Braun, Biogenesis and the Whole Crazy Thing

[bylo tesi me]

I'm no lawyer, but I believe Anthony Bosch isn't being investigated for supplying PED's to athletes, the Fed's are investigating him for Fraud and practicing medicine without a license. The Fed's don't appear all that interested in the PED angle. MLB and the media are the only interested party. MLB is suing Anthony Bosch, a frivolous lawsuit that I think even MLB knows it's unlikely to win. However, I believe it's the only way for MLB's lawyers to gather evidence and depose witnesses for their investigation.

Given all that, I think it's reasonable to presume if he had sold PED's to Braun, He certainly wouldn't comment publicly confirming or denying Braun's guilt, or even that he had any dealings of any kind with Braun or his legal team at all.

And just for the record, I don't care one way or the other as far as Braun's guilt or innocence. I just dislike the way this story has played out.

[Patrick425]

Your argument in this thread seems kind of strange to me, given that this whole case is based on notes written by this same guy whom you're now saying we shouldn't trust. If his word is absolutely meaningless, then why are we even having this conversation? I expect your answer might be that the notes are reliable documentary evidence of his state of mind at the time they were written. That may or may not be right, but if it is, one could defend the value of this latest statement the same way. It isn't self-serving; the guy has nothing to gain by throwing Braun a lifeline. It's basically the same kind of statement as the original notes: a gratuitous, apparently unmotivated expression in the ordinary course of business and/or conversation.

 

I would assume that if I told you I thought Bernie Madoff was a lying sleezeball that you would agree. Does that mean that evidence that he created at one point or another should not be held against him?

 

I think some of you need to forget you are Brewer fans for just one minute. The original argument was that ESPN should be putting this story out there more prominently. I disagree and think, if anything, this story possibly hurts Braun's case more than helps it. Just look at the headline:

 

Bosch says PED reports inaccurate

 

Not nearly on the same level of seriousness, but it's bascially the same as a headline that states:

 

Boston bomber's dad claims his son is innocent

 

I never heard or saw Tony Bosch before this interview. Against all odds, I was hoping to see someone who exuded some sort of dignity and integrity. Unfortunately, I saw basically what I expected to see. I think most people outside of Brewer fans would watch this video and think, wow, what a lying piece of scum, I think everyone on that piece of paper is guilty.

[Ennder]

Ennder, I feel like we are having a bit of a circular argument here. As I said before, he had nothing to gain and something to lose by saying anything that was "anti-player" so he didn't.

 

Understand that I am not stating that ESPN's original reporting of this story or them breaking the news about Braun's failed test was great journalism. There is just nothing about this current story that makes me feel any better or worse about Braun's innocence or guilt. It's a completely meaningless story. Even if ESPN put this story front and center and made a big deal out of it, I don't think it would do anything at all to change anyone's mind about Braun.

 

I agree with this completely, it doesn't change the point that ESPN has a pretty clear agenda when they are reporting the news. It isn't about wanting to change peoples opinion about Braun, it is about disliking ESPN and this just being another in a long line of reasons for it. Mainstream media in general is like this so I guess I shouldn't expect ESPN to be any different. There are plenty of reasons to doubt that Braun used steroids only we never get to see those in mainstream media, you have to go online and find things like Will Carrol's report etc to get it.

[Patrick425]

There are plenty of reasons to doubt that Braun used steroids only we never get to see those in mainstream media, you have to go online and find things like Will Carrol's report etc to get it.

 

I agree and this story is not one of those reasons. When I first saw this story posted in this thread, I was hopeful. Having never seen or heard Bosch speak I was even hopeful in regards to the headline of the story. Then, unfortunately, I watched the video of the interview and all hope faded.

 

It's kind of like this for me. If I gave you these four statements...

 

1) The first President of the U.S.A. was Richard Nixon

2) 2+2 = 7

3) Bananas are purple

4) I got a hole-in-one while golfing yesterday

 

Would you believe the 4th statement? It could very well be true, but if you take a strawberry and wrap it in dog crap..sorry, it's going to taste like dog crap. Somehow I feel like some of you are still able to taste the strawberry in this most recent dog crap of a story. My hat is off to your unwavering faith in Braun. I don't know if Braun is guilty or innocent when it comes to taking PEDs, but this story certainly did nothing to help me believe he is innocent.

[burnzy24]

The most imporatant part of this has been overlooked but was brought up by Will Carroll on twitter

 

Amazing how facts that go against the storyline get ignored. Looks like Bosch backing Braun's story despite saying he's owed money still.

 

So actually Bosch has no reason to go with Braun's story whatsoever while actually having motivation to spite Braun. Unless, as someone previously mentioned, he was paid off by Braun to do so. However, considering how Bosch has handed his paperwork and invoices in the past, I highly doubt Braun's team is dumb enough to approach Bosch for something like that.

 

Edit: Wow actual coverage on this angle by the NY Daily news

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/bosch-pumps-braun-defense-article-1.1330861

[lcbj68c]

"My hat is off to your unwavering faith in Braun. I don't know if Braun is guilty or innocent when it comes to taking PEDs, but this story certainly did nothing to help me believe he is innocent."

