Braun, Biogenesis and the Whole Crazy Thing

[burnzy24]

Really though all it takes is one arbitrator that is an MLB stooge to have these bans hold up. You know the MLB rep will vite for the van and the MLBPA will vote against the ban. It is still going to come down to the 3rd guy and that's why this process is going to be so unpredictable. MLB is going to do their best to make sure the guy they want is that final decider

 

You do realize that typically in agreements like these the arbitrator has to be approved by both parties, especially considering this is a joint agreement between the MLB and MLBPA. If it isn't the case then the MLBPA has the worst attorneys in the country.

[fondybrewfan]

You are right in that regard; it is easier to get an arbitrator fired than it is to get a MLB stooge placed on the panel. I would hope MLBPA is fighting to keep impartiality but you know MLB is going to try to pull one over on them.

 

Who did they hire to replace Das? Their had to have been a couple arby hearing recently

[xisxisxis]

I personally think this is not going to end well for MLB.

 

I agree. I think they are so far behind the curve on this they think it's a straight line. The public is just not that worked up about steroids in sports anymore. Look at Braun, he's 3rd in All-star voting even given a less than impressive YTD. He's hardly been damaged by the bad press and the fans who make a point of giving him a hard time on the road weren't going to acknowledge him as a great player no matter what. Unfortunately, MLB has an enforcement office run by former law enforcement people. There's no greater CERTAINTY in the world than a law enforcement officer who thinks someone is guilty. Trying to prove the case, in any way, drives them more than any doubt that they have the wrong person. Arod and Braun drive them crazy because they are sure they cheated and got away with it. They will not stop until they can nail both players and any other fish that happens to fall in the net be damned. MLB doesn't get that fans don't really have 10% of the zeal to follow and brandish players with the scarlet "S". So while MLB leaves no legal precedent unturned or any due process shredded they are heading for a major collision come the next collective bargaining agreement because the MLBPAA will strike before letting their union members be convicted of anything based on the accusations of someone who's nutts are in the MLB vice. And if there is a work stoppage it only will reflect poorly on the owners especially if they let the enforcement arm run roughshod over players without any real evidence. With Bud in control I am sure that the dumbest thing that MLB could do will be done. About the only dumber thing he could do is make Wendy in charge of enforcement, then the entire world will see what we suffered through for so many years...

[burnzy24]

So apparently another source has said that a suspension is not "imminent" and that MLB plans to interview all the players by the end of the month. Only after the interviews will MLB decide whether or not to discipline and if so for how long. It sounds like a more rational approach but who knows.

 

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/05/major-league-baseball-has-not-yet-decided-to-discipline-biogenesis-players/

[splitterpfj]

No matter what happens now, MLB loses.

 

This has taken too long, and its been much too public, at this point, there's no good ending.

 

Either this will prove baseball's testing process does not work, it will keep leading to more names which will never allow this to end, or it will end in a completely disgusting tie.

 

Casual fans already don't care who's right, they just boo the guy on the other team, without regard for the alleged cheater in their own home uniform.

[burnzy24]

Here is also more proof that ESPN's report was nothing more than garbage:

 

The president of the union, Michael Weiner, said the league had assured the union that no decisions have been made about discipline.

 

“Every player has been or will be represented by an attorney from the Players Association,” he said in a statement. “It would be unfortunate if anyone prejudged those investigations.”

 

He added: “The Players Association has every interest in both defending the rights of players and in defending the integrity of our joint program,” a reference to the league and the union’s shared drug-prevention effort.

 

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/52104952/ns/sports-baseball/

[The stache]

Often times, things are exactly as they appear. There's no ulterior motive. There's no behind the scenes shenanigans.

 

Yet somehow we know that MLB is going to suspend players before they've even begun that process. Funny how there's a complete lack of confidentiality once again. I guess ESPN just got lucky digging through Bud's garbage, huh?

