Jonah Keri of Grantland NAILS it...

[logan82]

Those are reasonable counter arguments. It's clear that the current situation isn't working, but the injuries made it far, far worse than it would have been otherwise.

You are right they absolutely did. I am still holding out hope Yuni is gone when Green and Hart come back.

[splitterpfj]

I don't think carrying 13 pitchers has caused a problem for this team. I think lousy pitching by the pitchers they're carrying, combined with an offense that began without it's 5 hitter, lost it's 4 hitter, went a series without it's perennial MVP candidate, and is still missing it's young shortstop is why the team started 1-5.

 

The team tried to sign Lyle Overbay, but he went somewhere else, because he knows Hart will be back, and in the NL, that means no playing time for Lyle. Yes, they could have signed someone else, but they chose to sign Betancourt. That's just the way that one is, if that issue overrides the ridiculous list of injuries, the bad pitching, a broken bat flying at the first baseman to destroy an inning, a wild pitch actually scoring two runs...you get where I'm at on this, I think it's just a completely horrible start, much more than I think it's roster construction.

[logan82]

I don't think the team even had a chance at Overbay. I believe he had to pass through waivers and was claimed by the Yankees.

[splitterpfj]

Logan, before that, when Overbay signed with Boston, he chose them over the Brewers, then they cut him, and New York claimed him.

[splitterpfj]

The writer makes his points, but this made me laugh out loud. In criticizing the team for being down to Gonzalez and Betancourt at the corner infield spots on Sunday, he says...

 

"Injuries to Corey Hart, Mat Gamel, and Aramis Ramirez are partially to blame."

 

That's deep.

 

Oh, and anyone who writes how a team may, "be boned", has lost me from that point on.

[logan82]

Did we even want to sign him at that point? I think he signed before Gamel got hurt.

[splitterpfj]

Yes, logan, the Brewers made a real attempt to sign Overbay.

 

If you Google it, it's there, late January.

[logan82]

Yes, logan, the Brewers made a real attempt to sign Overbay.

 

If you Google it, it's there, late January.

but still before Gamel got hurt. I can see how Overbay would not be interested. After Hart returned he would be the backup to the backup.

[splitterpfj]

Yep, that's exactly why Lyle went with Boston, he knew Hart would be back, and with no DH, he's either going to be a bench guy with Gamel out, or he's going to be cut in May.

[The stache]

It's funny to argue that a pitching staff that has been hammered and is already taxed after one week of baseball, the problem is having that 13th pitcher.

 

They're taxed. Yes.

 

We are carrying more pitchers than we should be, and they're still overworked.

 

Maybe, just maybe our manager is clueless as to how to manage a pitching staff?

[The stache]

All of the panicking is pretty outrageous. Same. Thing. Every. Year.

 

You would think people would learn.

 

I don't think that anything in this thread suggests panicking. We've only failed to reach .500 twice in the last five years, and one of those seasons we went 80-82. So I don't envision us suddenly plummeting off of a cliff. But when we have a starting pitcher pinch hitting in the bottom of the 11th inning with the game on the line, and when we have an average at best career shortstop starting at first base when there are several options in the minors that have actually been playing the position for a while, the construction of the team's is a valid point of discussion.

[RobertR]

Maybe, Segura isn't left hanging out to dry if we have an experienced first baseman fielding the position. And then we have a bench player left in extra innings.

 

I agree that Melvin should be criticized for the roster construction, but the fact that Axford has struggled, Gallardo got off to a slow start, Ramirez got hurt, and Braun had neck spasms, are the primary reasons for the struggles. Yeah, I'd bite the bullet and call up Morris or Halton, but I can't say that the record would be any better considering all that's gone wrong in the first week.

[logan82]

I don't know if we ever had a chance at Overbay. The Yankees snapped him up pretty quick when Boston dumped him. Regardless, we have 2 guys in AAA who we wouldn't have to sign. All we would have to do is make a 40-man roster spot. Not easy but not impossible.

[Ennder]

It's funny to argue that a pitching staff that has been hammered and is already taxed after one week of baseball, the problem is having that 13th pitcher.

