Could there be a strong market for Lohse?

[logan82]

All in all that Lawrie trade worked out pretty well for us; Marcum was obviously very instrumental in the success that year. Hindisght is 20/20 but given the situation we were in it wasn't unreasonable that Melvin was looking for a vet he could count on rather than a young guy who may or may not have been ready to help for a playoff run.

It wasn't hindsight. There were several posters who were lukewarm at best about that trade at the time it happened.

[jackailius]

So would you have stand pat, not get him and roll out without him for the year? I don't remember a ton of other viable options at that point from a trade standpoint. The wheels may have fallen off at the end but what else do you do. I don't want to be the Royals either who always tend to stand pat for the most part and its always next year for them when there talent graduates and then they compete but next year never comes.

[TooLiveBrew]

So would you have stand pat

 

I wish Melvin would have looked elsewhere. Just because there weren't rumors about a player doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have been traded. At the time, Lawrie was a top-50 prospect & I think there would have been interest from other teams with young pitching depth.

[trwi7]

The problem with Marcum was he was two years away from free agency, had a pretty significant injury history and was already 29 years old. Even if he pitched well, with his injury and his stuff would you really want to re-sign him if he had pitched two healthy years with the Brewers? I wouldn't have.

 

As far as what could have been done. Baseball America ranked Lawrie as the #40 prospect in baseball that year. Two pitching prospects from teams that wanted offense were traded either that trade deadline or the next winter. Michael Pineda of the Mariners (#16 by BA) and Zack Wheeler (#55 by BA). I would have gone after either of them first. Obviously Pineda has been hurt with the Yankees but even if he got traded to the Brewers and got hurt I would have at least understood the reasoning behind the trade, a top prospect pitcher with great stuff and 5 years of team control left. Wheeler is obviously a top prospect and is now in the bigs for the Mets.

[HiAndTight]

While I agree to a point with the we traded it all away to win now, who did we really trade away that could have been a cornerstone for the future?

 

This is not the point, yet it's nearly always the point that those who disagree with the organization-building approach (as opposed to the MLB-team-building approach Melvin & Attanasio seem to like) take away.

 

The point is that, when making trades, there is nothing limiting the organization to trade for short-term rentals. To use the Lawrie example... when he was traded, I feel extremely confident in saying that Lawrie could've brought back a good young SP that the team would've controlled for at least 4-6 seasons. Instead, Melvin opted for a player who was under team control at most for two seasons, and on top of that was an aging SP with serious injury history & poor velocity (aka someone who was not likely to age well).

 

If this discussion continues to get reduced to the blinders-on 'Well no one they traded away would've been a key player for the Brewers', then this conversation will just continue to spin its wheels. Both sides of this discussion have to be willing to step back & consider things on the larger scale.

\

 

First of all, you can't sit there and evaluate the main trades we've made in which it not looks like we've come out WAY ahead and say, "you can't bring that up," and then try and separate people into groups who either advocate...as YOU put it, an "MLB building approach," vs a "organizational building approach." When you make significant trades like we did for Greinke and we get back more talent than we gave up, how is that NOT the point when you're advocating organizational building approaches? Part of that organization are the Brewers big league team. Kinda a big part. The Grienke/Marcum were resounding successes as opposed to the Marcum trade when it stands along as I was. Though Lawrie has certainly been ripped apart on here for his attitude(though seemingly only when conveniently as he's also the poster boy for the "win now," argument). But we got Greinke, won more games than we ever had before and now have a franchise centerpiece at SS and two VERY talented power arms. You could very easily argue we got back MORE for Greinke than we gave up. So it's very much the point if you want to try and divide everyone into two groups if they don't agree with the narrative on the board right now.

 

With regard to Lawrie, correct me if I'm wrong, but we tried to do just that and Seattle turned down a Michael Pineda for Brett Lawrie trade before we traded for Marcum. A trade that even now I'd would have preffered because it would have made more sense, but teams aren't as likely to trade a equally talented young pitcher for an equally talented young position player. I've felt pretty comfortable we could have gotten offered more than Daniel Hudson for Prince Fielder(or some equally bad deal that was offered prior to the 2011 season) and yet Melvin shopped him and it didn't happen, even saying that the market was shockingly low on Prince at the time. This is where a HUUUUGE part of the disconnect comes from this board and real life IMO. Everyone has ideas on what the Brewers should do and they have their fantasy trades worked out just assuming the other team is A-going to actually MAKE such a trade, or B-that a trade is determined based upon Baseball America's rankings. I love to throw out trade suggestions as well. However when they don't make those trades I don't try and pigeon hole Melvin into a "win now," type guy and argue that he's not worried about building the organization first. We tried to rebuild the year before we won 96 games and there simply weren't any takers.

