Braun, Biogenesis and the Whole Crazy Thing

[brewmann04]

IT unreal what MLB can get away with and i hope they get there just desert.

[brewmann04]

I thought The NFL was a Joke being run by their Commissioner but MLB is really looking terrible in regards to all this.They are doing what ever they want with no regard for procedure.

[jerichoholicninja]

MLB is also interviewing Porter Fischer, the former Biogenesis employee who is responsible for leaking Biogenesis founder Tony Bosch's notebooks and records to the Miami New Times. MLB has reportedly interviewed Fischer three times now in an attempt to stockpile evidence. Heyman reminds that there are varying degrees of mentions in Fischer's documents; for example, Rodriguez's name allegedly appears alongside mentions of specific PEDs, while Braun's name only appears next to dollar amounts.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/06/suspensions-likely-in-biogenesis-case.html

 

Interesting tidbit there that I bolded. If it is true that Braun's name can't be connect to PED's but still connected to the clinic, does MLB think they can really get away with suspending him?

[Outlander]

I think they still have a chance to suspend if the documents are dated before his failed test but if it is after he could still use the consulting story. If MLB could somehow show a connection before the drug test I would finally get off the fence and say that Braun took something. If not then there will always be doubts in my mind.

[torts]

MLB is also interviewing Porter Fischer, the former Biogenesis employee who is responsible for leaking Biogenesis founder Tony Bosch's notebooks and records to the Miami New Times. MLB has reportedly interviewed Fischer three times now in an attempt to stockpile evidence. Heyman reminds that there are varying degrees of mentions in Fischer's documents; for example, Rodriguez's name allegedly appears alongside mentions of specific PEDs, while Braun's name only appears next to dollar amounts.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/06/suspensions-likely-in-biogenesis-case.html

 

Interesting tidbit there that I bolded. If it is true that Braun's name can't be connect to PED's but still connected to the clinic, does MLB think they can really get away with suspending him?

 

you should read this thread from the start, that has been debated some already in better detail than what i'll say.

 

Tested positive or otherwise violates the program by use or possession of a performance enhancing drug will be subject to penalty. so they dont have to prove that he USED PED's, they just have to show that Braun, and his money records in question, are connected to possession of PED's.

[brwrsfan]

None of the documents that have been released had any dates on them as far as I'm aware.

 

If all they have are dollar amounts (at least one of which says 20-30k) and the recorded Bosch statement stating Braun used him for legal advice (despite what he may tell MLB, he is recorded saying this), I just don't see how they can suspend him - and if they do, how that would ever hold up.

 

ARod on the other hand is probably screwed.

[thebruce44]

MLB is also interviewing Porter Fischer, the former Biogenesis employee who is responsible for leaking Biogenesis founder Tony Bosch's notebooks and records to the Miami New Times. MLB has reportedly interviewed Fischer three times now in an attempt to stockpile evidence. Heyman reminds that there are varying degrees of mentions in Fischer's documents; for example, Rodriguez's name allegedly appears alongside mentions of specific PEDs, while Braun's name only appears next to dollar amounts.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/06/suspensions-likely-in-biogenesis-case.html

 

Interesting tidbit there that I bolded. If it is true that Braun's name can't be connect to PED's but still connected to the clinic, does MLB think they can really get away with suspending him?

 

you should read this thread from the start, that has been debated some already in better detail than what i'll say.

 

Tested positive or otherwise violates the program by use or possession of a performance enhancing drug will be subject to penalty. so they dont have to prove that he USED PED's, they just have to show that Braun, and his money records in question, are connected to possession of PED's.

 

That's not what he was asking. The question is how far removed from actual possession (since they have no actual way to prove he was in possession of PEDs) will MLB go before they admit they don't have a case.

 

Personally, I think they suspend Braun based off whatever they can get fully knowing it will be laughed out of any real court because their true goal now is to publicly shame Braun while looking tough on drugs.

[brwrsfan]

I go back and forth on that. On the one hand, they want to make Braun and any others look bad.

