Braun, Biogenesis and the Whole Crazy Thing

[NievesNoNO]

Interesting stuff. I guess MLB fans can't have it both ways. We can't clamor for more testing and a cleaner game and then ridicule MLB and cry foul when one of our own is on the hot seat.

 

It does seem odd and counter productive for MLB to be so intent on suspending some it's own biggest and brightest employees but it also was fairly ridiculous to watch the home run record be broken by arguably one of the games biggest cheaters as MLB stood by and cheered.

[The stache]

The thing I am not understanding in all this is--how the hell could they suspend him for 100 games, which would be the penalty for a second infraction. If he won his appeal, does MLB now get to say "we're going after you again, and forget whatever happened before. We don't care if the independent arbiter said you were innocent. We say you were guilty, and so we're going to treat that first infraction as if we won the case."

 

Apparently arbitration is only binding in MLB's eyes if they win.

[SRB]

Not surprised. MLB is still furious that they lost in arbitration during the first Braun allegations, so they're going to do anything in their power to get back at him this time.

 

Worst part is they can have the flimsiest evidence in the world (and it sounds like they do...) but I'm guessing the public at large will believe them no matter what.

[burnzy24]

The thing I am not understanding in all this is--how the hell could they suspend him for 100 games, which would be the penalty for a second infraction. If he won his appeal, does MLB now get to say "we're going after you again, and forget whatever happened before. We don't care if the independent arbiter said you were innocent. We say you were guilty, and so we're going to treat that first infraction as if we won the case."

 

Apparently arbitration is only binding in MLB's eyes if they win.

 

I just read the CBA and I really don't know how they could. To suspend for a performance enhancing drug the agreement states they need to show use or possession of a banned substance. I don't see how lying about it equates use or possession. There is also a provision that allows the Commissioner to suspend someone for "just cause" for abusing prohibited substance but lying about it does not equate using a prohibited substance. I think they are threatening with 100 with the hopes that the players take the 50 without appealing.

[Funketown]

First off, I really don't care if Braun took anything. I'd give it a 95% chance that he was taking at least some banned substance, but that really doesn't matter. The fact that MLB is going after these guys in this way is just absurd. Personally, this type of garbage turns me off of Major League Baseball more than steroids.

 

But I have two questions which have probably been addressed before:

 

1) Given that Braun already won his appeal from the drug test at the end of the 2011 season, can MLB even attempt to suspend him again for what amounts to a similar time period? Or, in my dummy legal words, is there anything in the CBA that rules out this type of double jeapordy?

 

2) Braun has never been suspended for an infraction. So it should be a 50 game suspension, correct?

[narwhalattack]

This just reeks of corruption. MLB is just incredibly paranoid about PEDs, to the point where this has turned into a witch hunt.

 

At this rate the whole method might become almost Stalinist; any random fool would accuse a player of PEDs and the player would be gone automatically without a fair trial.

[Raw Biz]

The thing I am not understanding in all this is--how the hell could they suspend him for 100 games, which would be the penalty for a second infraction. If he won his appeal, does MLB now get to say "we're going after you again, and forget whatever happened before. We don't care if the independent arbiter said you were innocent. We say you were guilty, and so we're going to treat that first infraction as if we won the case."

 

Apparently arbitration is only binding in MLB's eyes if they win.

 

They will count one infraction as Bosch coming clean about everything. The second infraction would be Braun lying to them when questioned about it. No joke, that's what's being reported.

[coolcool]

ESPN doesn't have much journalistic credibility after the Duke Lacrosse debacle.

[brewmann04]

I guess the MLB going to get there wish and finally get Braun.

[ninja33]

I just read the CBA and I really don't know how they could. To suspend for a performance enhancing drug the agreement states they need to show use or possession of a banned substance. I don't see how lying about it equates use or possession. There is also a provision that allows the Commissioner to suspend someone for "just cause" for abusing prohibited substance but lying about it does not equate using a prohibited substance. I think they are threatening with 100 with the hopes that the players take the 50 without appealing.

 

That's exactly what they did to a minor leaguer who didn't have the MLBPA backing him/the means for an appeals process. good people!

[The stache]

First off, I really don't care if Braun took anything. I'd give it a 95% chance that he was taking at least some banned substance, but that really doesn't matter. The fact that MLB is going after these guys in this way is just absurd. Personally, this type of garbage turns me off of Major League Baseball more than steroids.

 

But I have two questions which have probably been addressed before:

 

1) Given that Braun already won his appeal from the drug test at the end of the 2011 season, can MLB even attempt to suspend him again for what amounts to a similar time period? Or, in my dummy legal words, is there anything in the CBA that rules out this type of double jeapordy?

 

2) Braun has never been suspended for an infraction. So it should be a 50 game suspension, correct?

 

I'm almost certain that Braun had something illegal, per MLB's rules, in his substance. But it wasn't a PED, and that much has been made clear. And if it's not a PED, he's not a cheater, and that, too, should be made public.

 

It sucks that MLB and their little lap dog ESPN are able to try this out in public while Braun has to keep his mouth shut. If he is suspended, and has nothing else to worry about, I hope Ryan Braun spills the beans. Let the skeleton out of the closet, and let MLB be exposed for the petty, vindictive idiots they are.

[trwi7]

They will count one infraction as Bosch coming clean about everything. The second infraction would be Braun lying to them when questioned about it. No joke, that's what's being reported.

 

Even if MLB wins in getting the suspensions, I see no way they win in this.

[narwhalattack]

They will count one infraction as Bosch coming clean about everything. The second infraction would be Braun lying to them when questioned about it. No joke, that's what's being reported.