 

We shopped several players on the current roster and we didn't get the offers back for them for a plethora of reasons.

 

And I agree, both sides have to step back. But as sick as you are of hearing about how the trades haven't heard us, I'm equally as sick of hearing how much they've helped us and all the fantastic moves Melvin has made. Getting Grienke, winning 96 games, going to game 6 in the NLCS and then getting back Segura, Hellweg and Pena. Signing K-Rod to a minor league deal and then getting a very good young player in Nick Delmonico, a player that the O's reportedly(according to MLB.com) said was unavailable just 3 weeks prior even after he got ripped for that signing.

 

There's also this nonsensical argument that the Brewers scouting "targeted," big college pitchers with ceilings of that of a 3-4. It's intellectually dishonest. Everyone had Jungman and Bradley as potential 1/2 type pitchers which is why they were 8 and 9 in BA's overall rankings. Of course Fernandez would have been better, but it's real easy to sit here and wait a couple years and say, "see, should have taken him." Bradley at one point was thought of as a potential top 3 pick after his fall league performance the previous year.

 

It's also just low hanging fruit for people who've been blasting Melvin/Mark A even during our successful run in a year in which most everything has gone wrong. We've gotten a fraction of what one would just naturally expect from our 3-4-5 hitters even in a average/down year with Braun/Aram/Hart's absences in the lineup. Gallardo also is having his worst year...because of the WBC, regression, I have no idea, but I don't think many saw that coming. Melvin's wise not to trade him just to trade him, similar to what many wanted the Brewers to do with Prince Fielder when the offers we were getting were significantly inferior to expectations.

 

 

It can almost get amusing with the complaining at times. Just go back and read the draft thread in which everyone's mocking who we're likely going to take and how they hope we can get a good young HS arm with upside. We get exactly that guy and yet there are still sarcastic comments about the draft picks from many of those same people. I think it'd be interesting for everyone to watch the "inside the war room video," where the Brewers 20+ picks away target Williams and tell him what they're willing to pay in an attempt to get other teams to pass on him. That wasn't a scouting department without a clue.

 

This franchise has not been run terribly, it's definitely had it's share of hiccups. Starting with Arnett whom I again would like to remind everyone, the consensus on this board was that he was a great pick while waiting for THAT pick, most were hoping he'd slip to us and were elated when he did. Then we lose a 1st round draft pick on a HIGH SCHOOL arm(despite the near consensus that we only target low ceiling college arms). Get two the next year, spend those two on college pitchers who again, were rated 8th and 9th just prior to the draft and were big bodied power pitchers, and one is pitching well, one's still struggling. HOWEVER, we've also brought in a lot of young talent during that time. Roache, Coulter, Taylor, Hanniger(again, not getting this myth that we don't draft high upside guys or prep talent or at least shy away from it).

 

 

The Twins also went through a terrible period organization wide as have the A's and pretty much every small market team except the Cards and TB in the last decade. That doesn't mean the Brewers aren't trying to rebuild the farm system. The spent more on two players from LA than they'd ever spent before just recently. Some of their young extremely ceiling players are coming along, and we should be picking in the top 5 this year and next.

 

Wouldn't be real hard to envision the Brewers picking up and instant top 20 prospect in next Junes draft, perhaps a few more nice prospects if everything doesn't go awry next year(ie, Gallardo, Weeks, Ramirez, Hart, Axford did this year) and we add more talent next year, throw in another top pick and in the meantime Tyrone Taylor, Clint Coulter, Victor Rouche, Delmanico, Nelson, Jungman, Arcia and a plethora of other players should be moving up the pipeline in the meantime, and the Brewers farm system could make a significant leap.

 

 

So I guess aside from not being able to go back and re-draft players, almost none of whom were over-drafts unless you use revisionist history and then the signing of Kyle Lohse and giving up the 17th pick, how has Melvin/Attanasio not made an effort to "build the organization?"

 

A lack of success in doing so over the past 2-3 years doesn't equate to a lack of effort.

[HiAndTight]

The problem with Marcum was he was two years away from free agency, had a pretty significant injury history and was already 29 years old. Even if he pitched well, with his injury and his stuff would you really want to re-sign him if he had pitched two healthy years with the Brewers? I wouldn't have.

 

As far as what could have been done. Baseball America ranked Lawrie as the #40 prospect in baseball that year. Two pitching prospects from teams that wanted offense were traded either that trade deadline or the next winter. Michael Pineda of the Mariners (#16 by BA) and Zack Wheeler (#55 by BA). I would have gone after either of them first. Obviously Pineda has been hurt with the Yankees but even if he got traded to the Brewers and got hurt I would have at least understood the reasoning behind the trade, a top prospect pitcher with great stuff and 5 years of team control left. Wheeler is obviously a top prospect and is now in the bigs for the Mets.

