brewers pitchers just don't walk anybody

[djoctagone]

with a nod to this thread, the brewers pitching staff is tied for second fewest walks issued in the major leagues.

 

yes, the pitching has been less than desirable to start the season, but at least the team's not being killed by bases on balls.

[pogokat]

The Brewers pitchers has great peripherals last year too...

 

gotta hope that means they come around...

[Ennder]

The Brewers team has a heavy over the top pitching philosophy. Usually this leads to high K, decent BB, high HR. Seems to be about the results we get. On the flip side it is harder on your arm so I don't expect them to age well. Gallardo has some of the worst mechanics in baseball so I really don't expect him to age well which is why I'm hoping Peralta really steps up because I don't want us to go long term with Gallardo.

[chadomac]

They're making up for it by giving up a whole lotta hits though!

[thebruce44]

The Brewers team has a heavy over the top pitching philosophy. Usually this leads to high K, decent BB, high HR. Seems to be about the results we get. On the flip side it is harder on your arm so I don't expect them to age well. Gallardo has some of the worst mechanics in baseball so I really don't expect him to age well which is why I'm hoping Peralta really steps up because I don't want us to go long term with Gallardo.

 

Wait, what?

[rluzinski]

And what is a "heavy over the top pitching philosophy"? Do you just mean that they have a very rigid, unorthodox pitching philosophy that they force pitchers to follow? What is it exactly and where is this documented? Is it just something along the lines of "get ahead of the count with fastballs early" and "pound the strike zone"? The numbers should bear some of that out if it is indeed the case.

 

For instance, if the Brewers have a philosophy that that pitchers should pound the strike zone in general, that isn't reflected in the 2012 numbers, as the Brewers strike percentage was right at league average. The Brewers actually started with less first pitch strikes than average in 2012:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2013-pitches-pitching.shtml#teams_pitches_pitching::6

 

Now, perhaps that is because the 2012 pitching staff simply didn't have the skills to follow whatever philosophy the Brewers may or may not have. If that is the case, though, we can't just attribute their HR and walk rates to a philosophy so easily.

 

Basically, I am asking for some evidence that:

 

A. There is a "heavy over the top pitching philosophy"

B. It's being followed by the Brewer pitching staff

C. It has the result of adversely affecting certain pitching stats

D. We should also expect a higher rate of injury

[Ennder]

They throw the ball with an over the top motion instead of using a 3/4 arm slot. They teach that in the minors. It gives the ball more downward movement and makes it look faster than it is. When you miss while pitching over the top it tends to go low or high instead of inside or outside. If you miss high you give up extra base hits, if you miss low you get a lot of swings and misses still. Warren Spahn was an over the top pitcher and he threw 5000 innings so it isn't a kiss of death for injuries or anything. It is just harder on your shoulder than throwing 3/4 or sidearm. In Gallardo's case his balance and posture are poor as well which is probably going to put him at risk for back injuries as well.

 

Yes Gallardo's mechanics are awful. They weren't in the minors but they either adjusted them on purpose or he did it when he hurt his knee.

 

http://disciplesofuecker.com/rounding-the-bases-the-rotation/8646

http://thecleanupspot.wordpress.com/tag/yovani-gallardo/

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=20037

 

 

 

Paul Sporer who does a great starting pitcher guide gave Gallardo one of the few Fs for mechanics in the guide.

 

Gallardo earned a barrel-scraping score of 20 when I covered posture for the Making the Grade series, and one would think that a pitcher with his resume would make up for the deficiency with other aspects of his mechanics. But his delivery is a mess. The balance is shaky from the beginning, he constantly battles to repeat his timing, and the net result is a very shallow release point. When doing the mechanical report cards for the 2013 Starting Pitcher Guide, only one pitcher received an overall grade of an “F”—and you're looking right at him.

[thebruce44]

Wow, this is the first I've heard of this. I had always heard how effortless his delivery is.

[xisxisxis]

Yes Gallardo's mechanics are awful. They weren't in the minors but they either adjusted them on purpose or he did it when he hurt his knee.

 

http://disciplesofuecker.com/rounding-t ... ation/8646

http://thecleanupspot.wordpress.com/tag ... -gallardo/

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... leid=20037

 

 

I read the first article at disciplesofuecker. They don't do any mechanics analysis, they are analyzing the starting rotation and their results. They quote Paul Sporer's article and say basically that the reason Yo has so many problems must be because of his mechanics. I have published over 100 peer reviewed articles. If you reference a paper that references another paper that presents a hypothesis, you do not have independent articles that both present the hypothesis or support it. If you are trying to publish a paper it would get dinged or rejected, if you were trying to get a grant, you just got a rejection. While an internet message board doesn't have the same criteria, As a scientist I have huge problems with the approaches so many sabermetricians take when performing analysis because of this type of "analysis" and because of a complete lack of understanding of the scientific method (a complete analysis of the issues would require a separate lengthy discussion). Bottom line is that I can't take seriously your assertion when you try to present 3 articles that support the poor mechanics of Gallardo when the first one isn't even an analysis of mechanics. I haven't read the rest of the articles because I don't have time.

