DM on DH Rule and NL Roster Construction

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

Not to restart a dead-horse debate, but DM is quoted extensively in Jayson Stark's ESPN article regarding the inevitable expansion of the DH rule. Here is the link:

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9158659/mlb-designated-hitter-spread-nl

 

For Brewer fans, I think what's interesting is getting into Melvin's head a little bit in terms of roster construction and the economics of contracts given the different AL and NL rules. It may not be anything revolutionary, but I think it's a good read. Really interesting tidbit about Overbay as well. Might liven up the discussion regarding the current lack of a true 1B on the active roster.

[crossface21]

I do think he's right. The DH is coming, it's just a matter of when. If I had to lean one way I guess I like having no DH, but there's no way they are gonna get rid of the DH so lets get everyone playing by the same rules. In football, they don't make the NFC teams go 12 yards for a first down and in the AFC 10 yards. Why baseball has stayed with this format this long is stupid. At the very least, a couple years after they started playing Interleague, this should have been dealt with.

[Warning Track Power]

I am sick of the DH and the idea of the DH coming to NL is maddening. I know the DH is in pretty much all leagues leading up to MLB and I know the arguments for both sides and can definitely see the point for both points of view. My reason for not liking the DL though isn't about strategy, the NL being better than the AL or anything like that. It is simply that I just don't like the idea of someone only playing half of the game. In my opinion, sports is about being able to play both offense and defense. What does the DH do between the ABs? Sit on the bench? Go to the bathroom? Maybe hit in the cage? But is he engaged in the game? I just don't like it.

[Crew2323]

I am sick of the DH and the idea of the DH coming to NL is maddening. I know the DH is in pretty much all leagues leading up to MLB and I know the arguments for both sides and can definitely see the point for both points of view. My reason for not liking the DL though isn't about strategy, the NL being better than the AL or anything like that. It is simply that I just don't like the idea of someone only playing half of the game. In my opinion, sports is about being able to play both offense and defense. What does the DH do between the ABs? Sit on the bench? Go to the bathroom? Maybe hit in the cage? But is he engaged in the game? I just don't like it.

 

So do you feel the same way about the NFL then? Or college or high school football? Or even relief pitchers? Are they really engaged when their side of the ball is off the field, or when they aren't being called on to pitch?

[sveumrules]

While I greatly prefer NL style baseball I'm fine with bringing the DH to the National League. Not that we ever could have matched Detroit's offer in the first place, but it would have given the front office much more leeway in hypothetical Fielder negotiations knowing he could DH at the end of any deal.

[owbc]

According to the ESPN poll, 63% favor either no DH at all or keeping the current rules.

 

That being said, I agree that the DH will probably go to both leagues eventually. Especially if offense continues to stagnate.

[Warning Track Power]

I am sick of the DH and the idea of the DH coming to NL is maddening. I know the DH is in pretty much all leagues leading up to MLB and I know the arguments for both sides and can definitely see the point for both points of view. My reason for not liking the DL though isn't about strategy, the NL being better than the AL or anything like that. It is simply that I just don't like the idea of someone only playing half of the game. In my opinion, sports is about being able to play both offense and defense. What does the DH do between the ABs? Sit on the bench? Go to the bathroom? Maybe hit in the cage? But is he engaged in the game? I just don't like it.

 

So do you feel the same way about the NFL then? Or college or high school football? Or even relief pitchers? Are they really engaged when their side of the ball is off the field, or when they aren't being called on to pitch?

 

Without being condescending, have you ever played football? When you're on the sideline you're often getting coached up or studying previous plays in that game. Regardless, NFL-MLB is an apples to oranges comparison. The core fundamentals of running, jumping, hitting, etc...you do whether you are on defense or on offense. As for relief pitchers, they are bench players, similar to bench hitters.

 

The bottom line for me is that baseball is an offense and defense game. If you don't play defense, then you shouldn't play offense. I would much rather see an 8 man lineup than the incorporation of a DH in the NL.

