Gallardo arrested for OWI - Blood level nearly three times limit at .22

[AZBrewCrew]

Roenicke talks about Gallardo's incident and Nick Adenhart's accident. I had completely forgot about that connection until this article. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130416&content_id=44952680&notebook_id=45013204&vkey=notebook_mil&c_id=mil#44952800

[JackNicholson1974]

I think we can all agree this was a bad decision on Yo's part.

 

What surprises me though are the number of people who believe drinking to a .22 is normal. It really isnt. 12 to 16 drinks in a day is too many. It's the definition of binge drinking and it is imbedded into the culture of this State so deeply that we have people arguing that some people are "fine" at a .22 or even a .40, which by the way, from a Clemson University website: BAC .40 percent to .50 percent You are probably in a coma. The nerve centers controlling your heartbeat and respiration are slowing down, and it’s a miracle if you survive.

 

Someone said that if .22 is a problem drinker than 50% of college students have drinking problems. Yes, yes they do. Some of those people will grow up and a grow out of it and become productive members of society. Some will be lifelong drunks and some will beat it with treatment. But yes, at the moment they do have a problem.

 

I hope Yo gets sober and he has a great year after this.

 

Wow, I must be an incredibly functional alcoholic to be 31 and still drink 12+ beers a day 10 or so times a year. In fact, I guess all my friends are too. Hmm, and this is a group made up of lawyers, engineers, and a guy currently getting his doctorate. Wonder how we still manage to overcome and be productive members of society Sunday-Friday.

 

Or maybe your idea of what other people should and shouldn't do if they aren't endangering anyone else is wrong.

 

I really dont care if you or anyone else drinks to excess, as long as you dont get behind the wheel and endanger others lives. IMO the first step to not Drunk Driving is to not drink past an .08, a lot of drunks dont plan on driving home, but judgement goes down, inhibitions go down and people tend to do things they wouldnt do sober. If that's not you or your friends, that awesome, but for most people that isnt the case, and its a problem.

[StearnsFTW]

I think we can all agree this was a bad decision on Yo's part.

 

What surprises me though are the number of people who believe drinking to a .22 is normal. It really isnt. 12 to 16 drinks in a day is too many. It's the definition of binge drinking and it is imbedded into the culture of this State so deeply that we have people arguing that some people are "fine" at a .22 or even a .40, which by the way, from a Clemson University website: BAC .40 percent to .50 percent You are probably in a coma. The nerve centers controlling your heartbeat and respiration are slowing down, and it’s a miracle if you survive.

 

Someone said that if .22 is a problem drinker than 50% of college students have drinking problems. Yes, yes they do. Some of those people will grow up and a grow out of it and become productive members of society. Some will be lifelong drunks and some will beat it with treatment. But yes, at the moment they do have a problem.

 

I hope Yo gets sober and he has a great year after this.

 

I think we basically agree on everything except the whole ".22 is a problem part". The rest of your statement is what I was getting at. If it's such a problem how do 90% (or whatever # you want to use, certainly a majority) of those college kids overcome it so easily? That's my only question.

 

Yo did a very, very stupid thing. I sincerely hope it is not indicative of an overriding problem. And I'm very aware that it could be.

[homer]

ANyone can over-imbibe at some point in their life. That does not make them an alcoholic. Can we move past that please?

[homer]

homer, I would think 41 would be much faster. No rural neighborhoods. It's a pain to get from State Street in that area to 94

 

It's probably a little bit longer in terms of time and probably two miles longer. I know that area like the back of my hand. It's a straight shot up 68th to 94 through a nice neighborhood and there was no one on the road at that time of night. Of course, if you have a .22 you aren't thinking about these things.

 

My guess is that he would leave Miller Park and take 41 to 68th in order to get to Leff's and he just took the route he was familiar with. No biggie.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Sure there are tons of fans that get intoxicated at Miller Park during the course of a game...most of them get drunk in the parking lot tailgating, then those that may actually need to drive have a 3.5 hour game to sober up during. People that plan on leaving intoxicated typically have a ride who intended on being sober to drive home. Groups of people have a bus driver to take them home. I think in this day and age with all the info put out publicly about just how reckless and stupid driving drunk is, people going to a Brewers game at least have a plan for how they're getting home if alchohol is going to be heavily involved. People can still enjoy a few beers during a 4-6 hour event and be sober enough to drive. It's not like there's tons of people showing up alone that plan on getting hammered for 9 innings before driving themselves home.