 

I don't think it does either. But that's not the point of the last two pages.

 

But what I would like is for ESPN to report the substantial news in that the accused made a bold statement to separate Ryan Braun from the players under his care. That is significant. Clearly he hasn't lived under a rock. Clearly he has access to media reports about his situation. The fact that he specifically would talk about Braun is an indicator of something? What is it, I don't know. I don't trust Bosch enough to know. But I do know this...ESPN and other media outlets, presumably by the orders of MLB have specifically taken Ryan Braun's name through the mud every step of the way despite evidence to the contrary. They had yet another chance to report facts, make said facts meaningful, in a neutral way at a minimum and failed to do so. I think that is all anybody cares about...guilt or innocence won't be proven until another positive test or a lifetime of clean tests.

[Patrick425]

Amazing how facts that go against the storyline get ignored. Looks like Bosch backing Braun's story despite saying he's owed money still.

 

There is actually no confirmation anywhere that Braun owes him money, unless you want to go by the papers that show his name hand written with an amount next to it and assume that this represents money currently owed to Bosch. In which case you also believe all the media stories that you are also criticizing.

 

 

I don't think it does either. But that's not the point of the last two pages.

 

Then what is the point? Seems that everyone is angry that ESPN has jumped to conclusions on Bruan's guilt because of the stories they have put out there. They want other points of view in the main street media (such as Will Carroll). Why? I'm assuming to help change the public perception about Braun. I can't think of another reason. So, yes, that is the point of the last two pages.

[DHonks]

While the lab may not have been a legitimate clinic that athletes should have been visiting, let's keep in mind that many likely thought these were natural or non-synthetic drugs. It's obvious that this place likely have a good reputation among athletes. While it might seem odd for us that they went there (over a certified, reputable place), most athletes I've met are not the kind to do research before buying something, tending instead to go by what people say.

[pebadger]

I think Bosch's statement holds water because he first says"

 

Asked about players under his care, Bosch cut in and said, "Allegedly under my care. If you are going to ask me about baseball players, I have no comment on any baseball players or anybody else associated with baseball players."

 

If Braun were one of the players "allegedly under [his] care" then why would he single him out on the next breath? There are two groups of people, those under his care, and Braun, who was not under his care but whose legal team contacted him with questions.

 

Makes sense to me, and this is from someone who said on this site that I was sick of Braun when these new allegations broke.

 

This ^^^.

 

It's fair to question this guy's credibility. You can read his silence on teh bigger issue however your own leaning leads you to. The fact that he mentions Braun's legal team, as an exception to his general silence means something to me. Now, does that exclude the possibility that Braun was also a general client of his, or that Braun may also have other involvement with Biogensis? No it doesn't. But it does corroborate what Braun and his reps have said regarding at least one point of contact between the two.

 

Secondly, this reporting is different than much of the previous reporting on the issue. It's direct statements from a principal party in the case. It's not speculation or third-hand information from a guy who knows a guy who knows an unnamed source.

[ELCABALLO45]

The only way this goes away is if MLB comes out and says "Our bad, he didn't take steroids".

 

And then some idiot people would still say "WELL SELIG IS RUNNING BASEBALL, OF COURSE THEY SAY THAT!".

 

It's never going to go away. Ever.

[MVP2110]

Don't know if this sways anything but there is this article nowhttp://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/ryan-brauns-account-supported-by-biogenesis-director-969pg3q-205509821.html

[lcbj68c]

Don't know if this sways anything but there is this article nowhttp://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/ryan-brauns-account-supported-by-biogenesis-director-969pg3q-205509821.html

 

Did JSONLINE break the news and drag Braun through the mud? No...it was OTL. OTL is the one who needs to be accountable and report it. A JSONLINE news article isn't going to have any sway on public opinion in the USA.

[Nottso]

Working link:

 

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/ryan-brauns-account-supported-by-biogenesis-director-969pg3q-205509821.html

[gregmag]

I think some of you need to forget you are Brewer fans for just one minute. The original argument was that ESPN should be putting this story out there more prominently. I disagree and think, if anything, this story possibly hurts Braun's case more than helps it. Just look at the headline:

 

Bosch says PED reports inaccurate

 

Not nearly on the same level of seriousness, but it's bascially the same as a headline that states:

 

Boston bomber's dad claims his son is innocent

 

I never heard or saw Tony Bosch before this interview. Against all odds, I was hoping to see someone who exuded some sort of dignity and integrity. Unfortunately, I saw basically what I expected to see. I think most people outside of Brewer fans would watch this video and think, wow, what a lying piece of scum, I think everyone on that piece of paper is guilty.

