The Kyle Lohse Love/Hate Thread

[JohnBriggs12]

Lohse's career numbers in Miller Park (If you are faint hearted stop reading now):

 

44 IP, 56 Hits, 34 Runs all earned, 7 HR, 15 BB. 25 K, 6.95 ERA, 1.614 Whip, .890 OPS against.

[logan82]

If they're out of it at the trading deadline either of the next two years, they can move him for something.

Sounds good in theory but how likely is that to really happen?

[liveforoctober]

I mean.. I get it. I do.

 

But you would think the talk here would be a little more positive after the Brewers signed a guy who was 16-3 last year with a 2.83 ERA, 1.09 WHIP, and an OBA sub .240? Again, I get it. But this makes our rotation better and this will likely save some innings for/improve our bullpen.

 

Leary about year 3? Yep. Hate losing the draft pick? Yep. But for a team that made a nice run WITH THIS ROSTER the last half of last year and the pitching staff was the reason for us not making the playoffs ... I'm ok with it. There is no arguing this doesn't make our rotation better for this campaign.

 

But again, I get it.

[Dollarbill13]

Is it too much to think that Doug may have signed him with the intent of potentially trading him at the deadline this year if we're out of it? I think the dollars are reasonable, the question is just whether the extra couple wins that he'd provide is worth to the Brewers. If he's pitching well and the Brewers aren't in the race, he'd have quite a bit of value over what his salary would suggest and could possibly fetch a good prospect package - probably more than the 17th pick in the draft is worth.

[splitterpfj]

This thread is great entertainment. I've said I wouldn't have done it, because of the draft implications, and I wouldn't have, but some of you guys are losing your minds.

 

I can see a negative reaction to just about any transaction, but this is no catastrophe, it's just not a move I would have made.

 

The contract is not a killer, baseball economics will never make sense in any of our worlds, but the team can handle this move financially, and there is NO WAY Kyle Lohse is not an upgrade for this team. NONE, ZERO.

 

The Suppan signing was a mess, and the Wolf signing was one year too many, for those of you who keep saying neither of those moves worked, Mr Wolf helped this team for two seasons, and had a lousy season at the end. You never know, Lohse could blow his arm out tomorrow, but he could also be the best of the three moves, by a long shot.

 

If any of you really won't root for Lohse as a Brewer, I'll never understand that. He's on the home team, and he'll be trying to help them win, what's the alternative...to root for a loss?

 

Whatever happens on the field, I'm already grateful for the entertainment value off the field, this really is great reading.

 

I wish it was two years, but that wasn't going to happen with a free agent pitcher who's coming off strong numbers. I wish we still had our first round pick in June, but it's gone now. I wish St Louis wasn't the team that will add an extra pick based on the move, but they are.

 

That's it for me, no panic, no hate, no lynch mob, I just would've kept the pick.

[JohnBriggs12]

If they're out of it at the trading deadline either of the next two years, they can move him for something.

Sounds good in theory but how likely is that to really happen?

 

He'd actually have to be pitching well to have trade value with that contract (unlikely). In the off chance he is, they'd likely be in it if he is. I'm afraid we're stuck with him and guys like Burgos, Thornburg, Jungmann, are all going to be pushed deeper.

 

Have to think now Rogers will be waived for the 40 man spot. I suppose they'll hang on to him if he clears.

[RobDeer 45]

Lohse's career numbers in Miller Park (If you are faint hearted stop reading now):

 

44 IP, 56 Hits, 34 Runs all earned, 7 HR, 15 BB. 25 K, 6.95 ERA, 1.614 Whip, .890 OPS against.

 

 

Good thing he's not pitching against us anymore, a top notch offense over the last several years. Those stats mean nothing.

[splitterpfj]

IIRC, one of the reasons given for the Suppan signing was his great career numbers at Miller Park.

[bensheeps]

"This thread is great entertainment. I've said I wouldn't have done it, because of the draft implications, and I wouldn't have, but some of you guys are losing your minds.

 

I can see a negative reaction to just about any transaction, but this is no catastrophe, it's just not a move I would have made.

 

The contract is not a killer, baseball economics will never make sense in any of our worlds, but the team can handle this move financially, and there is NO WAY Kyle Lohse is not an upgrade for this team. NONE, ZERO.

 

The Suppan signing was a mess, and the Wolf signing was one year too many, for those of you who keep saying neither of those moves worked, Mr Wolf helped this team for two seasons, and had a lousy season at the end. You never know, Lohse could blow his arm out tomorrow, but he could also be the best of the three moves, by a long shot.

 

If any of you really won't root for Lohse as a Brewer, I'll never understand that. He's on the home team, and he'll be trying to help them win, what's the alternative...to root for a loss?"

 

splitter

Perfectly said.

 

He is now a Brewer (or about to be), so I will now root for him

[JohnBriggs12]

Lohse's career numbers in Miller Park (If you are faint hearted stop reading now):

 

44 IP, 56 Hits, 34 Runs all earned, 7 HR, 15 BB. 25 K, 6.95 ERA, 1.614 Whip, .890 OPS against.

 

 

Good thing he's not pitching against us anymore, a top notch offense over the last several years. Those stats mean nothing.