 

Yo was caught for the first time, but the odds of it being the first time he's driven drunk are about as good as winning the Powerball - the person who called him in said he was going 40 in a 55 and changing lanes randomly at 2am...to me that's a good reason to contact authorities, and it has nothing to do with what type of car he was driving.

 

Might seem like nanny state, but I don't think we're too far off from sports leagues starting to screen fans who are driving off their parking lots after games, or even making the blow-in breathalizer device standard in vehicles throughout America in order for them to start.

 

Getting drunk and driving drunk are too totally different things in my opinion. I don't care what a person wants to do for enjoyment on any given day/night, even if it means getting themselves hammered from time to time. I've done just that myself plenty of times during college and occasionally with friends. That's their own choice and it doesn't affect anyone but themselves and the friends who need to take care of them. Getting behind the wheel drunk puts others needlessly at risk of injury or death, and it's stupid because of how many other options there are for people in this day and age - regardless of where they are.

[Patrick425]

I don't care what a person wants to do for enjoyment on any given day/night, even if it means getting themselves hammered from time to time. That's their own choice and it doesn't affect anyone but themselves and the friends who need to take care of them.

 

Well, unless you have to sit near them at a sporting event (or any other event that serves alcohol). Unless you are sitting in the family section (which many stadiums/arenas do not have and the ones that have them only have 2 or 3 areas) it's basically a gamble taking your family to a game and risking sitting next to someone or a group of people who feel the need to get overly drunk and obnoxious.

[thebruce44]

I think we can all agree this was a bad decision on Yo's part.

 

What surprises me though are the number of people who believe drinking to a .22 is normal. It really isnt. 12 to 16 drinks in a day is too many. It's the definition of binge drinking and it is imbedded into the culture of this State so deeply that we have people arguing that some people are "fine" at a .22 or even a .40, which by the way, from a Clemson University website: BAC .40 percent to .50 percent You are probably in a coma. The nerve centers controlling your heartbeat and respiration are slowing down, and it’s a miracle if you survive.

 

Someone said that if .22 is a problem drinker than 50% of college students have drinking problems. Yes, yes they do. Some of those people will grow up and a grow out of it and become productive members of society. Some will be lifelong drunks and some will beat it with treatment. But yes, at the moment they do have a problem.

 

I hope Yo gets sober and he has a great year after this.

 

Wow, I must be an incredibly functional alcoholic to be 31 and still drink 12+ beers a day 10 or so times a year. In fact, I guess all my friends are too. Hmm, and this is a group made up of lawyers, engineers, and a guy currently getting his doctorate. Wonder how we still manage to overcome and be productive members of society Sunday-Friday.

 

Or maybe your idea of what other people should and shouldn't do if they aren't endangering anyone else is wrong.

 

I really dont care if you or anyone else drinks to excess, as long as you dont get behind the wheel and endanger others lives. IMO the first step to not Drunk Driving is to not drink past an .08, a lot of drunks dont plan on driving home, but judgement goes down, inhibitions go down and people tend to do things they wouldnt do sober. If that's not you or your friends, that awesome, but for most people that isnt the case, and its a problem.

 

So you do or you don't think people who occasionally consume more than 12 beers in a day or who occasionally hit .22 have a drinking problem, or are drunks and not capable of being productive members of society? It sure seems like you have a problem with me and my friends, unless you don't care if people offer nothing to society.

 

And hows this for your sweeping generalizations. When me and my friends drink none of us even have access to cars. We're in the city of Chicago. I'm one of the few people who has a car, but I don't even have car keys when I drink. So I would say the first step to not Drunk Driving besides not drinking would be to not be capable of driving.

[owbc]

Having lived in many different parts of the country, it seems attitudes towards heavy drinking are far different in Wisconsin than other parts of the country. It certainly seems evident to me from reading this thread. In many places .22 would be considered a problem...in Wisconsin it's considered a weekend. Age, having lost people I knew to DD and moving out of the state have certainly changed my perspective on the matter.