[H4P]

Regarding the overturned suspension. The only facts that I KNOW are true

1. Braun triggered a positive result and appealed.

2. His appeal followed the process that MLB and the Player's Union agreed to.

3. The suspension was not upheld

 

The thing I can't get over with this whole deal...

 

Let's SUPPOSE Braun is guilty and knowingly purchased drugs that are both illegal and would get him suspended by his current employer. So he picks up the phone or shows up in person and says, "Hi. This is Ryan Braun. I'd like to order some steroids, please." He doesn't work through a lawyer or some other outlet to create some chain of custody that makes it impossible to trace back to him? And so do gobs of other players?

 

There is no way that 20 or more MLB players are that stupid. Right?

[RockCoCougars]

I was posting this last night before the board went down, but what is the timeline suggested here regarding the clinic ledger? Is it clear whether or not these alleged transactions happened after Braun won the appeal? If not, it kind of seems like double jeopardy to me. I'm guessing that based on Braun's defense, that these happened after the positive test. Even then, I don't know how they can suspend him for 100 games.

[pebadger]

 

I'm willing to let the system play out, and to largely believe that someone is guilty or not guilty based on how they emerge from the process.

 

All I'm saying is that it's possible that Braun did things that will result in a suspension. And even that statement causes some to get all frothy.

 

I completely agree that Braun may have violated the agreement. We simply don't know. The only real evidence presented so far (evidence tht has not been made public) that he did was deemed insufficient to warrant a conclusion (the reasons for which have not been made public) that he did violate the agreement, and thus he was not suspended.

 

As to the process . . . . This is where I have a big problem with much of this. I have written extensively on this topic here at BF.net. I don't even necessarily disagree that the process will end up at the right result most of the time because by and large the people who end up in the system are "guilty". But I do believe that the process is fundamentally flawed in that for those accused who are actually "innocent" there are virtually no protections.

 

In that regard, the media has completely undersold how extraordinary Braun's victory in the appeal really was. Shyam Das is no dummy or naive dupe. This was not the first time Chain-of-Custody has been an issue in hearing of this nature. Something happened in that hearing that we don't know about yet, and we will likely never know.

 

I have a law degree. I have worked in prosecutorial offices at both the state and federal levels. I know a kangaroo court when I see it and that is exactly what these barely quasi-judicial hearings are in most ways that matter when there is truly a matter in dispute. I know some have said things to the effect that "this isn't a criminal matter, so the same rules need not apply". Fair enough. I'm not saying they should. But what level of protections for the accused should be enough?

 

I vehemently dispute the idea that these are matters best handled by "arbitration". These are intensely adversarial proceedings and deserve to be treated as such. With much of the actual burden of persuasion being on the "defendant" in these cases, there should be MUCH more robust mechanisms for discovery. I won't get into all of the ways that arbitration is a terrible model for adjudicating these matter. I've done enough of that in prior posts.

 

MLBPA has, in my opinion, failed the players in this matter. Constructing the drug protocols in the framework of the WADA-model was an abdication of their responsibility to their membership. I understand that they and MLB largely knuckled under to Congress, which was willing to put MLB under USADA jurisdiction when it came to policing drug use. MLB and the union didn't want ANY exposure to that risk, and rightly so, so they accepted the world-accepted framework but kept the administration in-house. In my opinion MLBPA needed to make a better fight of explaining the serious flaws in the system. They simply didn't want to take that stand because, despite all the good arguments that can be made, the media and public are not especially interested in the legal esoteric here. They want white hats and black hats. It's clean, it's simple and usually it's even pretty close to the truth in these cases. But not always.

 

Braun may be "guilty". He may be "innocent". No matter what, I think that passing off the current system of enforcement as something equivalent to a court of law in an equitable sense is disgraceful, because it just ain't so.