[TooLiveBrew]

You know, an 8-man lineup in the NL is actually a really intriguing idea. I hadn't thought of or heard of that idea before.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

You know, an 8-man lineup in the NL is actually a really intriguing idea. I hadn't thought of or heard of that idea before.

Interesting...but it would be DOA with the MLBPA.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

Yeah, I hadn't thought of an 8-man lineup either. I like the boldness of it.

 

It would, however, be a really radical rule change, wouldn't it? Without doing any kind of research, my gut feeling is we'd be talking about a significant increase in offense just from getting your top three hitters that many more at-bats over the course of a season.

 

I'm inclined to think the offense/defense rule should apply to starting pitchers as much as it does to hitters as well.

 

I kind of blown away by the suggestion though. It's provocative.

[TooLiveBrew]

You know, an 8-man lineup in the NL is actually a really intriguing idea. I hadn't thought of or heard of that idea before.

Interesting...but it would be DOA with the MLBPA.

I'm sure this would be true. But it's still a really interesting idea to kick around.

[JohnBriggs12]

Baseball is becoming more of a world game. There is one league where there is no DH used and that's the NL in the US. It's coming and sooner (within 5-6 years)rather than later (more than 10).

 

It just doesn't make sense to continue to have 2 sets of rules, and the genie (DH) is already out of the bottle.

[pogokat]

I've always thought the DH would be in the NL eventually---It's also one of those rules that everyone will carp about until it's changed, then almost immediately forget what the game looked like without the DH in the NL.

 

As Stark Mentioned, no one under 40 has grown up without it---which also means they've never played in a league that doesn't have it. Seriously, a ton of REC and Juvenile leagues feature the EH now, which, if anything, shows how far the actual game style has shifted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

also, the Brewers would have a place for Khris Davis

[Warning Track Power]

If they add the DH to both leagues I hope that MLB also does a radical realignment which places all teams geographically. The Brewers in a division with the Cubs, White Sox, Twins and Cardinals or Royals would be a nice division.

[rluzinski]

All professional leagues tend to avoid putting two teams from the same city in the same division.

[dlk9s]

NBA tho

[jerichoholicninja]

Adding the DH to the NL will only further hurt small market teams. That's another position to fill. Another 5+ million to a payroll that can't be spent elsewhere. I've seen the argument that there aren't many "pure" DH's anymore in baseball but there will be if there are 15 more DH positions created and they will get expensive.

[valpocrewsader]

8-man lineup in the NL ... hadn't ... heard of that idea before.

 

Ahem! http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?p=821710#p821710

[TooLiveBrew]

8-man lineup in the NL ... hadn't ... heard of that idea before.

 

Ahem! http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?p=821710#p821710

A hat tip to you, sir

[Schlitz001]

I wish they would make the change one way or the other. Having one league with a DH and one without gives a slight advantage to AL teams in inter-league and World Series games.

 

I personally love seeing the pitcher hit. It's exciting watching Gallardo take Randy Johnson deep, or even seeing Ben Sheets get an RBI. The managerial moves are also more fun to discuss without the DH.

[DHonks]

I once called into the XM afternoon radio show and mentioned that MLB needs to expand to 26 players for interleague play. My reasoning that the AL clubs might want a pitcher or bench player while NL clubs might want to call up a AA/AAA hitter to be a temporary extra legit bat. Rosters are constructed in different ways in the leagues, and it would give roster flexibility. I think Bowden's response might have been "uh, I don't think that's necessary. Thanks for the call"

[Ennder]

Whatever you think about the DH the simple truth is hitting is about repetition and pitchers just do not get enough repetitions to ever be effective hitters. Sports are moving towards protecting their players and one of the easier ways to cut down on injuries is to protect them by not putting them in a situation they can't possibly be ready for. This is even worse for AL hitters and even worse with the new system that spreads out their interleague games. At this point the pitcher hitting is just bad for MLB.