 

Absolutely. Wisconsin is #1 in the nation in binge drinking. There are people who do it everywhere, but it is much more rare to see people drinking 7-8+ drinks elsewhere compared with Wisconsin. We're clearly outnumbered in this thread. It's not really that different than obesity or other epidemic health problems. Lots of people live with it and function despite of it, but it certainly isn't good for them!

[JackNicholson1974]

Like I said, I dont really give a rip how much you drink so long as you arent breaking the law while drunk. As I have repeated many times in this thread, I may be jaded and have a different perspective as a criminal defense attorney who deals with people who break the law, every single day, and the common theme is alcohol and drug addiction.

 

I believe binge drinking in this state is a problem. Every where I look to get some information on binge drinking it maintains that it is defined by drinking heavy amounts of alcohol for the purpose of getting overly intoxicated, usually defined as more than 5 drinks or when people get over .08. Im not trying to be holier than thou, Im pointing out facts. There is a deeply ingrained drinking culture in this state, that is evidenced by the number of people who take offense to me stating that drinking oneself to a .22 is not normal. As So Cal Brewer Fan pointed out, in other parts of the country it isnt normal.

 

As I said above, if that isnt you and your friends, thats awesome, living in Chicago it is probably easier to get around without a car than say, living in Slinger or Campbelsport and getting to rural bars. The fact that I believe that drinking to a .22 fits the definition of binge drinking, and that I think binge drinking is a problem in this State doesnt mean that I object to you getting blasted with your friends on weekends. that's your lifestyle and Im fine with it. People should be able to go out and have 2 drinks with dinner, no drinks with friends or 15 drinks at a party, its up to them. I have a problem when those decisions turn dangerous, criminal activities like driving drunk.

 

If you dont think that 12 beers or a .22 is binge drinking then take it up with the Center for Disease Control and Prevention and get the definition changed, or have them leave the definition the same and have them change the health, economic and societal problems they list that they say it causes. http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/binge-drinking.htm

[JimH5]

I think we basically agree on everything except the whole ".22 is a problem part". The rest of your statement is what I was getting at. If it's such a problem how do 90% (or whatever # you want to use, certainly a majority) of those college kids overcome it so easily? That's my only question.

 

I think the ".22 is a problem" is my point--not exclusively, as there are others who are in agreement--but I was early in the thread to take that stance.

 

So, I'll answer your questions from my own point of view. These are just my observations, I'm not a counselor or expert in addiction.

 

When I say "anyone who reaches a .22 has a drinking problem", I don't mean to imply that they are addicted to alcohol, or that they must undergo rehab to fix the problem that they have.

 

Most college kids grow out of it. They no longer have the mindset that they have to be blitzed to have a good time. Or that they are really looking forward to getting hammered. Or that they like the feeling of drunkenness, because life is better when they have a buzz.

 

Drinking 12 beers isn't better than drinking 2 or 3. It's a sign that 3 wasn't enough for you, and you had to have the next 9 to really reach an adequate level of happiness.

 

If you had a friend who insisted on eating 3 pizzas and 2 dozen wings 10 times a year, nobody would object if you declared that he had an eating problem. I get that it's a common part of our culture to drink until we're drunk and share the stories afterward. But it can be both common and a problem.

 

I've got family members and friends who couldn't imagine a night out without drinks. They can't imagine drinking and stopping before they get drunk. I don't know if they have a physical addiction or not. It's just that it's never dawned on them to not get drunk. That's the cultural part that's troublesome. But it's not that way everywhere.

 

With Gallardo, I called for the Brewers to put him on the DL and send him to rehab, mostly because of the investment they have in him and his role as a representative of the team. His situation as a public figure and expensive contract if different than what most of us have in our lives.

 

Not everyone who blows a .22 is an alcoholic. But to get to that, they had to drink a lot, and that's the problem.

[Patrick425]

I have read a lot of postings along the lines of "Just because you drive drunk it does not mean you are a bad person". Maybe not, but then my question is, what does make a "bad person"? What is the definition of a "bad person"? Is it actions or is it intentions? If I drive drunk on a a regular basis without the intent of hurting anyone that does mean I'm not a bad person? If I rob the neighborhood convenience store without any intention of causing physical, emotional, or financial harm to anyone does that mean I'm not a bad person?