Patrick, I'm really getting tired of your insinuations that everyone who disagrees with you is simply blinkered by bias. I made a rational argument; you offered, IMHO, a fairly vacant response that's on a par with, IMHO, your other carelessly reasoned posts in this thread. I don't disagree with you because I'm a Brewers fan; I've lived for a few years, and I've had a lot of experience and training in filtering out bias. I disagree with you because, based on the best thinking I can do, I believe you're more than likely wrong. I'm not ascribing your views to, say, a narcissistic desire for attention; I respect you as an intelligent peer, and so I assume your views are honestly and sincerely held. Please do me the favor of not ascribing my contrary views to petty bias.

[Patrick425]

Fair enough gregmag.

 

I guess my question to you and others who believe Braun is innocent in regards to taking PEDs would be how sure are you? Are you 100% sure? 90%? 60%? How much money would you put on it? Are you at all skeptical about this?

 

The answer for me was that if I had to bet one way or another, I would bet on him being guilty, but I would not bet the house. In fact, probably not more than $50. I would not be willing to bet anything on his innocence, unless I got some pretty good odds. There are good arguments on both sides, but for me, there is way too much smoke not to believe that there may be a fire somewhere. I hope that's not correct. Unfortunately for Braun, if he is innocent, there is virtually no way for him to prove it.

 

I guess if time goes by (4-6 years or more) without any further connections of Braun to PEDs I'll become more of a believer of his innocence.

[xisxisxis]

Unfortunately for Braun, if he is innocent, there is virtually no way for him to prove it.

 

So your expectation is that Braun has to prove his innocence? I don't know what I would have to be smoking to turn around Western culture that an accused has to prove their innocence. Missing in the smoke screens is that Braun doesn't have to prove anything, he hasn't been shown to be guilty of anything and I am happy to wait it out for actual data and facts that *prove* his guilt. What I believe is irrelevant, what I know is all that matters. Sure, any player could be taking banned substances, but personally won't assume just because many do that ALL do....

[Patrick425]

Unfortunately for Braun, if he is innocent, there is virtually no way for him to prove it.

 

So your expectation is that Braun has to prove his innocence? I don't know what I would have to be smoking to turn around Western culture that an accused has to prove their innocence. Missing in the smoke screens is that Braun doesn't have to prove anything, he hasn't been shown to be guilty of anything and I am happy to wait it out for actual data and facts that *prove* his guilt. What I believe is irrelevant, what I know is all that matters. Sure, any player could be taking banned substances, but personally won't assume just because many do that ALL do....

 

I don't know that it's my "expectation". I said that it was unfortunate that he pretty much has to prove his innocence in the eyes of the public.

 

As I stated, there are valid arguments on both sides. However, I don't agree that just because someone is found not guilty in the court of law that they are innocent without a doubt (see OJ Simpson). If they have video evidence of someone killing another person, they find the murder weapon in his/her possession with his/her finger prints on it, but this person walks because someone made an error in booking him or someone forgot to read him his Miranda rights does that make that person innocent?

 

Unfortunately, whether you like it or not, this is how the majority of the public views the Braun situation....that he got off on a technicality.

[Ennder]

As I stated, there are valid arguments on both sides. However, I don't agree that just because someone is found not guilty in the court of law that they are innocent without a doubt (see OJ Simpson). If they have video evidence of someone killing another person, they find the murder weapon in his/her possession with his/her finger prints on it, but this person walks because someone made an error in booking him or someone forgot to read him his Miranda rights does that make that person innocent?

 

No but this is exactly how ESPN is trying to spin the Braun appeal when for all we know it was more like they had DNA evidence but it wasn't handled properly so it was inconclusive. Multiple sources have said they were able to recreate false positives by not storing samples properly and we know for a fact that the samples weren't stored properly. That isn't getting off on a technicality that is getting off because the only proof they had was tainted.

 

Gun to my head I'm going to assume he is guilty because of the Miami connection and the fact a lot of players use, I just think the way the media has handled the 'facts' of this case is criminal and slanderous.

[ELCABALLO45]

Just as proof to what I said earlier. This was said on a Cubs message board..

 

"He's gonna get away with this (bad word) again, isn't he?"

 

"Of course he will, he would probably get away with it if Bud Selig walked in on him applying steroid cream (there's a mental image for you)"

[ninja33]

welp. here we go again.

 

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9301536/major-league-baseball-suspend-20-players-including-alex-rodriguez-ryan-braun-part-miami-investigation

[owbc]

That should be enough time to heal his thumb.

[markedman5]

So much for Bosch backing up Braun's story..............

[Warning Track Power]

2013 may be the most disappointing and frustrating season I can remember as a fan. The most underachieving Brewer team I can remember, breaks seemingly never going their way and this has just really dampened my enthusiasm for the Brewers.

[davego]

Guess due process goes out the window.

[adambr2]

106 games left this season and it's a lost season anyway. May as well get it started now and go into next season with a fresh start.

 

On the other hand, who knows what sort of tactics -- bribes, intimidation, that MLB used to get the information they wanted. Not defending Braun, but I'm disgusted with Major League Baseball's agenda-like approach to this. If they approached fan concerns with the vigor that they approached this with, they would have changed the highly outdated blackout restrictions years ago.