 

Yeah they do Rob. His only good seasons were pitching in St. Louis. When he was with teams playing in hitter's parks, the Twins in the Metrodome, and the Reds in GAB, he wasn't very good.

[fondybrewfan]

Wolf was an OK signing; Suppan was horrendous. Aren't we basically paying Lohse the same contract that we gave Wolf? My money is on Lohse outperforming Wolf.

 

I hated this deal at first but it is warming on me. I am still not convinced we are a playoff team though. I don't think we have the most talent in the division but it seems rare that the talented team wins out. If the Brewers remain healthy for the most part they probably will be in the hunt for the playoffs.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Well said splitter

 

Plusses: This helps the team this year. This gives them room to move Peralta down to AAA and get him ready to take a spot if/when someone falters. It also gives them a little time to see if Rogers can find it. The contract isn't horrible. Let's do this comparison with Suppan...with Soup, Mark A was wining/dining him to get him over and had to throw in that 4th season to in a competitive bid. No one was biting on Lohse.

 

Negatives: It's so hard to flip a switch and root for guys that I've hated...but he's a Brewer so I'll adjust. Hate the draft pick, hate the 3rd year. Still think he's a mirage, but that's my uneducated bias for ex-Cardinals. I'm sure they'll regret the contract at some point...hopefully they can get enough value early like with ARam where they still win overall on the deal even when he drops off.

 

Overall I wouldn't have done it. Not a disaster and they have the payroll to do it. We lose the 17th pick, not a top 5. I still wouldn't have done it. I think it takes us from 79 wins to .500. I'd rather see what they have in the youngsters and adjust the plan in 2014. Maybe they felt with the TV money that would only get pricier next year.

[adambr2]

Jeff Suppan and Randy Wolf didn't work out but it will totally be different with Kyle Lohse

 

Signed, crazy people

 

But again Lohse is a better pitcher than either of these guys were when we signed them. You are also fooling yourself if you think Wolf didn't work out. I hate that we signed a 34 year old to 3 years, I hate giving up a pick. I don't disagree with those points at all. But at least be honest about the past.

 

Wolf worked out for 2 years, and was a disaster the 3rd.

 

"Worked out" is obviously subjective, but any situation in which you have to release a guy before his contract is up and eat a ton of dead money is hard to grade as a win, IMO.

[EdgarDiazRocks]

This, folks, is what happens when you play for the "window" and have no long-term plan.

 

They could always make up the draft pick loss with Int'l signings....and before they install the worldwide draft.

They could do that with or without the 1st rounder. The two have almost nothing to do with one another.

 

Except budget wise. Last year with two 1st rounders and a supplemental they went very light on latin kids. The budget for player procurement probably in one pool.

[jerichoholicninja]

This is a joke. Honestly if the guy was any good don't you think that one of the big money teams would have signed him long ago?

 

This.

 

Lohse with the Cardinals:

809 IP

3.90 ERA

1.279 WHIP

9.3 H/9

2.2 BB/9

5.6 K/9

101 ERA+

 

Lohse the rest of his career:

1162 IP

4.82 ERA

1.432 WHIP

10.1 H/9

2.8 BB/9

5.7K/9

95 ERA+

 

Almost a run less of ERA, a .153 drop in WHIP, and almost 1 less hit per inning with the Cardinals while K and BB rates stay about the same. Lohse is a product of playing in St. Louis. He is a disaster waiting to happen.

[JohnBriggs12]

Jeff Suppan and Randy Wolf didn't work out but it will totally be different with Kyle Lohse

 

Signed, crazy people

 

But again Lohse is a better pitcher than either of these guys were when we signed them. You are also fooling yourself if you think Wolf didn't work out. I hate that we signed a 34 year old to 3 years, I hate giving up a pick. I don't disagree with those points at all. But at least be honest about the past.

 

I don't understand how you can say that. Randy Wolf was coming off a year very similar to Lohse's 2012, 214 IP vs. 211 for Lohse, 3.23 ERA for Wolf to 2.86 for Lohse, 1.101 WHIP for Wolf to 1.091 for Lohse. Wolf was 33. Lohse is 34. They are both finesse pitchers. As for Suppan, at ages 28-30, Suppan was the number 1 most similar pitcher to Lohse according to baseball reference.

[MVP2110]

This is a joke. Honestly if the guy was any good don't you think that one of the big money teams would have signed him long ago?

 

This.

 

Lohse with the Cardinals:

809 IP

3.90 ERA

1.279 WHIP

9.3 H/9

2.2 BB/9

5.6 K/9

101 ERA+

 

Lohse the rest of his career:

1162 IP

4.82 ERA

1.432 WHIP

10.1 H/9

2.8 BB/9

5.7K/9

95 ERA+

 

Almost a run less of ERA, a .153 drop in WHIP, and almost 1 less hit per inning with the Cardinals while K and BB rates stay about the same. Lohse is a product of playing in St. Louis. He is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

I'll give you this, Lohse was really helped by playing in St. Louis, however I think it has more to do with that they taught him that killer sinker he has, so he can rely on that instead of his average fastball.

