made the playoffs twice, but that is all hypothetical.

 

The only reality is what has happened and where we are, and I don't like where we are. Right now as a Brewer fan, reality sucks. If any private individual outside of the monopoly that is baseball had run their business the way the Brewers have been run, constantly trading in the future for the present, they would be swallowed up by their better-run competitors. Currently, every other team in the NL Central owns the Brewers, and due to years of bad management/"planning" by the Brewer organization, I don't see that changing for a long time.

 

I hadn't intended to post anything beyond my initial post this morning, so I'll stop my ranting now. I've been saying the same thing for a few years, so if people don't know where I'm coming from by now, they never will. I'm just coming to the point that it's not worth my time caring anymore. If the Brewers want to run their franchise like a rudderless ship, it only matters to me if I let it.

[jackailius]

While I agree to a point with the we traded it all away to win now, who did we really trade away that could have been a cornerstone for the future? Maybe we could have got more for Lawrie but look back before his late season collaps Marcum was a big part, especially early in the season for the success that lead us to the playoffs. The Grienke trade, I don't know, Escobar, Cain and Odarizzi are all ok to pretty good but I'm not sold on any of them being franchise cornerstones and after riding Grienke to the playoffs we basically netted back what we lost from a talent standpoint as far as my eyes can tell. Sabathia I still think we got the better end of as there was noone in that trade looking back that is a difference maker.

 

I don't know if I agree with clasifying Fielder as a future HOFer. I do wish we could have kept him but for me they made the right move walking away and I don't beleive,even early in his career, the Brewers could have locked up his FA years. I do think the Brewers need to try to lock up their - look like stars/solid players in the making earlier in their careers so the price is reasonable and if one or two flame out it isn't so painful ala Ricky and to a point Hart.

 

From my standpoint I turn a raised eyebrow to our scouting, drafting and development. If you look at what Theo is doing in Chicago with the international draft it is brilliant. If we could have done that we would be great in a couple years from international draft side. My concern is next year other teams are going to see how Theo abused the system this year, pay the penalties and drive up prices. I also think that we really need to be scouting international free agents better. We hit paydirt with Aoki but we have to take more chances out there and at least have scouts around the world taking a hard look because just drafting is going to be slow, especially with restrictions on spending etc there.

 

I think especially going forward relying on FAs, especially impact players, is going to be more and more difficult and expensive for teams to get, especially small market teams like ours so we really need to cultivate the minor league. While I don't think any of the trades we made was really all that detrimental the fact that we traded away our BEST prospects in these deals and average in the majors is about all the recieving team has seen out of them speaks volumes about where we are at from scouting to development.

 

On the positive, if we can turn around the scouting and drafting, we do have some pretty important holes filled with talent already for several years before replacement is needed- ie CF, SS, C and I think if Braun can even produce at 90% of what he has in the past several (PEDs) years going forward he is still a cornerstone. Obviously pitching is something to focus on for us because servicable 1st basemen and OFers typically can be found more prevelantly and cheaper on the FA market if a hole there needs to be filled.

 

Just my .02

[TooLiveBrew]

While I agree to a point with the we traded it all away to win now, who did we really trade away that could have been a cornerstone for the future?

 

This is not the point, yet it's nearly always the point that those who disagree with the organization-building approach (as opposed to the MLB-team-building approach Melvin & Attanasio seem to like) take away.

 

The point is that, when making trades, there is nothing limiting the organization to trade for short-term rentals. To use the Lawrie example... when he was traded, I feel extremely confident in saying that Lawrie could've brought back a good young SP that the team would've controlled for at least 4-6 seasons. Instead, Melvin opted for a player who was under team control at most for two seasons, and on top of that was an aging SP with serious injury history & poor velocity (aka someone who was not likely to age well).

 

If this discussion continues to get reduced to the blinders-on 'Well no one they traded away would've been a key player for the Brewers', then this conversation will just continue to spin its wheels. Both sides of this discussion have to be willing to step back & consider things on the larger scale.

[fondybrewfan]

He traded for Marcum because his performance was well established. Perhaps he could have traded Lawrie for a younger pitcher but that pitcher might not have been ready to help us in 2011 when we really needed him to. A young SP is worth far more than a young 2b/3b so I have a hard time beleiving Melvin could have acquired a comparable high upside pre arby player like you think he could.

 

All in all that Lawrie trade worked out pretty well for us; Marcum was obviously very instrumental in the success that year. Hindisght is 20/20 but given the situation we were in it wasn't unreasonable that Melvin was looking for a vet he could count on rather than a young guy who may or may not have been ready to help for a playoff run.

[jackailius]

Again I'm not disagreeing and why I said that building organically needs to be more the priority but when you get to the point where you feel you can realistically go for it you do trade from what should be your surplus of what those who aren't contending are going to want (prospects) for those who can shore up the one or two holes that you may have. I think the real big issue isn't trading prospects for needs, its the lack of quality prospects in the first place to limit the holes you need to fill. Its great saying Lawrie could have been traded for a young pitcher we could control but it would basically be a prospect for a prospect so no hole is filled at the ML level for either team. I think the real thing it goes back to is scouting and development. At some point every team needs to trade to fill gaps and typically what the team in contention is looking for is someone known and reliable becuase they are in the playoff hunt and believe they got a shot and the other team is building and want a prospect. If they aren't out of contention they probably are not trading someone reliable, dependable and experienced because they are going to want that as well.

 

I do agree in principle that we will implode if our mantra every 2 to 3 years is we need to fill hole a and be and to do so we will trade 5 or 6 of the top prospects in our organization. But back to the point of better scouting and development, if we are doing it and locking our talent early, we shouldn't have as many holes and when we do need to trade the talent across the board for us is higher so what we lose nets us more with less affect on our overall system.