Newest PED scandal: Braun named in Biogenesis clinic records (Reply #365: Additional mention found)

[JimH5]

I found it interesting that ESPN reported that their sources at Biogenesis have exonerated Gio Gonzalez. They said that he didn't get any banned substances from them, but instead, received things that are not on the banned list.

 

A couple of things on that--I thought he first said that his dad was the client--not him.

 

And in mentioning Gio (and ONLY Gio), are we to believe that the Biogenesis sources are not giving a pass to the others on the list (including Braun)?

 

More speculation from me, but that's my takeaway from the latest news.

[Fear The Chorizo]

And in mentioning Gio (and ONLY Gio), are we to believe that the Biogenesis sources are not giving a pass to the others on the list (including Braun)?

 

Since new stuff surfaces publicly every 2-3 days, tough to say for sure who they're not giving a pass at this point. Have to keep in mind the "media" outlets that are continually writing about this investigation and new information aren't the ones who initially got all the records, researched them, and wrote the one story that doesn't include speculation. For all we know 3 days from now another story will surface that claims another 2-3 players previously mentioned have nothing to do with PEDs. In reality, none of the information ESPN, Yahoo, etc have been writing about since the Miami New Times piece is new, it's just info the people who have looked at all the records didn't include in the initial story.

 

More speculation from me, but that's my takeaway from the latest news.

 

Might as well keep speculating, because that's all the latest reports have been doing since the Miami New Times article.

[JimH5]

I thought the latest stuff was actual news that ESPN uncovered. They have Biogenesis sources (unnamed) who told them Gio is clean. That's new news to the story broken by the Miami New Times.

 

I'm not a fan of ESPN, but this does appear to be their new development.

[pebadger]

It seems to me that it's fair to hypothesize that this 'story' is being kept alive and dragged out intentionally by semi-daily drips and drops of "new" information.

[JimH5]

Agreed that it seems that way.

 

But that doesn't mean that necessarily is that way.

 

It's still a hot story with a number of news organizations involved. I would think they're all trying to advance it to the next step. ESPN has an insider who they're going to. Maybe they're only willing to give up small bits of info.

 

Biogenesis is closed, so maybe it's an ex-employee whose not getting a paycheck, and they see this as their big opportunity to cash in.

[brewmann04]

so with Gio being cleared or having his named removed that the other including Braun are gulity of PED?

[RockCoCougars]

This chatter from inside sources indicates that people from the lab are getting ready to talk, they are probably waiting for their lawyers to negotiate their best deal for the tell all. I hope Braun is telling the truth, otherwise this is not going away. Heck, in this day and age, I wouldn't be surprised if former employees had cell phone footage of these guys getting treatment. I highly doubt that Biogenesis followed HIPAA to the tee.

[bigjase]

My thought when I first heard was that Gio's name was on the same list as Braun that "the only reason to be on this list is if you bought PEDs." Doesn't this now conflict with that report?

[brewmann04]

I agree on your points and hopefully Ryan was telling the truth or it all going to come crashing down on him.

[Ennder]

so with Gio being cleared or having his named removed that the other including Braun are gulity of PED?

 

Since all they did was quote 'sources' this means nothing at all. Sources said Braun showed he could reproduce a false positive, ESPN didn't choose to run that because they are greedy little jerks who just want to get press.

[Fear The Chorizo]

ESPN is notorious for citing unnamed "sources", or "reports" without actually citing specific individuals or media outlets - that way it appears like they're breaking news when all they're actually doing is regurgitating information that was already published or known. They just happen to have the biggest bandwidth to bomb information out. Happens all the time with their NFL/NBA/MLB "insiders" who pull stuff off twitter accounts and websites of reporters working for different companies that actually scoop new information. Outside the Lines appears to operate the same way.

 

The Gio Gonzalez "source" might be a new development, but not making it public calls into question who the source actually is and why they would only have information on 1 of the dozen or so players named. And as Ennder said, there were plenty of 'sources' during the Braun appeal process (that was supposed to be confidential but obviously wasn't) that indicated Braun's team was able to present a powerful argument to discredit the sample result, but media outlets who already wrote articles bashing Braun for being a PED cheat before the appeal hearing didn't have the stones to present information that was favorable to Braun. There were probably "sources" that Braun's team instructed not to speak with the ESPN's and Yahoo "media" outlets, because of how they were protraying him during the appeal process.

[brewmann04]

James Wagner ‏@JamesWagnerWP

Miami New Times editor in chief says they're nearing decision whether to hand over Biogenesis documents to MLB. League had asked for them.

[brwrsfan]

I don't know if I want them to or not. They didn't publish Braun, so that could be a good thing...maybe there is nothing there or maybe there is something there than can prove his innocence.

 

On the other hand, I think MLB has it out for him and may try to suspend him OR they could actually find more info and have a real reason to suspend him (seems unlikely given that the paper didn't publish him but who knows).

[brewmann04]

exactly who knows but like to have an ending one way or another.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I don't know if I want them to or not. They didn't publish Braun, so that could be a good thing...maybe there is nothing there or maybe there is something there than can prove his innocence.

 

On the other hand, I think MLB has it out for him and may try to suspend him OR they could actually find more info and have a real reason to suspend him (seems unlikely given that the paper didn't publish him but who knows).

 

I've been a Braun defender, but I'd actually want them to provide everything they have to MLB. The New Times didn't include Braun in their initial report, and I think they absolutely would have if there was enough evidence to link him to PEDs in the clinic records/Bosch documents. Also, if there is damning information out there on Braun and he's been lying this whole time, I want to know.