 

They're taxed. Yes.

 

We are carrying more pitchers than we should be, and they're still overworked.

 

Maybe, just maybe our manager is clueless as to how to manage a pitching staff?

 

No, he just has a rotation that hasn't been able to go deep into games and the 13th pitcher is injured so can't pitch. This is normal for April which is why the article was so dumb. Teams carry 12 pitchers in April for a reason, we have a 13th because of an injury and not wanting to lose a player and the late signing of Lohse putting extra stress on the roster.

[SoupTown]

I understand all the interesting discussion on our roster except where (re first base) the defenders? of the roster say 'Morris makes/made sense but for WHATEVER REASON he was not used'.

 

Did you all hear Ueck on Maldonado's back hand error at first in the 9th. Ueck said 'that shows you just cannot put anybody there at first'. He pretty much said it would be good if the Brewers had a first baseman at first. Ueck said anybody, of course, can catch a ball thrown to them, but...'

 

Now, thinking about Morris - why would you not even try. He did win the gold glove at AA last year. But maybe minors gold gloves are like the majors... another batting award. But, 'for whatever reason...'

[FVBrewerFan]

Morris is a reasonable choice, but they are holding him back because of service time I assume? He also was 3 for 26 in spring training, so most likely we would still be 1-5 and in near-panic mode either way.

 

Exactly. And he's off to a slow start in Nashville. He's lost at the plate at this point in time, so it wouldn't do the Brewers or Morris any good to bring him up at the start of the season (or now.) We all have fun Yuni starting at 1B, etc. Heck that stuff is made for BF. But honestly, I can't believe the record would be any different if Morris. Overbay, Halton, or any of the other cast of thousands would have played 1B.

 

What WILL be interesting to see is whether Green starts at 1B or 3B when he comes off the 15 day.

[MNBrew]

Splitter & Ennder, thanks for being reasonable voices in the midst of this knee-jerk & backlash-heavy thread. I echo your thinking:

 

- We're missing not only our #1 (Hart) & #2 (Gamel) 1B, but also #3 (Green). Gonzalez, Maldonado, or even Yuni B for a couple games at 1B IS NOT the end of the world OR a sign that Melvin & Roenicke are mental midgets dooming the franchise to certain ruin.

- The few days Braun was out, we were missing our top 3 power hitters & run producers. Plus Lucroy's hitting like he dropped a suitcase on both his hands.

- John Axford wasn't good in ST and has put up these mind-boggling numbers so far: 1:1 Runs:Outs ratio; 1:2 HR:Outs ratio. Ouch!

- Gallardo's doing an Axford or Randy Wolf impersonation re: decreasing velocity & being BP-type hittable.

- Other than Lohse, no SPs did very well in their first turn at all.

 

However....

- In spite of all the above, it was a mere 2-5 stretch with that 13-man staff which realistically at most could've/should've been a 4-3 opening record. 5-2 would've taken catching plenty of breaks.

- Blake Lalli should be a half-decent stop-gap at 1B now that he's on his way (w/ Hart going to the 60-day -- why not Bianchi, I wonder, since he's nowhere near roster-ready).

- Yuni B is VERY DFA-able once Green returns and Gonzalez can return to his intended role as top utility IF.

- Thankfully, it's still UNBELIEVABLY early and I'd say there's a far greater likelihood that this bad opening run is more "outlier" than "norm" as the 6-month season plays out. If we're still playing like this in mid-May without any sustained improvement, then I'd say the concerns are more likely deep-rooted and cause for possible significant changes. But to scream "bloody murder" after 7 games and to again hear the non-stop Melvin/Roenicke bashing seems like quite the overreaction.

 

To me, ultimately the bottom line is this: It won't matter who the heck is at 1B if the pitchers can't pitch like MLB pitchers no matter how many of 'em we actually have.

[thebruce44]

It's funny to argue that a pitching staff that has been hammered and is already taxed after one week of baseball, the problem is having that 13th pitcher.

 

They're taxed. Yes.

 

We are carrying more pitchers than we should be, and they're still overworked.