 

 

 

I agree. I would have liked to have seen the Brewers trade under team control for longer than 2 years. I hated everything about the Marcum trade. I hated the type of pitcher he was, the contract situation, how good I THOUGHT Lawrie would have been by now(and still think he will be...at least if they don't screw around with him at 2nd, though it seems like more was made about his move to 2nd base on here than in reality.

 

 

The problem is this isn't the trade that put the Brewers in the situation they're in now. It's really pretty simple. The Brewers have struggled to develop pitchers despite taking virtually every different approach with several different scouts, and the last couple years have been particularly bad.

 

 

But again, I'll still say if you want to put the blame on Melvin for making such a terrible trade, then you need to give him at least equal credit for one of the biggest steals in recent memory(through 100+ games) in the Greinke trade and all that comes along with that. Or the decision to sign Gomez to a VERY team friendly deal?

 

I'm also of the opinion that while the Brewers are at least 3 years away from competing, the talent in the system is underrated. Wily Peralta and Jimmy Nelson could easily pitch atop a rotation while Hellweg could also be a very good pitcher on a 1st division team. We're getting old in spots, but we also have extremely impressive young talent in spots.

 

 

My problem is I think Melvin gets a LOT more criticism than is deserved on here. Outside of this board people are calling for his head because of "his," drafting, not understanding that it's not like the NFL or NBA and the GM's role in the draft is greatly reduced. So again, if you want to lay this on Melvin's feet, it needs to be more than, "he's constantly traded away talent and that's why our farm system is barren right now," and then when it gets pointed out that the talented he traded away for those cy young winning pitchers who pitched us into the playoffs didn't or at least haven't really panned out to much and in the process he got us back a potential GG, .320/.360 25/40 23 year old SS in return for one of those pitchers.

[TigerUppercut]

You make a number of great points, particulary the point about BF.Net'ers loving to create trade markets for our players that most likely don't exist. That's been going on for years with no end in site. It's like every rumor out there is to be taken as absolute truth.

 

Where I can't agree with you is where you defend Melvin, in my opinion, a bit too much. Bruce Seid lies at DM's feet, as does the entire scouting and player development system. Go to one Timber Rattler game and talk with a scout from another team. They will absolutely hammer, and I mean hammer, the non-sensical approach and tinkering we subject our prospects to (i.e. piggybacking pitchers, Coulter position issue, Lopez/Arnett mechanics, etc.). The bashing gets to the point where the light goes on and you get the picture that most MLB scouts regard our development folks are an absolute joke. I've heard scouts say "I'd love to have X player" and "I'd love to have Y player", while citing how they think those players are high ceiling talent. They follow that up with "but the Brewers will screw with him so bad, by the time they're done with him he won't have a chance." Kind of makes you rethink your outlook on the entire organization. I know it did for me.

[Raw Biz]

There's also this nonsensical argument that the Brewers scouting "targeted," big college pitchers with ceilings of that of a 3-4. It's intellectually dishonest. Everyone had Jungman and Bradley as potential 1/2 type pitchers which is why they were 8 and 9 in BA's overall rankings. Of course Fernandez would have been better, but it's real easy to sit here and wait a couple years and say, "see, should have taken him." Bradley at one point was thought of as a potential top 3 pick after his fall league performance the previous year.

 

By everyone I assume you mean scouts and people who analyze the draft. However, there were people on this board who thought Jungmann/Bradley weren't potential 1/2 pitchers at the time. Those scout rankings are not gospel. I had no problem taking 1 of them (though I preferred Barnes/Gray) as a safer pick (I admit I liked Bradley better than Jungmann simply because he was a LHP) but also wanted (and even posted I believe) Guerrieri or Fernandez as the high-risk/high-reward type.

 

I wasn't alone in that line of thinking either. I believe when you have 2 1st round picks like that, at least one of them should be a high-reward type. And you might say that they both were high-reward types but I, and others, didn't believe that was the case. To me, a high-reward type is a HS who has more projection left. With advanced college pitchers, there usually isn't as much room left for projection.

[splitterpfj]

Lohse was claimed on waivers, and the Brewers pulled him back, saying there wasn't a match with the team that claimed him.

 

It shouldn't surprise anyone that Lohse didn't make it through waivers...does anyone know which team claimed him?

[Dollarbill13]

Pure speculation but I wouldn't be surprised if he didnt' make it past the Cubs.

[Point Beer Is Best]

Could have been just about anybody. He would clearly help teams in contention, but could also be appealing to an opportunistic club that would like to get him cheaply (in terms of players for assuming the contract) and then flip him down the line for a better return than what waiver restrictions allow.

