Braun, Biogenesis and the Whole Crazy Thing

[thebruce44]

That deadspin article previously linked is really well done. I hope everyone reads it instead of using sensationalist crap from ESPN to form their opinion.

 

Here it is again:

 

http://deadspin.com/10-or-so-thoughts-on-biogenesis-a-scandal-for-all-the-511484352

[Nottso]

How about Einstein's definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

Someone is doing that in this case and I don't know if it's MLB or Braun.

 

Einstein never said that, although it is widely attributed to be his. He did say something that fits here, though, at least from MLB's perspective.

 

[align=center]"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."

 

~Albert Einstein~[/align]

[TheCrew07]

The simplest solution here is that Braun took something either knowingly or unknowingly (yea I know the Bonds cream and the clear defense) which caused his T levels to be the highest ever recorded. There's too much at stake for the MLBPA and for MLB here, there has to be some sort of actual evidence which none of us know about in play.

See: Modahl, Diane

 

There is a reason these testing protocols are in place. It isn't legal mumbo-jumbo to give loopholes and technicalities to escape through, it is because testing is a very inexact science to begin with, and not adhering to these protocols can and will lead to incorrect results and conclusions. There is a reason samples have to be stored in a specific manner. Others have posted more specifics, but ask any testing scientist about the importance of following these protocols and what can happen if they aren't followed.

 

That's all well and good, but again Braun wasn't the only player tested that day, nor was his the only sample stored over the weekend. I don't want to beat this into the ground yet again and I know we all have varying degrees of emotional investment into Braun's career. I don't like the way this case has been reported from the start, I do believe there are differing agendas in play, and I don't think that any of this is in the best interests of MLB. However due the public perception that baseball was weak on chasing PEDs, which from an objective standpoint I also believe they were, and national media outlets continually running with this story, MLB basically has no choice but to pursue more evidence to bring this situation to some sort of conclusion, they just can't leave it hanging out there.

 

I do have a problem with Bosch being painted any kind of victim, he made his bed, now he has to lay in it. Much like what happened on the west coast with BALCO and Victor Conte the guy's story is going to change as his motives change, and eventually the truth is going to come out. Bosch certainly lacks credibility but his original statements may have actually been false, we just don't know.

[burnzy24]

That deadspin article previously linked is really well done. I hope everyone reads it instead of using sensationalist crap from ESPN to form their opinion.

 

Here it is again:

 

http://deadspin.com/10-or-so-thoughts-on-biogenesis-a-scandal-for-all-the-511484352

 

 

That was great, thanks for reposting it. It was all very interesting but especially this quote in particular:

 

Ryan Braun, one of the players under suspicion here, actually tested positive for banned substances recently, and escaped punishment because the proper protocols for the handling of his bodily fluids weren't followed. (This was, incidentally, not a technicality—the integrity of any system of drug testing is entirely reliant on letter-perfect adherence to technical procedure.) Given that precedent, any suggestion that “This minor character from a Charles Willeford novel said so” will hold up in arbitration as strong evidence is laughable on its face.

 

People should think of this fact before they start to worry that MLB will just hire some arbitrator that will automatically would side with him. If Das ruled for against MLB in Braun's case, any arbitrator that is worth anything (and they don't get to that point without being very good) should have much less of an issue siding against MLB when their best evidence is a lair, his testimony, and his records.

[FVBrewerFan]

Is anyone else bothered by RR's reaction to this? I'm sick of his attitude that any questions about Braun are a "non-issue." Really Ron? I don't care if you think he's guilty or not, either way your HOF LF is about to be suspended for a very long time. I wouldn't call that a non-issue.

[3and2Fastball]

Is anyone else bothered by RR's reaction to this? I'm sick of his attitude that any questions about Braun are a "non-issue." Really Ron? I don't care if you think he's guilty or not, either way your HOF LF is about to be suspended for a very long time. I wouldn't call that a non-issue.

 

Yes, I'm bothered by it as well. He should be standing up and fighting for Braun every step of the way.....