 

Is there a magical number of acts or "bad intentions" that I need to exercise before I'm considered a bad person? It just seems to be a common phrase.."Well he's really not a bad person, but....." Adults use this phrase a lot when discussing troubled kids: "He really is a good kid, he just....."

 

Other than notable figures such as Hitler, Bin Laden, etc, it seems that most people want to be believe that no one is really a bad person.

 

Sorry, I know this is way off topic from discussing Gallardo and his recent issue.

[StearnsFTW]

Jim, thank you for your response. It was intelligent and well thought-out. I think, given your explanation, that I agree with you for the most part.

 

What this really boils down to, for me at least, is whether Yovanni changes his behavior based on this incident. If he does this again, I think it's pretty clear that there's a pretty big problem. Hopefully this discussion ends here.

[thebruce44]

Like I said, I dont really give a rip how much you drink so long as you arent breaking the law while drunk. As I have repeated many times in this thread, I may be jaded and have a different perspective as a criminal defense attorney who deals with people who break the law, every single day, and the common theme is alcohol and drug addiction.

 

I believe binge drinking in this state is a problem. Every where I look to get some information on binge drinking it maintains that it is defined by drinking heavy amounts of alcohol for the purpose of getting overly intoxicated, usually defined as more than 5 drinks or when people get over .08. Im not trying to be holier than thou, Im pointing out facts. There is a deeply ingrained drinking culture in this state, that is evidenced by the number of people who take offense to me stating that drinking oneself to a .22 is not normal. As So Cal Brewer Fan pointed out, in other parts of the country it isnt normal.

 

As I said above, if that isnt you and your friends, thats awesome, living in Chicago it is probably easier to get around without a car than say, living in Slinger or Campbelsport and getting to rural bars. The fact that I believe that drinking to a .22 fits the definition of binge drinking, and that I think binge drinking is a problem in this State doesnt mean that I object to you getting blasted with your friends on weekends. that's your lifestyle and Im fine with it. People should be able to go out and have 2 drinks with dinner, no drinks with friends or 15 drinks at a party, its up to them. I have a problem when those decisions turn dangerous, criminal activities like driving drunk.

 

If you dont think that 12 beers or a .22 is binge drinking then take it up with the Center for Disease Control and Prevention and get the definition changed, or have them leave the definition the same and have them change the health, economic and societal problems they list that they say it causes. http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/binge-drinking.htm

 

I never in any sense insinuated that drinking 12 beers or a .22 isn't binge drinking so not sure why you are arguing that. Binge drinking is just a label I could care less about. I took offense to you deciding through sweeping generalizations that me and many of the people I know have drinking problems and aren't productive members of society, which you still haven't addressed.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Well, unless you have to sit near them at a sporting event (or any other event that serves alcohol). Unless you are sitting in the family section (which many stadiums/arenas do not have and the ones that have them only have 2 or 3 areas) it's basically a gamble taking your family to a game and risking sitting next to someone or a group of people who feel the need to get overly drunk and obnoxious.

 

I get that, and yes those situations occur all too often - Doesn't mean it's fine or should be acceptable, but it's better than having to share the road with a drunk driver. There are places people can go inside Miller Park to get away from the obnoxious if they want to avoid it.

 

I have read a lot of postings along the lines of "Just because you drive drunk it does not mean you are a bad person". Maybe not, but then my question is, what does make a "bad person"?

 

They may not be bad people, but IMO people who choose to drive drunk are stupid people, which in this case is just as dangerous. As I've stated earlier in this thread, I think opting to drive under the influence shouldn't be classified as a stupid decision, it's a decision made by a stupid person.

[Nottso]

Jim, thank you for your response. It was intelligent and well thought-out. I think, given your explanation, that I agree with you for the most part.

 

What this really boils down to, for me at least, is whether Yovanni changes his behavior based on this incident. If he does this again, I think it's pretty clear that there's a pretty big problem. Hopefully this discussion ends here.

 

I concur, although I still can't get any more or any less outraged by the ".22" number.

[thebruce44]

I think we basically agree on everything except the whole ".22 is a problem part". The rest of your statement is what I was getting at. If it's such a problem how do 90% (or whatever # you want to use, certainly a majority) of those college kids overcome it so easily? That's my only question.

 

I think the ".22 is a problem" is my point--not exclusively, as there are others who are in agreement--but I was early in the thread to take that stance.