[Ennder]

Well I wasn't using a scientific approach or trying to sway anyone's opinion so none of that is meaningful. I was just trying to give him links to multiple people talking about his mechanics. To find those articles I did a simple google search. Gallardo's mechanics changed over the years and my guess would be it was an adjustment to the knee injury. I listen to a lot of baseball podcasts and it is a point of discussion that comes up on a regular basis when talking about pitching.

 

Here is another link that sites the actual changed release point.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/fanblogs/120836644.html

 

Unfortunately the graphs won't show up for me.

 

I mean you don't want to believe me that is fine, pitching mechanics are kind of a tricky subject. I didn't realize people thought he had good mechanics because I never hear anything positive about them.

[TheCrew07]

Throwing the ball over the top isn't indicative of more stress on the elbow, that's a myth that's been perpetuated for some time, even Bill was yapping about it during some broadcasts last year. It the same as the "screwball wrecks pitchers arms" myth that's been around since before I was born. Why is it a myth? Because every QB in football throws a screwball on every single throw, and a football is much heavier which would put greater stress on the arm, and yet how many QBs ever need TJ surgery?

 

The truth is that the farther the arm gets away from the 12 o'clock position the more the muscles have to compensate and adjust for left to right accuracy. The other day I was talking about pitchers who fall off hard towards first base having the momentum of their torso, shoulder, and elbow all working in different planes... In addition to being difficult to repeat and harder to control the ball that type of delivery creates unnecessary stress on both the shoulder and the elbow because nothing in the body is working together. Similarly pitchers that wheel the ball down to 6 o'clock as they start their pitching motion create unnecessary stress because the wheel effect of going from 6 to 9 to 12 gets the arm out of sync with the torso causing the pitcher to "drag" their arm behind the rest of their body (the dreaded inverted W).

 

The 3/4 arm slot provides the best 2 plane movement, but it's also the hardest to control and hardest on the joints. Stay with me here: Think of the best shooters in basketball, they all start by bringing their shooting arm to near the midpoint of their body, the shooting arm aligned vertically elbow to wrist, then in one smooth motion they extend and follow through finishing the motion by flipping wrist and fingers and downward at the basket (I'm leaving the lower half out). This shooting motion virtually eliminates any horizontal adjustments the muscles need to make and allows the shooter to focus purely on up/down (arc) and distance. Players that bring the ball over the top of their head, leave the ball out to one side of their body, leave their shooting elbow out to a side at a 45 degree angle, or flip their wrist/fingers to a side when finishing the follow through (or any combination there of) not only increase the degree of difficultly by adding the horizontal element back into the shot, but likely are putting poor rotation on the ball as well which makes it less likely to catch the rim and find it's way into the basket. The best basketball shot is a mechanically simple and easy to repeat, much like the best pitching motion.

 

The problem with many pitchers and a high arm slot is that they don't finish through properly which leads to them "banging the joint" for a lack of a better term... (for those of you that have done P90x yes I just used a Tony Horton line and feel dirty) ...like a Karate chop motion that abruptly halts. Pitching from a 3/4 arm slot it's just natural that the arm flows down and across your midline to the other side or you body so there isn't much if any unnecessary stress placed on the arm at the end of the pitching motion. The follow through is just as important as the rest of the pitching motion not only because done improperly it adds unnecessary stress on the elbow, but also because that's where spin is applied to the ball. Last I heard about this studies had shown that the average MLB fastball only makes a little more than 2 full revolutions before reaching home plate (I would have guessed a much higher number) Each extra 1/4 turn of the ball adds so many inches of movement, and likewise coming under that number reduces movement, which is why it is so easy to hang a pitch. I don't remember the exact numbers because this was a conversation over beer with a former MLB pitcher some years ago, his organization had brought in some physics professor to explain the mechanics of the ball in flight to their pitchers, fascinating stuff... Anyway the quick version is that the more revolutions you get before it reaches home plate, the better movement you will get, the pitchers with the best movement only approach 3 full revolutions.

