Braun, Biogenesis and the Whole Crazy Thing

[torts]

Correct me if i am wrong, there were no public documents of Braun being linked to any PED's, but other players clearly had their names connected to specific PED's? Braun's name is just listed with $$ amounts, right?

 

actual evidence doesnt get leaked to OTL, if it did, do you think they'd be able to write 500 articles about this?

[splitterpfj]

Tweet from Will Carroll...

 

Just confirmed that @hangingsliders nailed it. MLB believes it has authority under just cause to suspend any amount, up to lifetime ban.

[torts]

Tweet from Will Carroll...

 

Just confirmed that @hangingsliders nailed it. MLB believes it has authority under just cause to suspend any amount, up to lifetime ban.

 

seven steps of just cause that MLB has to meet are:

 

Was the employee forewarned of the consequences of his or her actions?

Are the employer's rules reasonably related to business efficiency and performance the employer might reasonably expect from the employee?

Was an effort made before discharge to determine whether the employee was guilty as charged?

Was the investigation conducted fairly and objectively?

Did the employer obtain substantial evidence of the employee's guilt?

Were the rules applied fairly and without discrimination?

Was the degree of discipline reasonably related to the seriousness of the employee's offense and the employee's past record?

 

that last step will be what more than likely the MLBPA will focus on in every case of arbitration in proving that the MLB did not have just cause for the discipline, thus overturning the suspensions handed out.

[thebruce44]

Correct me if i am wrong, there were no public documents of Braun being linked to any PED's, but other players clearly had their names connected to specific PED's? Braun's name is just listed with $$ amounts, right?

 

actual evidence doesnt get leaked to OTL, if it did, do you think they'd be able to write 500 articles about this?

 

The initial evidence was actually acquired by ESPN/OTL IIRC.

 

And its my understanding that with that evidence, the initial reporters from the Miami New Times didn't include Braun's name as they didn't feel there was enough evidence. Things like "sources" and "truth" matter much less to ESPN, so Braun's name has been on all their headlines.

[thebruce44]

Was the employee forewarned of the consequences of his or her actions?

Was the investigation conducted fairly and objectively?

Did the employer obtain substantial evidence of the employee's guilt?

Were the rules applied fairly and without discrimination?

 

I'd say all of these could be argued by the Players Association, especially towards Braun.

 

The signed agreements specify punishment, so no, employees were not properly warned they would be treated differently than from their contracts.

 

The investigation was not conducted fairly and objectively. Can't be hard to prove that.

 

We don't know what evidence MLB has, but if it is what we have seen so far (notebook pages from a compromised witness) they don't have substantial evidence.

 

The rules were applied with strong discrimination towards ARod and Braun.

[Jose Cardenal1]

Bruce, you and many on the site go out of your way to attack the accusers (ESPN & MLB). This is the standard operating procedure for defense of a guilty person. Proclaim innocence, even if the story of innocence defies logic. Attack the accusers. Attack the system. What is more believable, the story that Braun's side has given or that he has been using PED's? You still need evidence, but the most believable is that Braun cheated.

 

Kind of ironic that in the end Braun would have been better off not fighting the initial 50 game suspension. Getting caught buying or owning PED's, is going to be a greater sin than using them. And of course every scandal is made worse by lying or attempting to cover up, which in the end I think we will all see is exactly what Braun has been doing.

[BrewCrewForever]

What I specifically meant, was I remember seeing a document where they had actual substances and dosage amounts listed with A-Rod and maybe others. But Braun was the only guy who really wasn’t linked to any substances, just dollar amounts.

 

Also, not that it matters one way or another, but it seems strange that this entire list is Hispanic players, save for Braun. Wishful thinking is he is the odd man out because he really was only associated due to his lawyers consulting Bosch during the appeal. But who knows at this point.

[Teatoe993]

So in theory, I could acquire some PEDs and send them to a MLB player via FedEx and he signs for the package not really knowing what it is. And then I write up some bogus receipt with his name and that he paid in cash. That would be enough to suspend a guy? Anyone have Molina's address?

 

I order vinyl records and stuff on the internet all the time. I'm constantly getting packages. And usually I don't not remember what or who, I had ordered from two weeks ago.

[TooLiveBrew]

Tweet from Will Carroll...

 

Just confirmed that @hangingsliders nailed it. MLB believes it has authority under just cause to suspend any amount, up to lifetime ban.

I have a hard time foreseeing how this winds up with anything aside from a long battle in court. MLB doesn't have much of an argument based on what the public currently knows.

[xisxisxis]

I have a hard time foreseeing how this winds up with anything aside from a long battle in court. MLB doesn't have much of an argument based on what the public currently knows.

 

But MLB is threatening the "death penalty" to scare players into copping a plea to lesser charges. Much of MLB security/enforcement is former law enforcement. They know this game very well and it is just simply scare tactics. Any player who wants to spend some money on a halfway decent lawyer will be told to ride it out as there is no way they have enough evidence to bring a serious case against anyone involved with Biogenesis. If MLB thinks they can actually move forward with some of these draconian measures without spending years in court and tens of millions of dollars in legal fees to lose then bud is as stupid as I think he is.

[danzig6767]

I have a hard time foreseeing how this winds up with anything aside from a long battle in court. MLB doesn't have much of an argument based on what the public currently knows.

 

But MLB is threatening the "death penalty" to scare players into copping a plea to lesser charges. Much of MLB security/enforcement is former law enforcement. They know this game very well and it is just simply scare tactics. Any player who wants to spend some money on a halfway decent lawyer will be told to ride it out as there is no way they have enough evidence to bring a serious case against anyone involved with Biogenesis.