[JohnBriggs12]

Melvin might have had a specific team in mind he thought he'd have a match with (Indians?). Obviously whoever claimed him wasn't that team. Any number of teams could have claimed him.

[monty57]

Well, it appears as far as value goes:

 

first round draft pick > Lohse under current contract > 0

 

He still has positive value to at least one team, but not the "equivalent to the first rounder we gave up" that the Brewers said they were asking for.

[danzig6767]

You make a number of great points, particulary the point about BF.Net'ers loving to create trade markets for our players that most likely don't exist. That's been going on for years with no end in site. It's like every rumor out there is to be taken as absolute truth.

 

Where I can't agree with you is where you defend Melvin, in my opinion, a bit too much. Bruce Seid lies at DM's feet, as does the entire scouting and player development system. Go to one Timber Rattler game and talk with a scout from another team. They will absolutely hammer, and I mean hammer, the non-sensical approach and tinkering we subject our prospects to (i.e. piggybacking pitchers, Coulter position issue, Lopez/Arnett mechanics, etc.). The bashing gets to the point where the light goes on and you get the picture that most MLB scouts regard our development folks are an absolute joke. I've heard scouts say "I'd love to have X player" and "I'd love to have Y player", while citing how they think those players are high ceiling talent. They follow that up with "but the Brewers will screw with him so bad, by the time they're done with him he won't have a chance." Kind of makes you rethink your outlook on the entire organization. I know it did for me.

 

I've said it before in other threads, if say the Brewers continue to struggle over the next few years to the point that Melvin ends up getting let go, my money is on the biggest factor ends up being Doug's decision to hire Seid after Zduriencik left.

 

A baseball GM just doesn't have the time to go around scouting countless kids each year who are draft eligible. Because of that, whoever a GM hires to run the amateur scouting department is arguably the most important decision a GM can make, especially for small market teams who simply need cheap higher end talent to thrive.

 

Whiling granting that there are currently plenty of really young players in the system from more recent Seid drafts, so far at least it's hard for me to find reason overall to think Seid was a good hire by Melvin. The Brewers market size and payroll limitations just can't allow for an unproductive director of amateur scouting, along with potentially an ineffective development system.

[LouisEly]

Melvin might have had a specific team in mind he thought he'd have a match with (Indians?). Obviously whoever claimed him wasn't that team. Any number of teams could have claimed him.

Could have been claimed by a team that was looking to block a trade to a competitor, and that team was willing to absorb his salary but had no intention of giving up any talent for him. Could have been claimed by a team that was not in contention this year, but is looking to retool in the offseason and compete next year.

 

What we know now is that whatever is left on his contract is not scaring teams away from him.

[HiAndTight]

Again, I'm done focusing on the micros, because it goes around-and-around, and anything said becomes purely speculation. I am anything but someone wanting "instant gratification." What I've argued for a few years now is the opposite of that. I will gladly give up "instant gratification" for a solid, long-term plan for success in a smaller-market.

 

What the Brewers have done has catered to those seeking "instant gratification." Constantly looking out for "today" at the expense of the future is why our franchise is in shambles. Taking every move made and not made has led us where we are. Not that long ago, we had two players who have put up Hall of Fame numbers in the majors (Fielder and Braun) along with several multiple-time All Stars all coming up around the same time, all playing for league minimum, and a payroll that was rising at an astounding rate. From that, we managed two playoff appearances (no World Series) and are now among the worst franchises in baseball. Was that pre-determined fate, or did Brewer management have something to do with it?

 

So no, I don't want to argue about what may or may not have been a potential outcome had Lohse not been signed. I don't want to argue any move or non-move, as they have all been argued to death. I will just say that it is a summation of everything Brewer management has done (and not done) that has us where we are, and I think that had we taken a different tack, we would probably be in a better situation going forward. I understand that could possibly mean a myriad of things, including potentially not having made the playoffs twice, but that is all hypothetical.

 

The only reality is what has happened and where we are, and I don't like where we are. Right now as a Brewer fan, reality sucks. If any private individual outside of the monopoly that is baseball had run their business the way the Brewers have been run, constantly trading in the future for the present, they would be swallowed up by their better-run competitors. Currently, every other team in the NL Central owns the Brewers, and due to years of bad management/"planning" by the Brewer organization, I don't see that changing for a long time.

 

I hadn't intended to post anything beyond my initial post this morning, so I'll stop my ranting now. I've been saying the same thing for a few years, so if people don't know where I'm coming from by now, they never will. I'm just coming to the point that it's not worth my time caring anymore. If the Brewers want to run their franchise like a rudderless ship, it only matters to me if I let it.