 

Back in the old days a pitcher would get 100-150 PA a year so they could stay in some sort of reasonable hitting shape. An AL pitcher gets maybe 5 to 10 PA a year, it is outrageous to expect them to hit major league pitching and it certainly is not safe. An NL pitcher usually gets fewer than 50 PA which again isn't nearly enough. The game has changed and the rules need to change with it.

 

I actually prefer to watch AL games because I find watching a pitcher flail away weakly or give themselves up with 1 out and a runner on 2nd etc to just be a boring part of the game. I tracked it once and it is under 10% of games that have an actual interesting managerial choice based on taking the SP out of the game. This talk of all the extra strategy is much more of a playoff or big game thing where managers are willing to yank a pitcher in the 4th etc.

 

The biggest problem with the discussion is usually people responding to what they like and not what is actually best for baseball. What I enjoy really has nothing to do with my opinion on the subject, the league should do what is actually best for the game and that is pretty clear at this point. The same way the NFL is making the game 'worse' to many fans by limiting the big hits to protect their players. The pitching hitting is just obsolete at this point.

[pebadger]

As of this posting, there is an unscientific Sportsnation poll at ESPN asking whether the DH should be in place in both leagues, only the AL or abolished. A plurality (41%) are in favor of getting rid of the DH. WI is one of the few states in which an outright majority of (self-selected) respondents hold that opinion. As might be expected, the AL-heavy states (except California) are pro-"all DH". None of the states are in favor of the current split rules setup.

 

My formative years were with the Crew in the AL, but I've never really liked the DH. I'm sure my opinion will sway the decisionmakers at MLB HQ.

[jerichoholicninja]

Whatever you think about the DH the simple truth is hitting is about repetition and pitchers just do not get enough repetitions to ever be effective hitters. Sports are moving towards protecting their players and one of the easier ways to cut down on injuries is to protect them by not putting them in a situation they can't possibly be ready for. This is even worse for AL hitters and even worse with the new system that spreads out their interleague games. At this point the pitcher hitting is just bad for MLB.

 

Back in the old days a pitcher would get 100-150 PA a year so they could stay in some sort of reasonable hitting shape. An AL pitcher gets maybe 5 to 10 PA a year, it is outrageous to expect them to hit major league pitching and it certainly is not safe. An NL pitcher usually gets fewer than 50 PA which again isn't nearly enough. The game has changed and the rules need to change with it.

 

I actually prefer to watch AL games because I find watching a pitcher flail away weakly or give themselves up with 1 out and a runner on 2nd etc to just be a boring part of the game. I tracked it once and it is under 10% of games that have an actual interesting managerial choice based on taking the SP out of the game. This talk of all the extra strategy is much more of a playoff or big game thing where managers are willing to yank a pitcher in the 4th etc.

 

The biggest problem with the discussion is usually people responding to what they like and not what is actually best for baseball. What I enjoy really has nothing to do with my opinion on the subject, the league should do what is actually best for the game and that is pretty clear at this point. The same way the NFL is making the game 'worse' to many fans by limiting the big hits to protect their players. The pitching hitting is just obsolete at this point.

 

So because pitchers aren't good hitters they shouldn't have to hit? A good number of starting middle infielders and bench players shouldn't have to hit either then using that logic. Heck, the Brewers bullpen shouldn't have to pitch then too.

[Ennder]

So because pitchers aren't good hitters they shouldn't have to hit? A good number of starting middle infielders and bench players shouldn't have to hit either then using that logic. Heck, the Brewers bullpen shouldn't have to pitch then too.

 

If that is your take from my post I don't think it is going to be worth discussing this with you. An AL pitcher gets under 10 PA a year, do you really think they should be up there hitting? Do you honestly feel they are prepared to the point that is actually safe? Your counterpoint has nothing at all to do with anything I said.