 

One last point on litigation outside the arbitration system: it will be virtually impossible for players to get a day in an honest-to-goodness court of law on the merits of any of this stuff. The arbitration is set up to be the end of these matters. It is extremely difficult to get an arbitration decision reviewed in court in most cases: given the specific nature of this arbitration setup which exists as a result of a CBA it would be extraordinarily so. Any case that does get to court would likely be about labor law, or the Federal Arbitration Act, or federal preemption of some state law that one side or the other might assert as being important to the case. It won't be about whether Player X did or did not take a "prohibited substance". (The whole subject of "prohibited substances" would be another good topic for extended discussion.)

 

To the extent that players would sue on grounds peripheral to the main question of taking or not taking a substance, they'd also likely be out of luck, often with more to lose than to gain even if they win. They almost certainly, as public figures, won't be winning any libel suits against media outlets. There would be little real value to pursuing action against largely judgment-proof defendants on other grounds. The idea that you can just sue to "clear your name" is a notion rooted in a romantic view of "justice" that sadly doesn't really exist in the realm of civil litigation.

[jerichoholicninja]

I keep seeing that Gio Gonzalez won't be suspended because what he received wasn't illegal. So how do they have enough evidence to prove that Gio is "innocent" but they need to investigate everyone else?

[Fear The Chorizo]

Based on plenty of prior occurrences, it's always best to wait at least 24-48 hours after OTL sends out another "BREAKING NEWS" bulletin, because it tends to take that long for the side of the story they don't want reported to make its way out when it comes to this Biogenesis/Braun saga. Hearing from other outlets who have MLB sources saying there's been no decision on issuing suspensions yet, only that MLB is continuing their investigation by interviewing players and they're willing to throw out their frivolous lawsuit against Bosch if he's willing to talk to them. ESPN's breaking news nugget is that MLB is seeking to suspend ARod, Braun, and possibly others? Hasn't that been the case since the Biogenesis story was broke in ARod's case, and ever since Braun's arbitration hearing ended up overturning the 2011 suspension?

 

Sounds like the MLBPA is going to be paying close attention to how far MLB wants to go beyond the collectively-bargained JDA while going after players they so obviously want to suspend. If the list of players Bosch talks about starts growing too much, this whole thing could result in a labor dispute if suspensions start being issued without failed drug tests, with the only proof coming from a fake doctor who's trying to keep himself out of jail and/or endless legal trouble.

 

Specific to Braun's situation, he either used or didn't use drugs that violate MLB's drug program - after all this scrutiny passes, unless we get an admission directly from Braun that he used, or a statement directly from MLB exonerating him, there won't be closure to this story. Unfortunately, I don't think either of these will ever happen regardless of what the truth is, and because of it both MLB's and Braun's reputations are likely to remain sullen.

[reillymcshane]

I guess I'm not going to hold my breath on any of this until I see more.

 

I'm sorry, but all the best guesses, accusations, speculation and personal feelings don't trump proof. For everyone of these guys, it should be about proof. If Bosch brings proof to the table - email, phone recordings, etc. - then go ahead and hang them. But if it's Bosch saying he sold drug X and drug Y, along with a handwritten notebook - that's a stretch in my book.

 

Some people say where there's smoke there's fire - that's often times true. But if MLB goes after these guys and burns them all - and even one of them isn't guilty - it's a travesty.

 

If MLB gets hard proof that some or all of these guys did PEDs, they can and should move forward with suspensions. But let's see the proof before we torch anyone.

[splitterpfj]

I literally cannot believe this. I'd call this whole thing a joke, but jokes are actually funny.

 

http://deadspin.com/report-a-rod-refuses-to-give-bosch-money-bosch-cuts-d-511597230?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

[TheCrew07]

I still think is pretty simple.

Ockham’s razor, also spelled Occam’s razor, also called law of economy or law of parsimony, principle stated by William of Ockham (1285–1347/49), a Scholastic, that Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate:

 

“Plurality should not be posited without necessity.” The principle gives precedence to simplicity; of two competing theories, the simpler explanation of an entity is to be preferred. The principle is also expressed as “Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity.”