 

Maybe, just maybe our manager is clueless as to how to manage a pitching staff?

 

No, he just has a rotation that hasn't been able to go deep into games and the 13th pitcher is injured so can't pitch. This is normal for April which is why the article was so dumb. Teams carry 12 pitchers in April for a reason, we have a 13th because of an injury and not wanting to lose a player and the late signing of Lohse putting extra stress on the roster.

 

So basically you are saying all teams do this...then we went a step further due to poor planning and then another step further due to more poor planning. But thats not anyone's fault and its normal and the article was dumb for pointing that out.

[Oxy]

 

They're taxed. Yes.

 

We are carrying more pitchers than we should be, and they're still overworked.

 

Maybe, just maybe our manager is clueless as to how to manage a pitching staff?

 

No, he just has a rotation that hasn't been able to go deep into games and the 13th pitcher is injured so can't pitch. This is normal for April which is why the article was so dumb. Teams carry 12 pitchers in April for a reason, we have a 13th because of an injury and not wanting to lose a player and the late signing of Lohse putting extra stress on the roster.

 

So basically you are saying all teams do this...then we went a step further due to poor planning and then another step further due to more poor planning. But thats not anyone's fault and its normal and the article was dumb for pointing that out.

 

How do you plan for injuries to 5 IF players? The plan was to have Bianchi and Green available. They got hurt, so we signed Yuni B. Before any decisions were made about the pitching staff, RR and Melvin probably wanted to see how guys looked in Spring Training. That didn't go so well, so we signed Lohse, then Narveson got hurt. It's absolutely absurd to "plan" to need to be 5 deep at every position on the field. Sheesh.

[thebruce44]

No, he just has a rotation that hasn't been able to go deep into games and the 13th pitcher is injured so can't pitch. This is normal for April which is why the article was so dumb. Teams carry 12 pitchers in April for a reason, we have a 13th because of an injury and not wanting to lose a player and the late signing of Lohse putting extra stress on the roster.

 

So basically you are saying all teams do this...then we went a step further due to poor planning and then another step further due to more poor planning. But thats not anyone's fault and its normal and the article was dumb for pointing that out.

 

How do you plan for injuries to 5 IF players? The plan was to have Bianchi and Green available. They got hurt, so we signed Yuni B. Before any decisions were made about the pitching staff, RR and Melvin probably wanted to see how guys looked in Spring Training. That didn't go so well, so we signed Lohse, then Narveson got hurt. It's absolutely absurd to "plan" to need to be 5 deep at every position on the field. Sheesh.

 

Minor league depth? We are talking about 1B here. That means EVERYONE in the organization is available who can hit better than AGonz. Not to mention how many years now have we carried a gritty leader 1B type (who RR eventually decides can play CF) for some strange reason. The one year we decide not to is the year we should have had that guy in camp and actually kept him.

 

EDIT: And as TLB said below, you don't evaluate talent in ST.

[TooLiveBrew]

How do you plan for injuries to 5 IF players? The plan was to have Bianchi and Green available. They got hurt, so we signed Yuni B. Before any decisions were made about the pitching staff, RR and Melvin probably wanted to see how guys looked in Spring Training. That didn't go so well, so we signed Lohse, then Narveson got hurt. It's absolutely absurd to "plan" to need to be 5 deep at every position on the field. Sheesh.

If this is 100% the case, then the Brewers have a massive problem in talent evaluation in the organization. There is absolutely no reason, beyond a case like Rogers's arm not being live, that a GM and manager should need Spring Training to evaluate the talent they have. They should have had a very solid idea coming into ST, and then used players' current form to help decide rotation order, etc.

 

As it stands, with regards to the pitching, the only plan seems to have been to throw mid-level money at the bullpen & hope everything else worked out. Earlier in the offseason when Edwin Jackson was available without the cost of losing a first-round pick, there were many posters here who advocated signing him in the interest of adding stability & depth to a young & inexperienced rotation. Melvin played the 'you don't want to get burned in FA' card at the time, & stuck to his guns that the talent the Brewers had in-house was good enough to rely on for 2013... and then wound up guaranteeing over $30m to a pitcher through his age-36 season (along with losing a first round pick) because it was clear the rotation needed more depth & stability. If Melvin needed ST to show him that his front office's talent evaluation of the pitching staff was wrong, then that's yet another indicator that it's time for the Brewers to move on & make some changes in the front office.