 

I don't have a good reason why there is no consensus on baseball pitching mechanics, unlike QB mechanics in football which are very well defined, though they should be essentially the same with some major differences in the start and finish. There are some things that everyone agrees stink, but for the most part there is no consensus on what's best. I would guess it comes down to trying to get the best movement possible and the fact that it's easier to get 2 plane break for your pitches from that 3/4 arm slot. Speaking from personal experience, for most of my life I had arm problems and I learned to throw and pitch from a 3/4 arm slot. My dad played college baseball at 3B and he taught us how to throw the way infielders throw working to get the ball moving towards 1B as quick as possible. I starting coaching QBs in 1999, became interesting in throwing mechanics by 2001, started studying pitching mechanics/training in 2003 when I found Brewerfan, and by 2009-2010 I was throwing pain free for the first time in my life. Every time I threw with my QBs, receivers, or played catch with my pitchers (who also were my QBs) I worked on the start of my motion, moving my arm slot higher, and the follow through. Not only was I pain free for the first time in my life, my accuracy was spot on, and the rotation on my ball regardless of type was much better. I talked about this stuff quite a bit on the minor league forum, stealing concepts from both sides, like for example making my QBs throw long toss with a football to build arm strength which is an idea stolen directly from building pitching arm strength.

 

Every QB I've worked with was pretty much in the same situation I was because as I said most were also pitchers on the baseball team, throwing from a 3/4 arm slot, with tendonitis pain in the elbow most of football and baseball season. However by the time they were seniors most of those kids were throwing pain free (with 1 notable exception). There are still workload concerns, throwing properly doesn't eliminate abuse issues, but I do know that moving to a higher arm slot and getting the body, shoulder, elbow, and wrist all working in one plane towards the target with a smooth follow through increases velocity and accuracy while eliminating unnecessary stress on the shoulder and elbow. Recently I've started working with the pitchers (I don't have time to coach 2 sports full time) and have witnessed similar improvements, though for whatever reason the same kids aren't as coachable on the baseball side.

 

I can't tell you the number of times I've witnessed kids whom were extremely coachable in football resist coaching in baseball, "but coach that's how I've always hit" or "but coach that's how I've always thrown" and it doesn't matter how bad the results are, for some reason kids are much more resistant to any change when it comes to baseball. A couple of years ago there was even a parent yelling to his kid on the mound, "Just do the opposite of what they are telling you to do!" as his son was throwing like 55 MPH and walking the bases loaded in game 2 of a double header. Unfortunately the coaches were out of pitchers because of 2 doubleheaders earlier in the week and a game the day before (plus HS kids in WI have a weekly inning limit) so they couldn't make a change but it was easily my most embarrassing moment as a spectator at a baseball game, and sadly there are more stories like that. I wish had video to post, I could blur out the face to show how horrible his mechanics were, but that was the way his dad and had taught him to pitch so that's how he was going to throw come hell or high water.

[rluzinski]

As a scientist I have huge problems with the approaches so many sabermetricians take when performing analysis because of this type of "analysis" and because of a complete lack of understanding of the scientific method (a complete analysis of the issues would require a separate lengthy discussion).

 

For the record, the guys doing pure statistical analysis are a usually a different group of people from the self described pitching biomechanics experts that have cropped up all over the place in recent years. Who is Paul Sporer anyway? Why should we care what a former sotware salesman has to say about the pitching mechanics of Yovani anyway?

 

I don't mean to suggest that sabermetricians never abuse the scientific method (they do). I just find a lot of this biomechanics stuff almost pseudoscience. Unless they have some kind of medical background, it's hard to take much of what they say very seriously (in terms of injury risk at least).

[sveumrules]

I've never really thought Yo's mechanics were too bad personally. Any injuries he has had have been of the freak variety and I don't recall any arm issues even going back to the minors. If anything concerns me in terms of likelihood of future injury it's the pure number of pitches thrown. Between 2009 and 2012 Yo was 12th in MLB in total pitches thrown at 13,346.

 

A couple other interesting things I came across looking this up are that over that same time span Verlander has thrown exactly 1,000 more pitches than King Felix and CC Sabathia threw exactly 3,587 pitches in both 2009 and 2010.

[Ennder]

Paul Sporer is just a fantasy baseball guy but the guy he talks to for pitching mechanics for his guide is Doug Thorburn who is a former scout and coach who has written books on pitcher mechanics and their effects on pitchers arms.

 

I think the over the top and pitching injuries depends on how your arm gets up in the air and the motion used in the elbow. That part is over my head though. Kind of like how the inverted W isn't a big deal if you have good balance but when you are say Strasburg and your mechanics and balance fall apart when your arm is tired it is a big time sign of future injury.

[djoctagone]

no walks issued last night. brewers lead the national league in fewest walks issued.