 

So, I'll answer your questions from my own point of view. These are just my observations, I'm not a counselor or expert in addiction.

 

When I say "anyone who reaches a .22 has a drinking problem", I don't mean to imply that they are addicted to alcohol, or that they must undergo rehab to fix the problem that they have.

 

Most college kids grow out of it. They no longer have the mindset that they have to be blitzed to have a good time. Or that they are really looking forward to getting hammered. Or that they like the feeling of drunkenness, because life is better when they have a buzz.

 

Drinking 12 beers isn't better than drinking 2 or 3. It's a sign that 3 wasn't enough for you, and you had to have the next 9 to really reach an adequate level of happiness.

 

If you had a friend who insisted on eating 3 pizzas and 2 dozen wings 10 times a year, nobody would object if you declared that he had an eating problem. I get that it's a common part of our culture to drink until we're drunk and share the stories afterward. But it can be both common and a problem.

 

I've got family members and friends who couldn't imagine a night out without drinks. They can't imagine drinking and stopping before they get drunk. I don't know if they have a physical addiction or not. It's just that it's never dawned on them to not get drunk. That's the cultural part that's troublesome. But it's not that way everywhere.

 

With Gallardo, I called for the Brewers to put him on the DL and send him to rehab, mostly because of the investment they have in him and his role as a representative of the team. His situation as a public figure and expensive contract if different than what most of us have in our lives.

 

Not everyone who blows a .22 is an alcoholic. But to get to that, they had to drink a lot, and that's the problem.

 

I think a lot of the disagreement in this thread really boils down to the somewhat continued use of words like "anyone" or "everyone."

 

And some of the other generalizations. If I have 12 beers on a Tuesday night when I work a regular 40 hour week in general thats not a good sign.

 

However, I've had weekends for example where I went to a party on Friday night and didn't drink because I wanted to get in a run Saturday morning, then that Saturday I had 12+ beers starting at 11 because there was an early Badger football game. Hell, I've even had weekends like there were I worked 8+ hours on Sunday (usually not feeling too great but still).

 

In that example, do people really think that's a problem? I'm not trying to argue, I'm just curious what the general perception of my lifestyle is.

[JackNicholson1974]

 

I never in any sense insinuated that drinking 12 beers or a .22 isn't binge drinking so not sure why you are arguing that. Binge drinking is just a label I could care less about. I took offense to you deciding through sweeping generalizations that me and many of the people I know have drinking problems and aren't productive members of society, which you still haven't addressed.

 

I said: Someone said that if .22 is a problem drinker than 50% of college students have drinking problems. Yes, yes they do. Some of those people will grow up and a grow out of it and become productive members of society. Some will be lifelong drunks and some will beat it with treatment. But yes, at the moment they do have a problem.

 

I never said you and your friends werent productive members of society. I said that college kids, who likely are not gainfully employed and who drink to excess regularly, have a binge drinking problem and that many of them out grow that.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Anytime someone drinks more than 3-4 adult beverages, I think we can safely say that they're not drinking that many because they're 'really thirsty'. At the point where a person is drinking a dozen or more alcoholic drinks there's really only one end game, and that's to get drunk. To not feel feelings, or to lose some level of control of inhibitions, bodily function, whatever.

 

If the precursor/requirement to having fun with friends (notice I said 'if'), if even only 10-12 times a year is to get ripped up before playing cards, or going to a game, or bowling, or golfing, or whatever it is.........if being drunk is a requirement or a necessity at such an event, then yes, I would say that it is in fact a 'drinking problem.'

 

NOW, that doesn't preclude such people from being "productive members of society" (and I still don't see where that came from) Often times, those two things can be mutually exclusive. Not always, but sometimes.

[thebruce44]

 

I never in any sense insinuated that drinking 12 beers or a .22 isn't binge drinking so not sure why you are arguing that. Binge drinking is just a label I could care less about. I took offense to you deciding through sweeping generalizations that me and many of the people I know have drinking problems and aren't productive members of society, which you still haven't addressed.

 

I said: Someone said that if .22 is a problem drinker than 50% of college students have drinking problems. Yes, yes they do. Some of those people will grow up and a grow out of it and become productive members of society. Some will be lifelong drunks and some will beat it with treatment. But yes, at the moment they do have a problem.