[logan82]

Is anyone else bothered by RR's reaction to this? I'm sick of his attitude that any questions about Braun are a "non-issue." Really Ron? I don't care if you think he's guilty or not, either way your HOF LF is about to be suspended for a very long time. I wouldn't call that a non-issue.

I thought they were still looking into the evidence. I didn't know Brau's suspension was imminent.

 

How much would it really hurt us to lose Braun the rest of this year? Oh no we lose enough games to stay in the top 5 of the draft.

[Outlander]

It isa non issue to Ron because it is likely Braun never gets suspended. Roenicke will just continue to trot him out every day like he usually does.

[thebruce44]

Is anyone else bothered by RR's reaction to this? I'm sick of his attitude that any questions about Braun are a "non-issue." Really Ron? I don't care if you think he's guilty or not, either way your HOF LF is about to be suspended for a very long time. I wouldn't call that a non-issue.

 

He isn't about to be suspended.

[brwrsfan]

Not to change the topic, but we're going to be picking in the top 5 regardless I think. Especially if we go through with a fire sale. Braun being out might keep us in the top 3.

 

What is RR supposed to say? "God, I hope he's not suspended, we suck enough as it is".

[crossface21]

Is anyone else bothered by RR's reaction to this? I'm sick of his attitude that any questions about Braun are a "non-issue." Really Ron? I don't care if you think he's guilty or not, either way your HOF LF is about to be suspended for a very long time. I wouldn't call that a non-issue.

 

I think if RR starts answering questions about it, it's going to be even more of a distraction. I'm thinking he's trying to say the least amount possible so that the media doesn't start feeding off of what he says. I'm sure RR is privy to what really went on for the first test to be positive and I'm sure he probably knows what exactly is going on now. He opens his mouth now and leads on that he may know what exactly is happening or happend, and all of a sudden the media goes after him along with MLB compelling him to "testify" as to what he knows.

[crossface21]

Is anyone else bothered by RR's reaction to this? I'm sick of his attitude that any questions about Braun are a "non-issue." Really Ron? I don't care if you think he's guilty or not, either way your HOF LF is about to be suspended for a very long time. I wouldn't call that a non-issue.

 

I think if RR starts answering questions about it, it's going to be even more of a distraction. I'm thinking he's trying to say the least amount possible so that the media doesn't start feeding off of what he says. I'm sure RR is privy to what really went on for the first test to be positive and I'm sure he probably knows what exactly is going on now. He opens his mouth now and leads on that he may know what exactly is happening or happend, and all of a sudden the media goes after him along with MLB compelling him to "testify" as to what he knows.

[brewmann04]

It not like RR can do any thing about it. I sure he addressed it inside with his team.The reporters really need to worry about his game decisions.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

If Braun gets suspended then so be it. This season is lost anyways. I would rather he be suspended in a lost season like this one. Personally, I don't care if Braun is taking steroids. He's a grown man that makes his own decisions. If he is content with having shriveled testicles, saggy boobs, and heart problems then that's his decision. I don't know him personally. He doesn't mean anything to me. It's the same thing with the rest of these ball players. I don't give a crap what happens to them. They don't pay my bills. In fact we the fans pay their bills.

 

I'm sure that their are many other players doing the same junk. Braun if guilty is just another player on the long list of cheaters. In a perfect world baseball would still be a clean game. In a perfect world you could make it to the big leagues just on talent and hardwork. In this day and age baseball is a dirty game just like every other sport. A lot of players are on something, that is just the sad truth. If Braun gets suspended then that's what he deserves for being an idiot. I root for the Milwaukee Brewers, not the Milwaukee Brauns. My world will not come crashing down just because one of the Brewers got in trouble.

[The stache]

Well, I do care. He's been my favorite player pretty much since he came up to the Majors, and it sucks thinking that he might have taken something he shouldn't have. The thing that kills me is that he really doesn't need some drug to be a great baseball player. You could give me every drug in the book, and I'd never be able to hit a baseball the way he does. Not in a million years. I try to convince myself that he took something to heal faster, and while he shouldn't have done it, I at least can understand it.