 

On the other hand, if they suspend Braun and others and it's made public and the cases get dismissed because there is no evidence...that's going to make MLB look really stupid (again). I think they'll suspend any that they believe might actually uphold. And even those will be tough IMO.

[thebruce44]

I go back and forth on that. On the one hand, they want to make Braun and any others look bad.

 

On the other hand, if they suspend Braun and others and it's made public and the cases get dismissed because there is no evidence...that's going to make MLB look really stupid (again). I think they'll suspend any that they believe might actually uphold. And even those will be tough IMO.

 

MLB would look foolish to the people who actually know whats going on. To the unfortunately vast majority, they will look like they are trying and Braun is a cheater who got away with it again.

 

Source: I live in a city other than Milwaukee and go to a lot of baseball games and bars.

[jerichoholicninja]

MLB is also interviewing Porter Fischer, the former Biogenesis employee who is responsible for leaking Biogenesis founder Tony Bosch's notebooks and records to the Miami New Times. MLB has reportedly interviewed Fischer three times now in an attempt to stockpile evidence. Heyman reminds that there are varying degrees of mentions in Fischer's documents; for example, Rodriguez's name allegedly appears alongside mentions of specific PEDs, while Braun's name only appears next to dollar amounts.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/06/suspensions-likely-in-biogenesis-case.html

 

Interesting tidbit there that I bolded. If it is true that Braun's name can't be connect to PED's but still connected to the clinic, does MLB think they can really get away with suspending him?

 

you should read this thread from the start, that has been debated some already in better detail than what i'll say.

 

Tested positive or otherwise violates the program by use or possession of a performance enhancing drug will be subject to penalty. so they dont have to prove that he USED PED's, they just have to show that Braun, and his money records in question, are connected to possession of PED's.

 

Your last sentence is the point I was trying to make. According to the report I posted Braun's name is only connected to owing money, not PED's. Yes, it would make sense that if he owes money to a guy selling PED's then he probably was buying, but Braun or his lawyer (can't remember which) has already said we paid him for consulting. If there is no evidence to connect Braun to buying PED's, only to owing money, then there shouldn't be any grounds for suspending him.

[pebadger]

"they have yet to talk to Ryan Braun or Alex Rodriguez, seemingly because they want to gather enough evidence before confronting them"

 

So lets see the lesser "targets" are already being "interviewed"? Does that mean they actually have evidence against them but are having trouble finding enough evidence to confront their main target? Or does it mean their main targets are being treated differently? Either way, this is very fishy.

 

Obviously MLB has leaked this info to keep the story in the news. Once again, no news has been broken but they still get in shots at Braun nonetheless.

 

They are using the time tested method in all prosecutorial offices of trying to flip small fish to get big fish. They've already been leaning on minor leaguers (who have virtually no protections for their budding careers). If MLB is like any of the other drug prosecutors they will offer immunity or reduced penalties for guys who testify the way they want them to testify.

 

People can hold differing opinions on matters such as these. In a criminal prosecution at least the accused has very well-defined rights in terms of confronting such witnesses and their testimony and pointing out the bias inherent in such testimony. In the world of drug enforcement, there are no such real protections, and those protections that do exist are much less likely to be useful as the standards of proof and burdens of persuasion are very much on the side of the drug enforcers.

[brwrsfan]

I get the small fish for big fish...but realistically...do any of these players really know if the other players are using? Unless they physically saw them inject themselves or got treatment together, that's just pure hearsay.

[pebadger]

I get the small fish for big fish...but realistically...do any of these players really know if the other players are using? Unless they physically saw them inject themselves or got treatment together, that's just pure hearsay.

 

With very relaxed rules of evidence, innuendo and suppostition is probably good enough. I doubt MLB is going to get solid proof of actual use by anyone, except, ironically, from the small fish users who might admit that they did wrong. MLB will use that as proof of the general proposition that Biogenesis was a bad operation and that everyone associated with them is guilty. The most direct evidence will likely come from Bosch people stating they sold substances to players, if in fact they really did.