 

Even if MLB wins in getting the suspensions, I see no way they win in this.

 

It's just like war; in the end, no one wins.

[SRB]

I just read the CBA and I really don't know how they could. To suspend for a performance enhancing drug the agreement states they need to show use or possession of a banned substance. I don't see how lying about it equates use or possession. There is also a provision that allows the Commissioner to suspend someone for "just cause" for abusing prohibited substance but lying about it does not equate using a prohibited substance. I think they are threatening with 100 with the hopes that the players take the 50 without appealing.

 

There is also an explicit provision that "Players shall not be subjected to multiple disciplines as a result of the same use of a Prohibited Substance." Just reading through the JDA, I'm not even sure how strong their case is for suspending a player without an actual positive test (as opposed to evidence of mere purchase/possession).

 

MLBPA is not going to let 10+ star players get suspended for 100 games... No chance. This is just grandstanding by MLB to pretend that they are tough on drugs.

[pebadger]

Just reading through the JDA, I'm not even sure how strong their case is for suspending a player without an actual positive test (as opposed to evidence of mere purchase/possession).

 

 

This is what is known in the business of PED enforcement as a non-analytical positive. It essentially means that the authorities can't prove that anything was done through testing, so they have to rely on the statements of witnesses or other means to support their case. Before a jury and in a world of a presumption of innocence with a high burden of proof on the party bringing the case, this would rarely fly. Before what are essentially rigged arbitration panels where a 2-1 verdict based on the panel members being "comfortable" with their ruling results in a "conviction", this works with regularity.

[SRB]

This is what is known in the business of PED enforcement as a non-analytical positive. It essentially means that the authorities can't prove that anything was done through testing, so they have to rely on the statements of witnesses or other means to support their case. Before a jury and in a world of a presumption of innocence with a high burden of proof on the party bringing the case, this would rarely fly. Before what are essentially rigged arbitration panels where a 2-1 verdict based on the panel members being "comfortable" with their ruling, this works with regularity.

 

Against members of the MLBPA?

[RobDeer 45]

Why are some saying Braun for sure didnt do anything illegal? Did I miss something? Next, I think some people are blindly backing Braun, which I guess is totally up to you, but just remember all the bold angry statements you're making if the house of cards tumbles. You may not agree with how MLB is going about this because one of our stars is in the mix, but they are trying to take cheating out of the game. Be careful what you are defending. I just think we don't know enough and as I've stated before, where there is smoke there is fire. Lets just see where this all goes.

[brewcrewdue80]

The story reads it could go down if the weeks ahead. I read in to that as a Month's time. So when MLB goes through with their 100game suspensions, Braun will be sitting not only the rest of the season but likely 30 or more games in to next season.

 

As Stache said,

 

I hope Braun takes this imposed guilty judgement thrust on him and spills all the details of his appeals case.

 

And FWIW, maybe there's a Strike by the PA due to how this all went down.

 

In which case the Brewers future problems over the next 2 years may be brighter because of this. Since we wont actually be watching them play baseball.

[owbc]

At this point, I'm hoping for a 50 game suspension and a confession. There's no way he gets 100 games, but he's probably not going to win the appeal again either. If he continues to maintain his innocence, the cloud is going to remain. There's just too much circumstantial evidence for me to believe that he never used PEDs. I won't hold it against him though when it's time to move on.

 

As for the future of the Brewers franchise, it can't really get much uglier than this. It's basically 1994 again. I just hope it doesn't take 14 more years to turn it around this time.

[xisxisxis]

If I was running the MLBPA I would authorize a strike vote and ask all 30 team reps to conduct a vote. See if MLB wants to risk a work stoppage for their vendetta...

[brewcrewdue80]

Why are some saying Braun for sure didnt do anything illegal? Did I miss something? Next, I think some people are blindly backing Braun, which I guess is totally up to you, but just remember all the bold angry statements you're making if the house of cards tumbles. You may not agree with how MLB is going about this because one of our stars is in the mix, but they are trying to take cheating out of the game. Be careful what you are defending. I just think we don't know enough and as I've stated before, where there is smoke there is fire. Lets just see where this all goes.

 

 

You're right about Supporting Braun. I'm backing him. I have to. Otherwise, the outcome is this.

 

Braun's ability from day 1 to now shows no significant increase in skills. So, the answer is either he's cheated since he was in High School. Or, he cheated for no friggin' reason! He got nothing gained out of it! Maybe random occurences of ability to play through injury? But in terms of stats/skills. What did he gain if he cheated?

 

So, I back him and support him in this. Because the saddest thing about a cheater, is a cheater who gained nothing from cheating!

[lcbj68c]

How could the suspensions "go down" within a few weeks?

 

Wouldn't that mean that the players have already been informed and are currently in the appeals process...since suspensions can't be announced per the JDA until the appeals have been ruled upon?

[fondybrewfan]

I don't really care anymore.

 

Braun was the only one that Bosch previously addressed with the media and at that time he backed Braun's story. So I guess it is plausible that Bosch might repeat that again while also proving the guilt of the other guys. Yeah it is probably unlikely but if Bosh continues to back up Braun it would hilarious to see 20 other guys suspended but not Braun

 

Again that probably won't happen and I am fully prepared to see Braun sit for a long time. This season is lost anyways; might as well go for a top 5 pick next year. At least this time it will be Braun + 20 other guys so the media outrage won't simply be trying to bury Braun.

[lcbj68c]

At least this time it will be Braun + 20 other guys so the media outrage won't simply be trying to bury Braun.

 

 

That can't be true...the headline already is "A-Rod, Braun, +18 others..."

[homer]

Maybe Braun will be forced to tell the secret story about why he got busted in the first place.