 

I know it's easy to say "well, you shouldn't look up to athletes". Sure. Imagine going to some guy that grew up idolizing Mickey Mantle, and telling him "oh by the way, he did such and such". I don't idolize Braun, but I've cheered for him since the day he was drafted. I've built a nice personal collection of Braun baseball cards. And now I feel like crap because of what's happening.

 

I do know one thing for sure, though. Until something is proven against him, I'm going to reserve my judgement.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

Well, I do care. He's been my favorite player pretty much since he came up to the Majors, and it sucks thinking that he might have taken something he shouldn't have. The thing that kills me is that he really doesn't need some drug to be a great baseball player. You could give me every drug in the book, and I'd never be able to hit a baseball the way he does. Not in a million years. I try to convince myself that he took something to heal faster, and while he shouldn't have done it, I at least can understand it.

 

I know it's easy to say "well, you shouldn't look up to athletes". Sure. Imagine going to some guy that grew up idolizing Mickey Mantle, and telling him "oh by the way, he did such and such". I don't idolize Braun, but I've cheered for him since the day he was drafted. I've built a nice personal collection of Braun baseball cards. And now I feel like crap because of what's happening.

 

I do know one thing for sure, though. Until something is proven against him, I'm going to reserve my judgement.

 

Don't get me wrong, as long as he is a Brewer I'll defend him until the end of time. My attitude with athletes has changed. I use to look up to them. As I have gotten older I have changed. I just treat them as other human beings. I'm a Braun fan no doubt. It did bug me that his name was in a drug scandal. I agree that he doesn't need the juice to be a great ballplayer. In my opinion he's a hall of famer. Steroids make you strong but they don't improve your technique, bat speed, and vision. You still need to know how to hit. Barry Bonds could have hit 500 legit HR's without juice. Bonds was a hall of famer before the juice. Braun has great technique and vision. He doesn't need that junk. You shouldn't feel like crap over what an athlete is doing to his body. If anyone should feel like crap it is Braun, if guilty. Braun if guilty has let down many fans and kids that look up to him. This crap just needs to be over so that everyone can move on. My opinion of him won't change guilty or not. Steroids make you strong but don't make you talented. How many bums have taken steroids and never amounted to anything?

[TheCrew07]

Steroids make you strong but they don't improve your technique, bat speed, and vision.

 

Actually they do improve your quick twitch muscle movements which is why sprinters are faster, baseball players hit the ball farther and throw it harder, and so on. They wouldn't have been so prevalent in the Olympics if they only affected pure strength. What use do swimmers have for pure strength? I'm not sure how this myth that steroids don't help baseball players first got started, but it's completely untrue. They won't help you hit a ball, but they will help you hit it farther. Just like they wouldn't help a pitcher locate a pitch, but they will help him throw it harder.

 

I think the most likely scenario would be that if Braun is guilty he was taking something to stay healthy.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

Steroids make you strong but they don't improve your technique, bat speed, and vision.

 

Actually they do improve your quick twitch muscle movements which is why sprinters are faster, baseball players hit the ball farther and throw it harder, and so on. They wouldn't have been so prevalent in the Olympics if they only affected pure strength. What use do swimmers have for pure strength? I'm not sure how this myth that steroids don't help baseball players first got started, but it's completely untrue. They won't help you hit a ball, but they will help you hit it farther. Just like they wouldn't help a pitcher locate a pitch, but they will help him throw it harder.

 

I think the most likely scenario would be that if Braun is guilty he was taking something to stay healthy.

 

That's a good point, but the talent still has to be there. I could take juice and it will help hit the ball harder, but it won't make a good player. Steroids certainly make a difference. Those triples turn into HR's, doubles into triples, singles into doubles, etc. But you still have to know how to hit in order for steroids to make a difference. Clean Bonds already knew how to hit, Roid Bonds turned those hits into HR's.