[mothershipconnection]

I just find a lot of this biomechanics stuff almost pseudoscience.

 

Agreed. Any time someone says they've uncovered the secrets "they" in the establishment can't understand or won't admit, you're looking at a quack until they back it up with peer-reviewed publications in decent journals. Note: I know legit biomechanics research exists, but where the rubber meets the road, it seems the amateurs are taking over. Virtually all attempts people make at sports psychology with crap regarding eyes of the tiger and defeatist attitudes also fit this mold. There's actually a giant body of well-controlled behavioral research they could reference, but they don't.

[Thurston Fluff]

Ennder Melvin did a study of pitcher mechanics to reveal what mechanics/body type do best injury wise. When they hired Peterson as the pitching coach it was because he was already on board with the results he discovered. Wouldn't that lead one to believe if they are promoting over the top pitching it is because it is less stressful on the arm? If was after Melvin started to follow that philosophy that the Brewers started to have more success with developing pitchers.

[Ennder]

My guess is they did a study on performance vs injury risk and found it to improve performance more than increasing injury risk. I didn't mean to focus on the injury risk part at all though which seems to be what people are bringing up more. I'm just saying that the way they team pitching tends to cut down on walks a little bit and increase strike outs but the cost is going to be more HR. That seems to be showing in the results as well as in the speculation about what over the top pitching means.

[DHonks]

When the Brewers contracted with Peterson's firm before hiring Peterson, an evaluation was done on Gallardo and deemed his mechanics to be perfect. They said there was no excess stress on the body at any point.

 

I believe that was brewers.com or jsonline that reported that years ago.

[Ennder]

When the Brewers contracted with Peterson's firm before hiring Peterson, an evaluation was done on Gallardo and deemed his mechanics to be perfect. They said there was no excess stress on the body at any point.

 

I believe that was brewers.com or jsonline that reported that years ago.

 

Years ago sure but his mechanics have changed since his 2 injuries.

[brewcrewdue80]

I hope this thread doesn't jinx our Pitchers!

 

I'm going to think that after last season and the Walk fest we witnessed from our relievers the start we're seeing thus far seems amazing and refreshing.

I don't care about the mechanics side and our assumption it leads to less Walks,more Ks and more HRs.

 

How about a direct correlation to the transferring within the batters in the League K'ing more, less BA, but with higher HRs? I remember the days of having Jose Hernandez and the 180ks threshold he approached being such a huge deal. Now? seems like every team has their own Jose Hernandez in their lineup.

 

Oddly, something yesterday's game I paid attention to in the box score was that we threw less pitches than the Cubs' Pitchers. For us Walking less players whenever I look at the box score, it seems like it's 155pitches for Brewers 110 for our opponent...roughly just saying. I mean nothing like jumping on Jeff Samardija?sp for 5 runs in 5innings was it? and he not having any problem getting through 2 more innings. Yet if that occured for us I cant help but imagine the Brewers pitcher being lucky to go 5 having accumulated 95-105pitches to do so.

 

And to me it's teams like the Brewers who are filled with 1st pitch attackers vs. pitch takers that result in the lower walks.

And when you look around the NL, how many true stud players are there that makes a pitching shake in their shoes currently? Players you just can't pitch to? Pujols is gone, Bonds,Sosa,McGuire are long gone. We have Braun thankfully. I can only think of Troy Tulowitzki when healthy and Joey Votto. And Votto, is losing some of his edge by not hitting for power. Bryce Harper I feel will take over soon but still think he's going to be attacked when pitched to. You take other top notch players and they are ones with 160+ks. You're just as likely to strike them out as they may get a hit. It's a different era right now with Pitching because hitters are allowed to strikeout more than they used to and try to work through the slumps that comes with striking out too much. And hitters just aren't HOF rambant as they were 10years ago.

 

I expect our trend to continue with less walks not fully on ability of the pitchers but the lack of ability on hitters.

[tigerbrew]

brewers pitchers just don't walk anybody, and that's the way I like it!

[RightFieldCoder]

Only the Twins have walked fewer batters than the Brewers (38-41). But also take into account games they haven't played. They have only pitched 141 innings to our 163.

[Ennder]

How about a direct correlation to the transferring within the batters in the League K'ing more, less BA, but with higher HRs? I remember the days of having Jose Hernandez and the 180ks threshold he approached being such a huge deal. Now? seems like every team has their own Jose Hernandez in their lineup.

 

Yeah that is definitely true. I saw a stat the other day that 1/3 of all PA result in K, BB or HR now. So only 2 out of 3 PA result in a fielded ball which is devaluing fielding.

[DHonks]

what was his second injury? I only remember the ACL