 

 

 

You consistently(among others) claim you don't want to argue WHAT moves led us there, but that nonetheless the Brewers have chosen instant gratification over long term gratification. Then you actually cite Prince Fielder and Braun, two guys on HOF paths. Well, we signed one and tried to not only sign the other, BUT we actually tried then trading him before our 96 win season to look toward the future.

 

And no, the only thing that matters right now is, IN YOUR OPINION that the Brewers have opted for instant gratification over building long term. But you don't want to point to what moves we really made that would support such an argument.

 

I hardly see the Brewers running their franchise like a "rutterless ship," but again, there are so many posters who will take whatever chance they can to re-write history. They chose to cite the Fernandez pick when we had two first rounders and try to argue we "targeted," guys with 3-4 type ceilings. Well, that's just really flat out lying at this point. They certainly omit their disdain for the Nelson selections.

 

It's better to be an active fan and have a fan base that is invested in their team but these constant complaints about the Brewers. -They don't know how to keep their guys healthy(yeah, really limited to Milwaukee). They target low ceiling guys(hardly). They play guys out of position(Coulter). The last one is one I've heard for a long time now. Kid is 19 years old and extremely athletic.

 

NOBODY is happy with the state of the franchise right now, but I don't think anyone could foresee our 3-4-5 hitters missing most of the year, Gallardo becoming a #4.

 

There is nothing easier than sitting back and complaining and revising how we got to this point, but this is a very different looking team if we have Aoki/Segura/Braun/Aram/Hart/Lucroy/Gomez/Weeks in our lineup and the Gallardo we've come to expect backed by Lohse, Peralta, and whomever would have filled out the rotation. I like Gorz and Thornburg personally.

 

And in the meantime we're easily an 80-ish win team and all the toolsy talented guys with big upsides are working their way up.

 

But EVERYONE wants to point to this theory that we've been focused on instant gratification at the expense of the future and then when it comes down to making the argument, nobody wants to.

 

I'll just throw out a couple examples however.

-Lucroy signed for 5 years 11 million dollars. Makes him a ripe target for an extension with perhaps more guaranteed money up front.

-Acquired Segura, a guy who looks to be an All-Star SS for years to come, and one who looks to be a completely legitimate GG candidate in the future despite scouting reports questioning his ability to play Short. Throw in two pitchers who have the chance to be very good high ceiling pitchers and I'll start the preaching here because I hate when we throw out "ceilings," with pitchers....every single organization has probably 10 guys with "ceilings," to be #1 starters. Jimmy Nelson...ceiling is that of a #1. Hellweg? When you throw in the upper 90's and have that heavy grounder like Nelson and Peralta you have the ceiling of an ace. Pena. Pure stuff. And on and on. That there are probably only about 15 guys I'd consider true "aces," accross baseball speaks to the point that it's exceedingly difficult to find, develop and keep those pitchers healthy, but it doesn't make their "ceiling," any lower. 98 with the movement that Peralta has, the slider he CAN throw and the change he's had at certain times this year show without a doubt he has a chance to be an ace..and that's not optomistic as he probably won't end up an ace.....but I wanted to get that out there.

 

 

In any event, the Brewers have made two moves that you can look back on right now and say, "they've hurt our system for the future for short term gain," the Lawrie trade which I always hated and I hated it when it was suggested a full year before the trade took place, and then the Lohse signing, however if he comes back out next year and pitches again like he did this year, I have little doubt we'll be able to recoup at LEAST the talent we would have gotten at #17, except likely further along and we'll have a minor league scouting report.

 

 

Bottom line, the Brewers franchise is doing very poorly right now for a myriad of reasons. We weren't in position to re-sign CC, Prince, Greinke(think that'd change our team a bit), Braun and his moves and because we flat out missed on some very talented arms in the draft, OR because they haven't developed as fast as we'd like.

[JohnBriggs12]

"Bottom line, the Brewers franchise is doing very poorly right now for a myriad of reasons"

 

??? They have had 2 stars emerge this year. They have a winning record since Braun was suspended. The pitching staff has recorded 10 shutouts in the last 41 games and one run or less in 16 of the last 41. The team ERA since the All Star break is 2.97. It's really a more fun team to watch now than they were in April. Gindl, Schafer, Davis, Bianchi, Gennett, Thornburg, Wooten, Peralta and Hand are all contributing, belying the gloom and doom rankings of the Brewer farm system. All but Bianchi from that group were Brewer draft picks.

[monty57]

You consistently(among others) claim you don't want to argue WHAT moves led us there, but that nonetheless the Brewers have chosen instant gratification over long term gratification.