[brewmann04]

it been a while now we have a new whistleblower.

http://www.tmz.com/2013/07/01/major-league-baseball-steroids-biogenesis-whistleblower-alex-rodriguez-ryan-braun/

[TooLiveBrew]

TMZ? Not saying the report is false... but... TMZ.

[Hofbraunhaus]

If MLB pays Porter Fischer a consulting fee, will he write their name down on a piece of paper for money owed, thus making them guilty of using PEDs?

[brewmann04]

MLB is trying to use anyone to get Braun and unless this guy seen him use it this is another non issue.

[brwrsfan]

TMZ...not really buying it until someone actually confirms it. It's not on ESPN or CBS or anything at this point. Few odd things though....

 

So he contacted MLB with the info, yet they are still paying him a consulting fee? So they're more or less buying his testimony...of course it's going to be what they want.

 

Also, why does he have these documents in his personal possession and why is he just now coming forward?

 

And how dumb would a player have to be (yet alone 20-100 players) to actually have any paper trail or whatever to link them to illegal drugs?

[dlk9s]

TMZ may be in the trash news business, but they generally know what they're doing. I wouldn't be so quick to scoff.

 

Also, since when did this board put ESPN on the pedestal of elite reporting?

[azcheesehead]

TMZ may be in the trash news business, but they generally know what they're doing. I wouldn't be so quick to scoff.

 

Also, since when did this board put ESPN on the pedestal of elite reporting?

 

Yeah, isn't Aaron Rodgers in prison or something??

[TooLiveBrew]

TMZ may be in the trash news business, but they generally know what they're doing. I wouldn't be so quick to scoff.

 

Also, since when did this board put ESPN on the pedestal of elite reporting?

I don't hold ESPN in any higher regard than TMZ on this particular story.

[brwrsfan]

ESPN was just an example. I haven't seen ANY other sources aside from TMZ. Doesn't make it untrue, I'm just waiting for a slightly better source. That's all. ESPN reporting does suck, but this is something they would usually run with and blast all over the place and they haven't...yet.

[pretendastronaut]

Porter Fischer isn't a new whistleblower or just now coming forward; he's the original, accidental whistleblower.

 

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2013-06-20/news/mlb-steroids-alex-rodriguez/

[brwrsfan]

One again, Braun not mentioned in that article as someone that the Miami Sun Times feels is guilty. Here are some quotes I find particularily telling:

 

"Fischer's motives were simple. He believed he'd been cheated by the clinic's ow

 

"Owner, Tony Bosch, who the records indicated had sold performance-enhancing drugs to players including New York Yankees superstar Alex Rodriguez and the Toronto Blue Jays' All-Star MVP Melky Cabrera."

 

"MLB never seemed to grasp one key fact about Fischer: He didn't give a damn about their sport. In fact, other than A-Rod and Melky Cabrera, Fischer didn't even recognize a single ballplayer's name in Bosch's records until a New Times reporter began poring through them."

 

No mention of Braun in the first one. Now Braun isn't A-Rod but he was an MVP and he WAS implicated in steroid before, if his name was on the records for buying roids, you'd think he would recognize it.

 

Granted, this article is 2 weeks old, but it doesn't change anything. I don't see how he has any evidence, based on that article, that could contribute to anything. It seems that it's all just more hand written notebooks. Not only that, but who stole all the stuff from his car? That's a crazy story.

[Patrick425]

Granted, this article is 2 weeks old, but it doesn't change anything. I don't see how he has any evidence, based on that article, that could contribute to anything. It seems that it's all just more hand written notebooks. Not only that, but who stole all the stuff from his car? That's a crazy story.

 

I don't think pretendastronaut posted a link to the article as an example of "new evidence" that changes something. He posted it to show that Porter Fischer is not a "new whistle blower".

 

The new piece of "news" that recently came up is the TMZ article in post #364.