[Baldkin]

Steroids make you strong but they don't improve your technique, bat speed, and vision.

 

Actually they do improve your quick twitch muscle movements which is why sprinters are faster, baseball players hit the ball farther and throw it harder, and so on. They wouldn't have been so prevalent in the Olympics if they only affected pure strength. What use do swimmers have for pure strength? I'm not sure how this myth that steroids don't help baseball players first got started, but it's completely untrue. They won't help you hit a ball, but they will help you hit it farther. Just like they wouldn't help a pitcher locate a pitch, but they will help him throw it harder.

 

I think the most likely scenario would be that if Braun is guilty he was taking something to stay healthy.

 

Now you're just making stuff up. That is absolutely not true at all. Steroids add bulk, and tons of slow twitch muscles, and generate almost all of their additional mass in the upper body, when in baseball, the overwhelming majority of power comes from the lower body.

 

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/medical-effects.shtml#DISTRIBUTION

 

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00626282

Overall proportions of fast-twitch and ST muscle fibres did not vary with any of the treatments.

 

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/DeVany.old/DeVanyHomeRunMS.pdf

 

But, even that may not be good evidence, because there are no strong reasons why steroids

should increase bat speed. Steroids encourage hypertrophy in body builders and strength athletes,

who use massive amounts, train long and hard, and do very high volume work. No baseball player

can afford to train that long and the training would be highly counterproductive to his baseball

playing. Body builders and strength athletes (power lifters) are not particularly quick. While there

is evidence that steroids increase muscle mass of body builders and strength athletes, this muscle

hypertrophy will not increase the important fast twitch muscle fibers that home run hitters rely on.

Body builder and strength athlete exercises produce a higher volume of slow twitch muscle fiber,

the antithesis of rapid power production.

[TheCrew07]

I guess stand corrected, my information came from a football clinic I attended years ago.

[brewmann04]

vegas i told you about the phillies not easy

[splitterpfj]

I think, if Braun was using synthetic testosterone, he was not using it consistently, on a daily basis. Instead, I would suspect he used it on occasion, big doses for short periods, then off the stuff.

 

I think that because there were no obvious changes to his body - at least not that we could see.

 

The most common physical changes, besides obvious muscle gain, include balding, with increased body hair, acne, and shrunken testes. He didn't get huge, his hairline seems to be right where it started, and there hasn't been acne, unless it's on his back, where we wouldn't see it.

 

As for shrunken twins, of course we don't know that, but if he used synthetic T consistently, his brain would recognize the increased level in his bloodstream, and it would stop sending hormones to his boys, which would normally be telling them to pump more T into his bloodstream. Basically, this would turn his testes off - it would stop sperm production. Sperm production is responsible for about 50% of testes' mass, which is why they shrink in testosterone abusers...they don't disappear, they shrink to about half their normal size, because sperm production is stopped.

 

The only way I could see Braun using synthetic T without physical changes, is if he took it to get a lift, then stopped. That would prevent the obvious changes from occurring, but if he did take a short blast of the stuff, he would get the physical benefits, most importantly, the ability to recover from "wear and tear" faster.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

vegas i told you about the phillies not easy

 

yes you did. i thought yesterday was looking good for the brewers because we had beaten cloyd. i'm not going to expect anything out of this team until RRR is gone. i just don't know when they will decide to show up.

[brewmann04]

Vegas i thinking RR will finish out the Year and then the whole Staff will be gone. I am dissapointed in Krantiz he looks unintrested and their been no improvement in the starters.

I think if they could fire the Bullpen coach when they struggled why not Kramitz. They also nned to sit Braun down for a week and let him heal he not doing the club any good now and it also not like we in a playoff race.

[DatHoser]

A very good article by Joe Posnanski http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/52116701/ns/sports-baseball/

 

In effect, his view, while not original, is that PED's are the burr under Bud's legacy saddle and he'll go to great lengths on this Biogenesis thing even though the evidence is very sketchy at best.