 

Because all the individual moves have been beaten to death, and it gets tiresome. For several years, I've said we're on path to where the team current is, and now we're here, and somehow I'm the one who wants to "re-write history." As we were "opening the window," I said it would hurt us in the future, and was greeted with a chorus of "I don't care." Those who said I was overly pessimistic, or just plain wrong are now mad that I was right. I guess the phrase "truth hurts" is fitting. It's very comparable to people who spend more than they have, laugh at you for saving, and then cry "unfair" when they're going through bankruptcy and you have money. Unfortunately, I had to watch us heading ourselves to bankruptcy, and as long as I cling to Brewer fandom, I have to suffer with everyone else.

 

But, to play along with your desire to beat the dead horse of moves made or not made, just looking at last year, I said we should trade Morgan as soon as we signed Aoki, when he had some value after an exciting 2011. That was laughed at, by people saying we needed Morgan, and Aoki was probably a 5th OF. I said that we were obviously "going for it," but I didn't think we had the horses, so I said we needed to have a quick trigger finger to trade away the guys on the final year of their contract. Had we done this, we could've gotten something of value from Marcum. I strongly believed we should have traded Hart and Ramirez prior to the deadline when both were healthy and productive. The Dodgers were hot after Ramirez, and we probably could have received Eovaldi with LA picking up all of Ramirez's contract. Hart was having a good season and could have brought back a good package in trade.

 

So, just in those few quick moves, we would have a good, young starting pitcher in Eovaldi, a couple of good prospects for Hart and Marcum, and someone with some upside for Morgan. Instead, we're in last place in the division, got nothing for Hart, Morgan or Marcum, and are watching Ramirez sit (untradeable) on the bench collecting a lot of money, and are left wondering if a knee will really heal itself with rest, or if we're going to pay him another $20MM to sit out most of next season.

 

That's just a couple of things I wanted in one season. I have a lot more, but I'm sure I'm living in fantasy land, and Melvin made every possible move he could, and nothing could possibly be any different than it currently is. We're just unlucky and have to accept the fact that the Brewers were fated from the beginning of time to be exactly where they are now. Different goals and/or different management would not have made a difference. Oh yeah, and I should be jumping around doing cartwheels because we lost twice in the playoffs. The same fans who get upset if the Packers don't win the Super Bowl, and call for heads to roll if they miss the playoffs are somehow overjoyed that the Brewers sacrificed their future for one little window of "success" which constitutes one playoff series win.

 

Finally, since we're looking at individual moves. Prince Fielder was not traded because Doug Melvin insisted on two young MLB ready pitchers for him. He was on his final year, so only a playoff hopeful team would trade for him. It seems obvious to me that no playoff hopeful team could possibly give up two members of their rotation for a one-year rental at first. Had Melvin not demanded an unreasonable return for Fielder, then I'm sure he could have been traded for some very good young talent... probably a couple of guys that right now would be some of the best players on our roster. They just wouldn't have been able to step in immediately (instant gratification), which was unacceptable to Brewer management, so we instead ruined a good long-term plan for one more playoff appearance. Had we traded him, we probably wouldn't have made the playoffs in 2011 (no one knows for sure), but we would very likely be in much better shape now.

 

But again, looking at these individual moves, which you apparently want to do, is "revisionist history" which you say you hate. Therefore, I just like saying that it is the aggregate moves made and not made by Brewer management that have us in the current situation. Every other franchise in the division has more talent than the Brewers. It wasn't fated to be this way, it is the natural outcome of foregoing the future to win in the present.

[brewcrewdue80]

Finally, since we're looking at individual moves. Prince Fielder was not traded because Doug Melvin insisted on two young MLB ready pitchers for him. He was on his final year, so only a playoff hopeful team would trade for him. It seems obvious to me that no playoff hopeful team could possibly give up two members of their rotation for a one-year rental at first. Had Melvin not demanded an unreasonable return for Fielder, then I'm sure he could have been traded for some very good young talent... probably a couple of guys that right now would be some of the best players on our roster. They just wouldn't have been able to step in immediately (instant gratification), which was unacceptable to Brewer management, so we instead ruined a good long-term plan for one more playoff appearance. Had we traded him, we probably wouldn't have made the playoffs in 2011 (no one knows for sure), but we would very likely be in much better shape now.

 

But again, looking at these individual moves, which you apparently want to do, is "revisionist history" which you say you hate. Therefore, I just like saying that it is the aggregate moves made and not made by Brewer management that have us in the current situation. Every other franchise in the division has more talent than the Brewers. It wasn't fated to be this way, it is the natural outcome of foregoing the future to win in the present.