[JohnBriggs12]

This is a joke. Honestly if the guy was any good don't you think that one of the big money teams would have signed him long ago?

 

This.

 

Lohse with the Cardinals:

809 IP

3.90 ERA

1.279 WHIP

9.3 H/9

2.2 BB/9

5.6 K/9

101 ERA+

 

Lohse the rest of his career:

1162 IP

4.82 ERA

1.432 WHIP

10.1 H/9

2.8 BB/9

5.7K/9

95 ERA+

 

Almost a run less of ERA, a .153 drop in WHIP, and almost 1 less hit per inning with the Cardinals while K and BB rates stay about the same. Lohse is a product of playing in St. Louis. He is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

I'll give you this, Lohse was really helped by playing in St. Louis, however I think it has more to do with that they taught him that killer sinker he has, so he can rely on that instead of his average fastball.

 

Eh, I think Yadier Molina deserves most of the credit. He helped make Hiram Burgos a household name in Puerto Rico.

[Invader3K]

I really dislike the move, bordering on hating it. If it wasn't for losing the draft pick, I could probably accept it, but it sucks given the state of the Brewers' minor league system. If we were signing a superstar and losing the pick, fine, but we're not.

 

I do think Lohse will be more Randy Wolf than Jeff Suppan, and that part is fine. The contract isn't a crippler either if he totally sucks. I just don't like the fact that the Brewers are losing their first round pick for a guy who has only really been good his past two seasons, and is 34 years old.

 

That said he's a Brewer and I'll cheer for him until he warrants otherwise.

[TooLiveBrew]

Except budget wise. Last year with two 1st rounders and a supplemental they went very light on latin kids. The budget for player procurement probably in one pool.

The budget angle is precisely why I said "almost"

 

If they're out of it at the trading deadline either of the next two years, they can move him for something.

Sounds good in theory but how likely is that to really happen?

People literally said the exact same thing about Suppan & Wolf.

[liveforoctober]

This is a joke. Honestly if the guy was any good don't you think that one of the big money teams would have signed him long ago?

 

This.

 

Lohse with the Cardinals:

809 IP

3.90 ERA

1.279 WHIP

9.3 H/9

2.2 BB/9

5.6 K/9

101 ERA+

 

Lohse the rest of his career:

1162 IP

4.82 ERA

1.432 WHIP

10.1 H/9

2.8 BB/9

5.7K/9

95 ERA+

 

Almost a run less of ERA, a .153 drop in WHIP, and almost 1 less hit per inning with the Cardinals while K and BB rates stay about the same. Lohse is a product of playing in St. Louis. He is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

You don't just go to St. Louis and learn how to go sub 3.00 with your ERA. Every struggling pitcher would be there otherwise. Did La Russa/Dave Duncan do incredible things? Yes. Did Lohse go 16-3 last year without either of them? Yes.

[splitterpfj]

MVP2110, that's really what this is going to be about. Either Lohse is a much better pitcher with the sinker, and we'll get that benefit, or he's a guy who's about to put up a 4.4 ERA, because he's not in St Louis.

 

I think his stats will be ok, I wouldn't expect him to be the guy he was the last two years, but I think he'll do a respectable job, the thing I'll worry about is injury. That's not based on anything I know about Lohse, it's a generalization for pitchers his age. If the arm holds up, this deal is probably one year too many, which is the price you pay for filling holes via free agency.

[JohnBriggs12]

The common denominator in St. Louis is Molina. Has been going back even to Suppan's success there.

[RobDeer 45]

Lohse's career numbers in Miller Park (If you are faint hearted stop reading now):

 

44 IP, 56 Hits, 34 Runs all earned, 7 HR, 15 BB. 25 K, 6.95 ERA, 1.614 Whip, .890 OPS against.

 

 

Good thing he's not pitching against us anymore, a top notch offense over the last several years. Those stats mean nothing.

 

Yeah they do Rob. His only good seasons were pitching in St. Louis. When he was with teams playing in hitter's parks, the Twins in the Metrodome, and the Reds in GAB, he wasn't very good.

 

Ok, hitters ball park makes sense, but those numbers will be skewed higher because he's pitching in a hitter's park vs one of the best offenses in the league. He's also on the road, which typically works a bit against pitchers. A lot of factors that can make those stats read anyway you want them. He had sub 4 ERA in both PHI and PIT with similar starts. Depending on the year, those fall in similar areas as Miller for hitters park ranks. Don't want to start an argument, just think that the offense you face at the park factors more in to the stats. He's a different pitcher now from what he was before.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Is Lohse the player to be named later in the Gomez contract? Maybe if we lump them together it will look a little better.