[faede]

How do you plan for injuries to 5 IF players? The plan was to have Bianchi and Green available. They got hurt, so we signed Yuni B. Before any decisions were made about the pitching staff, RR and Melvin probably wanted to see how guys looked in Spring Training. That didn't go so well, so we signed Lohse, then Narveson got hurt. It's absolutely absurd to "plan" to need to be 5 deep at every position on the field. Sheesh.

If this is 100% the case, then the Brewers have a massive problem in talent evaluation in the organization. There is absolutely no reason, beyond a case like Rogers's arm not being live, that a GM and manager should need Spring Training to evaluate the talent they have. They should have had a very solid idea coming into ST, and then used players' current form to help decide rotation order, etc.

 

As it stands, with regards to the pitching, the only plan seems to have been to throw mid-level money at the bullpen & hope everything else worked out. Earlier in the offseason when Edwin Jackson was available without the cost of losing a first-round pick, there were many posters here who advocated signing him in the interest of adding stability & depth to a young & inexperienced rotation. Melvin played the 'you don't want to get burned in FA' card at the time, & stuck to his guns that the talent the Brewers had in-house was good enough to rely on for 2013... and then wound up guaranteeing over $30m to a pitcher through his age-36 season (along with losing a first round pick) because it was clear the rotation needed more depth & stability. If Melvin needed ST to show him that his front office's talent evaluation of the pitching staff was wrong, then that's yet another indicator that it's time for the Brewers to move on & make some changes in the front office.

 

Isn't that really speculative?

 

Here's an alternative scenario:

 

The goal for the starting pitching staff was:

1. Gallardo

2. Estrada

3. Peralta

4. Rogers

5. Fiers

 

Narveson was an option B and Burgos an option C. Hellweg/Thornburg are option D/E, but they would much prefer to keep them down at AAA.

 

The brewers are monitoring the Lohse situation as he's a decent option, but, presumably his "Boras" price (4 years, probably a pretty hefty AAV) is outside of what they want to pay. They are comfortable with their internal options at that point and are content to not panic and let the chips fall where they may.

 

Spring training is about to end and Boras is getting a little worried. The asking price goes down on Lohse to a spot that, while not comfortable, is acceptable to Melvin/Attanasio. They get Lohse.

 

Rogers goes down. Lohse plugs in instead of Narveson as option B. Narveson is injured, Burgos is pitching well and probably doesn't need any seasoning. If Rogers doesn't come back and Fiers can't regain his form from last year, Burgos comes in as an option.

 

The plan for the next year transforms into:

Gallardo

Lohse

Estrada

Peralta/Rogers/Hellweg/Burgos/Fiers/Jungman/Thornburg (pick the best 2).

[Ennder]

Players win jobs in spring training on all teams, to suggest that making marginal roster choices based on spring training is some sort of flawed thing seems pretty insane.

[Noche]

The number of armchair geniuses is pretty annoying. I have news for many; you are not capable of just whipping up a World Series roster. There are so many factors that people just refuse to consider.

 

This team is going to get hot and when it happens, it will likely coincide with when we get Braun, Ramirez, Segura, Hart and Rogers all back to full health. 5.5 months left. Actually, more. People need to relax and stop over thinking all of this.

[thebruce44]

The number of armchair geniuses is pretty annoying. I have news for many; you are not capable of just whipping up a World Series roster. There are so many factors that people just refuse to consider.

 

This team is going to get hot and when it happens, it will likely coincide with when we get Braun, Ramirez, Segura, Hart and Rogers all back to full health. 5.5 months left. Actually, more. People need to relax and stop over thinking all of this.

 

The dismissive attitude and hyperbole of new posters is pretty annoying.

 

I guess we shouldn't worry about potentially dropping an extra game or two early in the season due to poor roster management. No way that could come back to haunt us towards the end...