 

Revisiting that Fielder move. Think about the dominoes that fell by not trading Fielder. Let's go ahead and say we get 2 Talented but in A/AA ball players in 2011 for Fielder. One would think that Lawrie isn't traded for Marcum. So that then means Aramis isn't needed to play 3b after trading away Mcgehee. So then that's 3/36mil available for 2012-2014. Lawrie at 3b. Those 2 players in the Fielder trade at least 1 should be making an impact on this team today. We'll play the prospects don't work out card on the other 1.

 

I will say that FA pickings for 2011 were next to none, slim for Pitching. And I've read that Grienke isn't moved here because Marcum wasn't here to be paired with. But no Grienke means Odorizzi, Escobar, and Cain still remain on the team. I get no Segura with no Grienke. But think about Braun,Gomez,Cain in OF. Hart at 1b Weeks 2b Escobar SS Lawrie 3b Lucroy C for a lineup. Gallardo,Peralta,Odorizzi and that mystery Pitcher in the Fielder trade. As well as still having the 36mil used on Aramis at our disposal. I'm sure a trade would have happened then 2011-2012 deadline/offseason maybe getting away from any of Hart,Gomez,Cain,Escobar, and/or Lawrie. 2011 wouldn't have happened, but 2013 also wouldn't have happened. Again, depending on that Pitcher acquired in trading Fielder making to the team by this season, then Lohse isn't signed, 17th pick remains and that's another 33mil of funds available.

 

http://network.yardbarker.com/mlb/article_external/mlb_trade_rumors_eight_prince_fielder_deals_that_make_sense_for_both_sides/3803147

Suggested trade ideas for Fielder.

See, some stink. Others? The Nationals' Jordan Zimmerman would have been a perfect deal. Homegrown in WI. Wade Miley,Gio Gonzalez. But of course that is a website's suggestion and maybe Melvin was asking for these guys and was scoffed at.

 

Aside from a Loney/Broxton deal...Thank God that didn't happen! I can't really find any concrete trade rumor with actually return to Milw included. Bal and ChiSox were rumored in on Prince. Maybe Gavin Floyd. Jake Arrieta/Zach Britton but look how those guys have fared?

 

The problem revisiting this is that with Fielder moved. There's no Marcum/Grienke trades and 2011 obviously doesn't happen. All the angst in Melvin's moves begin with not moving Fielder in that offseason. Actually maybe it starts by not trading away Hart in 2010's deadline and instead extending him.

I'm torn on this argument because when it happened, I was excited about the 2011 team and then they actually went on and won the division. I wasn't caught up in what it meant beyond 2012. The idea of having a World Series type team absolutely left me with blinders on to the Monty outcome. What hurts in this is quite frankly the luck...or lack there of proving your opinion right Monty with quite frankly every single possible trade worthy player going in to 2012/2013 pretty much breaking down/performing to a level nobody wants. Grienke and KRod part Duex are the only exceptions. Morgan,Wolf,Axford,Marcum,Hart,ARam,Gallardo,Weeks, any number of other RPs. All of them heading in to the start of each Year you would have thought were tradeable at the deadline for Something. Just Bad Luck.

[monty57]

The closest WI-based comparison I can make to the decision on Prince / Hart in 2010 is the decision on Brett Favre for the Packers. The Packers had a good team, and Favre lobbied Thompson to upgrade the talent to shoot for the Super Bowl. Thompson refused to scrap his plan for building the team, Favre did his retire/un-retire/retire fiasco and Thompson moved ahead without him. Many thought that would destroy the team, but instead the team won a Super Bowl in the near future and remains one of the top teams in the league, expected to make a good run at winning their division every year.

 

What would have happened if Thompson had scrapped his plan and signed the talent Favre wanted? No one knows, but the Packers likely would have been better in that one year. However, they would've been much worse after that season. Similarly, no one knows what would have happened to the Brewers had they decided to trade Fielder (and others?) in 2010. Everything is speculation. My belief is that they would have been worse in 2011, but would be much better for the long haul. We'll never know. All we know is that we won a division title, won one playoff series, and now have the team we have with the guaranteed financial obligations attached to it. I'd trade in the "one really good year" plan of Melvin for the "continually good team" plan of Thompson. Many Brewer fans would not.

[Bnowell4evr]

The only legitimate offer for Fielder that I can remember revolved around Daniel Hudson and hes recovering from his 2nd Tommy John surgery. Some how I don't think that trade would have put us in a better position this season...