 

I never said you and your friends werent productive members of society. I said that college kids, who likely are not gainfully employed and who drink to excess regularly, have a binge drinking problem and that many of them out grow that.

 

I read what you said as the group of those college kids (me and my friends) who don't grow out of it wont become productive members of society. And that the options are either being lifelong drunks or beating the problem with treatment.

 

Am I being too sensitive here or did I just completely misread what you wrote? Or did you mean something other than what you wrote? Probably somewhere in the middle, I just want you to understand that not everyone who binge drinks in college has a problem. Hell, not everyone who binge drinks in college isn't a productive member of society at that time either. I could give tons of examples there too, myself being one of them. In college, I was into work by 7 the morning after summerfest literally making public roadways safer.

[thebruce44]

All this said, now I feel as though I'm coming off as some crazy drunk and that's not the case. My girlfriend and I certainly wish we were a little less involved in our lifestyle than we are and have been making a lot of attempts to do other things besides going to bars or parties (running is easily #1).

 

I just want to make it very clear to everyone here that there are people who on occasion hit high levels of intoxication at every age who aren't bad people, who don't have drinking problems, and who aren't endangering anyone else. Sweeping generalizations on this topic seem rather close minded.

[logan82]

usually defined as more than 5 drinks or when people get over .08.

I am sorry but that sets the bar so incredibly low I find it ridiculous.

[Oxy]

[xisxisxis]

I just want to make it very clear to everyone here that there are people who on occasion hit high levels of intoxication at every age who aren't bad people, who don't have drinking problems, and who aren't endangering anyone else. Sweeping generalizations on this topic seem rather close minded.

 

I drank more as a graduate student than when I was in college (mostly because I was being paid to be a graduate student, and as a college student I paid for my education). I typically would go out 4-5 nights a week and have 3-9 pints each night over a 4-5 hour period. Every time I drove home. While I don't drink nearly that amount anymore or to that frequency, I do think it was dangerous on some nights for me to be driving. However, in my case I didn't have the money to afford a cab and I lived 20 miles one way from my co-drinkers with no public transportation. A few times I slept on a friends couch. In those days if I had a card to get a free ride without having to pay I would have used it multiple times. Poverty was what lead to my reliance on my own car. So I can understand having a good time out and driving. Admittedly, there are 3 times in my life when I was drinking when I can't remember getting home (not now, but the next morning) and I went looking for my car each time because I had no idea where it was. Each time it was parked like it was driven home by a sober person. I also know that for 2 of the 3 times I had no food for hours before starting to drink heavily so I helped to create the situation myself. Given all of that, I'm not going to get in anyone's face unless there are clear signs that the drinking is more than just a social event. In Yo's case, he did a lot wrong when there were clearly multiple times where he could have done the smart thing. And maybe that's because he had so much to drink his thinking was so impaired that he didn't know how to make the right decision. For me that's happened 3 times and thankfully nobody was hurt. In that condition you don't want someone driving at high speeds on the freeway (or way too slow on a fast moving freeway). He was out drinking with others (at least he had a bodyguard) and either they were also too compromised to make clear decisions or he needs to reevaluate who is in his posse.

 

 

As far as .22 being not a big deal, while it is true people will have differences in the level of their impairment, each person is ALWAYS more impaired if he has a .22 BAC than a .15 BAC than a 0.07 BAC. So there is no good from being that drunk and impaired and getting behind the wheel. As in my own personal experience, it doesn't mean something bad WILL happen, it just increases the chances and each 0.01 increases the chances more.

[TheCrew07]

Having lived in many different parts of the country, it seems attitudes towards heavy drinking are far different in Wisconsin than other parts of the country. It certainly seems evident to me from reading this thread. In many places .22 would be considered a problem...in Wisconsin it's considered a weekend. Age, having lost people I knew to DD and moving out of the state have certainly changed my perspective on the matter.

 

Absolutely. Wisconsin is #1 in the nation in binge drinking. There are people who do it everywhere, but it is much more rare to see people drinking 7-8+ drinks elsewhere compared with Wisconsin. We're clearly outnumbered in this thread. It's not really that different than obesity or other epidemic health problems. Lots of people live with it and function despite of it, but it certainly isn't good for them!

 

These 2 posts together is an excellent summation of how I feel on the matter.