 

Or more often than not the simplest solution is probably the correct one.

 

I love a good conspiracy as much as anyone, I love conspiracy movies and documentaries, love them. However the simplest answer here is that Braun actually cheated in some way and got caught. I wasn't a tremendous fan of the testing process, but I was even less of a fan when Braun started pointing a finger at the sample collector. Then when I came here and posters were postulating theories about the Braun turning down the guy's son for autograph so he tainted the sample... or other similarly petty nonsense... well that didn't sit any better with me. With a complete lack of evidence it's okay create ridiculous theories to trash someone we don't know simply because we'd prefer our star to be innocent? How many of us actually "know" Ryan Braun? There may be a grand conspiracy in play against Braun but that isn't the plausible scenario, it would be an extreme exception to the rule.

 

The simplest solution here is that Braun took something either knowingly or unknowingly (yea I know the Bonds cream and the clear defense) which caused his T levels to be the highest ever recorded. There's too much at stake for the MLBPA and for MLB here, there has to be some sort of actual evidence which none of us know about in play.

 

Calling this a "witch hunt" when Braun could very well be guilty seems disingenuous considering this is his 2nd run in with the JDA, and this 2nd incident didn't originate with a failed test.

 

I agree that journalistic integrity is gone in the modern era, with the ability to instantly push "news" to the masses the goal isn't unbiased reporting of a well researched and well sourced story. Instead the idea appears to be first on the scene, get the scoop, and drive hits on blogs, twitter, websites, and so on then clean up the details later. There's no buffer period waiting all day the story to develop and for the national and local news in the evening or the news paper the following day, the news push is instantaneous via social media.

 

As I said the first time with the failed test I don't think there's enough information to form a definitive opinion either way, I am leaning towards Braun being guilty of something based on the way he and his camp have continued try to redirect attention. His final statement to the effect of "the truth not being good for anybody" suggest that he stood to lose equally from a PR standpoint if the full truth revealed. There's information he obviously would rather not share.

 

This second deal with Bosch... the whole thing is a mess. The older I get I find myself simply caring about the "truth", and that's it. In my line of work and I'm just a senior technician locally for a very large company, I've found that overwhelming majority of people will flat out lie, spin events, or leave out important details when situations arise. Rarely will someone own their mistake and give an honest assessment of what happened, and it's not just not the internal folks I work with, the external customers are actually much worse.

 

If the truth is that Braun was taking something, he's gotten everything he deserved for grand standing and claiming he didn't do anything wrong. If he's somehow been mixed up twice in situations that have snow balled on him through no wrong doing on his part then I would expect him to seek some restitution.

 

I would have rather this all played out behind closed doors as intended without the court of public opinion coming into play but somehow as a society we can't even execute covert military missions anymore without someone blabbing the details and tactics which could put lives into jeopardy. Someone is obviously leaking this stuff, but it doesn't seem to be MLB in either case, the evidence just doesn't support that conclusion. There may be an MLB employee in the know leaking stuff to ESPN who has a personal agenda, but I don't see what MLB has to gain by going down the PED road again with 2 of it's biggest stars?

 

This PED stuff is just a nightmare that's never going to a way. There's too much money in professional sports and too much money to be made by cheating. No matter how good the testing is the biggest cheaters are always going to be 1 step ahead and get away with it unless someone starts talking.

 

If Braun is guilty I do think the proposed 100 game suspension is ridiculous though, how can they possibly nail the athletes twice for the same offense? It should be 50 games for any first time offender.

[Bombers]

Regarding the overturned suspension. The only facts that I KNOW are true

1. Braun triggered a positive result and appealed.

2. His appeal followed the process that MLB and the Player's Union agreed to.

3. The suspension was not upheld

 

The thing I can't get over with this whole deal...