 

And can we please stop with the Thompson to Melvin comparisons? People have been trying to make that same comparison for years and its just ridiculous! First off the NFL gets "instant gratification" with their draft picks meanwhile it takes YEARS to develop in baseball. Second and most importantly Green Bay is playing with something called a "salary cap" and there's no such thing in baseball. Do you honestly think we would have lost both Greinke and Fielder if there was a cap in place? Do you think GB keeps all their core players if the Dallas Yankees or the Washington Redsox came calling with blank checks? You continue to say how the Brewers don't have a plan and all this but what you fail to mention is how injuries/ineffectiveness/scandal devastated this team. What would you say if Rodgers went down with an injury or got suspended for nearly half of the season? Do you think GB comes close to winning the division if we were left with Graham Harrell or Vince Young? Would you blame TT for "not having a plan" or would you give him a pass?

 

Like you I'm frustrated with this season but its because I felt we were so close to having a team that would be right in the hunt if Melvin didn't sleep all offseason until the last week of spring training. This team needed to replace 2 starters (Greinke and Marcum) but only signed 1 because they were doped into believing a couple mid and late season call ups were the real deal. Well I knew Fiers was a fluke and never trusted Rogers, Narveson, Estrada and Fiers as anything more than a #5 starter with their lack of velocity or command. I hate to play the 20 20 hindsight game but I know I'm not the only one around here who campaigned for Francisco Liriano (talking about you JohnBriggs) because of his combination of stuff and switching leagues. Melvin then failed all of us as fans when he didn't sign a 1B replacement when both Hart and Gamel went down with injuries. I know I'm not the only one again who called for Melvin to trade recently DFA'd Mike Carp but instead he decided to go with a couple of RH hitting SS's with terrible OBP's for even SS standards as his double RH hitting platoon at 1B.

 

I'm not saying those two moves would have put us in the playoffs since both Gallardo pitched like his name was Jeff Suppan and Wily Peralta's started the year out with a sophomore slump but my attitude going into the season would have been a lot different.

[HiAndTight]

The only legitimate offer for Fielder that I can remember revolved around Daniel Hudson and hes recovering from his 2nd Tommy John surgery. Some how I don't think that trade would have put us in a better position this season...

 

And can we please stop with the Thompson to Melvin comparisons? People have been trying to make that same comparison for years and its just ridiculous! First off the NFL gets "instant gratification" with their draft picks meanwhile it takes YEARS to develop in baseball. Second and most importantly Green Bay is playing with something called a "salary cap" and there's no such thing in baseball. Do you honestly think we would have lost both Greinke and Fielder if there was a cap in place? Do you think GB keeps all their core players if the Dallas Yankees or the Washington Redsox came calling with blank checks? You continue to say how the Brewers don't have a plan and all this but what you fail to mention is how injuries/ineffectiveness/scandal devastated this team. What would you say if Rodgers went down with an injury or got suspended for nearly half of the season? Do you think GB comes close to winning the division if we were left with Graham Harrell or Vince Young? Would you blame TT for "not having a plan" or would you give him a pass?

 

Like you I'm frustrated with this season but its because I felt we were so close to having a team that would be right in the hunt if Melvin didn't sleep all offseason until the last week of spring training. This team needed to replace 2 starters (Greinke and Marcum) but only signed 1 because they were doped into believing a couple mid and late season call ups were the real deal. Well I knew Fiers was a fluke and never trusted Rogers, Narveson, Estrada and Fiers as anything more than a #5 starter with their lack of velocity or command. I hate to play the 20 20 hindsight game but I know I'm not the only one around here who campaigned for Francisco Liriano (talking about you JohnBriggs) because of his combination of stuff and switching leagues. Melvin then failed all of us as fans when he didn't sign a 1B replacement when both Hart and Gamel went down with injuries. I know I'm not the only one again who called for Melvin to trade recently DFA'd Mike Carp but instead he decided to go with a couple of RH hitting SS's with terrible OBP's for even SS standards as his double RH hitting platoon at 1B.

 

I'm not saying those two moves would have put us in the playoffs since both Gallardo pitched like his name was Jeff Suppan and Wily Peralta's started the year out with a sophomore slump but my attitude going into the season would have been a lot different.

 

 

I think the problem is we all had higher expectations for what we'd get for Prince, and when it ended up being Hudson as the main piece, I think that kinda blows up the bufferfly effect that would have had us holding onto Lawrie(a trade that I despised with or without Greinke) as well as Cain, Escobar, Odorizzi, etc...

 

I don't know how much blame I can put on Melvin however for the 1st base position after Hart, Gamel and Green went down for the year, or not signing Liriano after coming off a year in which he had a 5.43 ERA and a nearly 1.50 Whip. He's certainly the type of guy I'd like to see the Brewers look at, guys who have a big arm and some modicum of success in his past, but you're right, this is all 20/20 hindsight. Liriano wasn't exactly a prized FA, and Mike Carp is the definition of 20/20 hindsight. He'd been a AAAA type player who had a productive 230 AB's this year.