 

I'm not familiar with the CBA on this

 

Can players and/or the union actually go into a regular courtroom to fight decisions rendered by MLB or instead once the arbiter rules, a decision is final and can't be challenged anywhere?

[markedman5]

My guess would be if you sent steroids to Molina and he signed for them he would immediatly notify the approriate agency and explain what happened......

Not sure what penalty would be involved if any if this was done......I'm obviously assuming that he would know what to do if this kind of prank was played on him....

 

Do you really believe that is what is happening with Braun or AROD?

 

So in theory, I could acquire some PEDs and send them to a MLB player via FedEx and he signs for the package not really knowing what it is. And then I write up some bogus receipt with his name and that he paid in cash. That would be enough to suspend a guy? Anyone have Molina's address?

 

I order vinyl records and stuff on the internet all the time. I'm constantly getting packages. And usually I don't not remember what or who, I had ordered from two weeks ago.

[Funketown]

I don't think anybody is suggesting (hopefully) any Braun conspiracy theories. The point is really that MLB is willing to jump on what seems to be fairly poor evidence from a really sketchy source.

 

Anybody on here want to chip in and start a fake website that can be traced back to Yadier Molina with a PED packaged as a useful supplement, and then ship him said supplement, only to have MLB find that Yadier oh so cleverly created a fake website as a desperate attempt to hide his guilt? Actually given that the NL Central actually has good teams these days, we probably need to make about 60-70 of these websites if we want any hope of competing in the next few years...

[dlk9s]

Also, not that it matters one way or another, but it seems strange that this entire list is Hispanic players, save for Braun. Wishful thinking is he is the odd man out because he really was only associated due to his lawyers consulting Bosch during the appeal. But who knows at this point.

 

Miami connection.

[torts]

this is not going to a court room, please do not associate this with juries or judges, this is being handled by arbitrators, who are not judges, and act as a jury of 3 in MLB/MLBPA grievance arbitration hearings.

[xisxisxis]

I'm not familiar with the CBA on this

 

I haven't read the entire CBA, but I do know there isn't a clause that outlines the punishment for a player whose name appears on a notepad of an alleged supplier of PEDs. As MLB tries to enforce vague clauses with punishments far in excess of stipulated infractions they open themselves up to legal challenges. If your employer decides to fire you or suspend you because your name and number are in the contacts of a convicted drug dealer, you can certainly sue them to overturn the decision and seek compensation. An employer, no matter what collective bargaining agreement is in place, is always open to legal challenges when they act or apply vague clauses in that agreement. There is certainly plenty of room to challenge the concept that the biogenesis documents are "evidence" that a player possessed PEDs. Braun's case is even more vague, because his name was only linked to an amount owed and no actual PED. Braun also has a case to go directly to court and ignore the arbitration process by pointing out he won't get a fair hearing because the last time he went to arbitration and won MLB fired the arbiter. Even though the MLBPA signed off on the current arbiter, it's clear what MLB could do if the current arbiter ruled in Braun's favor. I think a judge cold be swayed that Braun couldn't get a fair arbitration hearing. Other players might also be able to make the same argument. These issues are all pretty easy really if you are talking about a player failing a test. Once you move into uncharted territory in the CBA, there are plenty of ways for a player to operate outside the arbitration process and take this to a court.

[thebruce44]

Bruce, you and many on the site go out of your way to attack the accusers (ESPN & MLB). This is the standard operating procedure for defense of a guilty person. Proclaim innocence, even if the story of innocence defies logic. Attack the accusers. Attack the system. What is more believable, the story that Braun's side has given or that he has been using PED's? You still need evidence, but the most believable is that Braun cheated.

 

Kind of ironic that in the end Braun would have been better off not fighting the initial 50 game suspension. Getting caught buying or owning PED's, is going to be a greater sin than using them. And of course every scandal is made worse by lying or attempting to cover up, which in the end I think we will all see is exactly what Braun has been doing.

 

Ok, your version of logic is different than mine. I also choose to put the burden of proof on the accuser and believe people are innocent until proven guilty. Agree to disagree.

[JackNicholson1974]

Lifetime Ban --> full rebuild this offseason, compete 2016.

[markedman5]

http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/9488348/michael-weiner-mlbpa-head-says-union-protect-ped-users?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium

[brwrsfan]

We don't know what they've gotten behind close doors that hasn't been leaked yet, but none of the evidence that is public knowledge could be considered "overwelming" or even convincing IMO.

 

My guess is he's referring to A-Rod here, as he seems to have the most against him, including maybe trying to buy documents.

[TooLiveBrew]

So can anyone with actual legal knowledge explain the case MLB would have against Braun at this point? So far, the only facts we know are that MLB saw a failed test, Braun appealed, & the ruling went in his favor.

[JimH5]

The way Michael Weiner has been working through his medical issues is really remarkable. It is quite possible that these are his last living days, and he is still on task, still in the public eye.

 

We should all be so heroic.

[torts]

So can anyone with actual legal knowledge explain the case MLB would have against Braun at this point? So far, the only facts we know are that MLB saw a failed test, Braun appealed, & the ruling went in his favor.

 

no, not really, there are no actual facts known, just speculation as to what facts MLB might/might not have.

[brwrsfan]

Can MLB even use his prior test in this case? The arbitrator ruled his sample wasn't handled properly, making that entire test invalid - I take that to mean it never happened and can't/shouldn't be used against him in any other cases going forward.

[TooLiveBrew]

So can anyone with actual legal knowledge explain the case MLB would have against Braun at this point? So far, the only facts we know are that MLB saw a failed test, Braun appealed, & the ruling went in his favor.

 

no, not really, there are no actual facts known, just speculation as to what facts MLB might/might not have.

That's what I thought, but the discussion in this thread has gotten so far beyond that that I'd started to assume I might've missed something tangible.