 

Let's SUPPOSE Braun is guilty and knowingly purchased drugs that are both illegal and would get him suspended by his current employer. So he picks up the phone or shows up in person and says, "Hi. This is Ryan Braun. I'd like to order some steroids, please." He doesn't work through a lawyer or some other outlet to create some chain of custody that makes it impossible to trace back to him? And so do gobs of other players?

 

There is no way that 20 or more MLB players are that stupid. Right?

 

This is where I am at. How is it these so called "shady" places only recover names of players from MLB. Are we honestly to believe that NFL players don't take HGH or any other PED's and the league is completely clean? I mean they don't even test for it. So I guess MLB players are just complete idiots to use their own name.

[Bombers]

I was posting this last night before the board went down, but what is the timeline suggested here regarding the clinic ledger? Is it clear whether or not these alleged transactions happened after Braun won the appeal? If not, it kind of seems like double jeopardy to me. I'm guessing that based on Braun's defense, that these happened after the positive test. Even then, I don't know how they can suspend him for 100 games.

That's a good point

[pebadger]

I'll see your Occam's Razor and raise you an H.L Mencken: For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

 

Here's a question that nobody has yet answered. Miami New Times have been among the only real journalists in this thing. They did all the original legwork and original reporting. They weren't living off leaks from MLB insiders. There original reporting named lots an lots of names. In fact, it named all the names we're seeing on the list of 20. All the names EXCEPT Ryan Braun. They specifically didn't name Ryan Braun in a report titled "A Miami Clinic Supplies Drugs to Sports' Biggest Names". They specifically didn't name Ryan Braun in a report in which they took interest in examining links between Biogenesis and players with connections to the University of Miami.

 

Only after the New Times did their work did others jump on board with the investgation. That's odd, considering Biogensis was linked to Manny Ramirez's suspension years ago by none other than ESPN.

 

You don't need to be a believer in conspiracy theories to think that something might be a bit off here. Having been a part of it first hand, I know that overzealousness in prosecution is something that folks really need to guard against, especially when you've already been defeated by a guy you are SURE is guilty and you just can't stand the thought that he's getting away with it. I'll just say that it easy to be both 100% SURE you are right whille being 100% wrong in these cases. It sure doesn't prevent you from pulling out all the stops to win.

[torts]

pebadger, your last two posts were really good.

[TheCrew07]

I'll see your Occam's Razor and raise you an H.L Mencken: For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

 

Nice counter!

[MVP2110]

I will say this, that deadspin article actually makes me quite confident in Braun. Why wouldn't Bosch try getting money from Braun to, why just Arod. Arod seems to be going thru great lengths to cover this up where as Braun doesn't

[H4P]

How about Einstein's definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

Someone is doing that in this case and I don't know if it's MLB or Braun.

[brewmann04]

If the Guy admitted that he talked with Braun as a Consult then what can he say now

[Warning Track Power]

@Brewmann:

 

Exactly. Credibility is gone if Bosch were to all of a sudden change his story from being a consultant to Braun to actually having provided Braun with PEDs. I would imagine even students in law school would have a field day attacking his credibility, much less highly successful lawyers that Braun and MLBPA would surely hire to defend him.

[LouisEly]

The simplest solution here is that Braun took something either knowingly or unknowingly (yea I know the Bonds cream and the clear defense) which caused his T levels to be the highest ever recorded. There's too much at stake for the MLBPA and for MLB here, there has to be some sort of actual evidence which none of us know about in play.

See: Modahl, Diane

 

There is a reason these testing protocols are in place. It isn't legal mumbo-jumbo to give loopholes and technicalities to escape through, it is because testing is a very inexact science to begin with, and not adhering to these protocols can and will lead to incorrect results and conclusions. There is a reason samples have to be stored in a specific manner. Others have posted more specifics, but ask any testing scientist about the importance of following these protocols and what can happen if they aren't followed.