 

I want MLB to be able to do a full investigation and will live with the results of it - I think the worst scenario for both fans and Braun's public image is for MLB not to get all the documents and have the cloud of a stalled investigation hanging over Braun's head indefinitely.

[Outlander]

I don't know if I want them to or not. They didn't publish Braun, so that could be a good thing...maybe there is nothing there or maybe there is something there than can prove his innocence.

 

On the other hand, I think MLB has it out for him and may try to suspend him OR they could actually find more info and have a real reason to suspend him (seems unlikely given that the paper didn't publish him but who knows).

The MLB union is too strong, especially after last year they will have a real difficult time ever suspending him.

[torts]

I don't know if I want them to or not. They didn't publish Braun, so that could be a good thing...maybe there is nothing there or maybe there is something there than can prove his innocence.

 

On the other hand, I think MLB has it out for him and may try to suspend him OR they could actually find more info and have a real reason to suspend him (seems unlikely given that the paper didn't publish him but who knows).

The MLB union is too strong, especially after last year they will have a real difficult time ever suspending him.

 

the arbitration decision is binding and they cannot overrule it, so braun can only be suspended for additional failed test results. its not that the union is too strong

[Raw Biz]

the arbitration decision is binding and they cannot overrule it, so braun can only be suspended for additional failed test results. its not that the union is too strong

 

That's not necessarily true from what I've read. If they get some kind of evidence (other than just writing on a piece of paper) that Braun was using, they could still suspend him. I'm not sure if it would be the 50 game ban or something else but I'm almost positive I read somewhere that they could suspend him for something if they determined and had proof that he used. But I think if there was any proof (again other than a piece of paper), it would have come out by now.

[torts]

the arbitration decision is binding and they cannot overrule it, so braun can only be suspended for additional failed test results. its not that the union is too strong

 

That's not necessarily true from what I've read. If they get some kind of evidence (other than just writing on a piece of paper) that Braun was using, they could still suspend him. I'm not sure if it would be the 50 game ban or something else but I'm almost positive I read somewhere that they could suspend him for something if they determined and had proof that he used. But I think if there was any proof (again other than a piece of paper), it would have come out by now.

 

In order to have an arbitration award vacated, it is usually necessary to demonstrate at least one of the following in court: There was a serious conflict of interest on the part of a neutral arbitrator; the award was not final and thus failed to constitute a definitive end to the issue; or, the award covered an issue that was outside the scope of the arbitration agreement.

 

Arbitrator fraud or misconduct claims are rare because actual evidence of arbitrator misconduct is hard to come by. When courts are faced with motions to vacate an arbitration award, they will generally only look at the procedural details of the arbitration, not the substantive details. This means that courts won’t look at the merits of the case unless the claim involves the award itself being unreasonable or unethical. Ultimately, fraud is very unlikely to be a winning argument in court unless there is definitive evidence. An arbitrator’s binding decision isn’t fraudulent just because it’s unfavorable.

[Raw Biz]

the arbitration decision is binding and they cannot overrule it, so braun can only be suspended for additional failed test results. its not that the union is too strong

 

That's not necessarily true from what I've read. If they get some kind of evidence (other than just writing on a piece of paper) that Braun was using, they could still suspend him. I'm not sure if it would be the 50 game ban or something else but I'm almost positive I read somewhere that they could suspend him for something if they determined and had proof that he used. But I think if there was any proof (again other than a piece of paper), it would have come out by now.

 

In order to have an arbitration award vacated, it is usually necessary to demonstrate at least one of the following in court: There was a serious conflict of interest on the part of a neutral arbitrator; the award was not final and thus failed to constitute a definitive end to the issue; or, the award covered an issue that was outside the scope of the arbitration agreement.

 

Arbitrator fraud or misconduct claims are rare because actual evidence of arbitrator misconduct is hard to come by. When courts are faced with motions to vacate an arbitration award, they will generally only look at the procedural details of the arbitration, not the substantive details. This means that courts won’t look at the merits of the case unless the claim involves the award itself being unreasonable or unethical. Ultimately, fraud is very unlikely to be a winning argument in court unless there is definitive evidence. An arbitrator’s binding decision isn’t fraudulent just because it’s unfavorable.

 

I'm not talking anything about the arbitration. That test and everything is over and done with. I'm talking about new evidence coming forward and using that to suspend him. Like I said, I don't know if it would be the 50 games because if the evidence isn't a failed drug test, I'm not sure how that's written in the CBA. But I'm sure I read somewhere that he could be suspended for something.

[Ennder]

You technically can be suspended without a drug test but it isn't going to happen without some sort of concrete case and there really is nothing that suggests they have one on any of these players. I'd be shocked if anything came out of this for any player.

[Raw Biz]

You technically can be suspended without a drug test but it isn't going to happen without some sort of concrete case and there really is nothing that suggests they have one on any of these players. I'd be shocked if anything came out of this for any player.

 

That's what I was saying. Technically he could still be suspended but if there was strong enough evidence to do so, it most likely would have come out already.

[pebadger]

The new hot basis for punishing "cheats" is the "non-analytical positive".

 

In a nutshell, it means that if the authorities think you're a cheat and they have information that they feel is good enough (by their own standards as judge, jury and executioner), they will declare you to be in violation of the anti-doping regime and punish you accordingly, even in the absence of any scientific evidence of the use of banned substances. In essence, it's the authorities throwing up their hands and admitting they can't catch the people they want to catch. I haven't looked at the new JDA language, and I don't think there is a provision to pursue such a case against a player represented by MLBPA, but that where the anti-doping effort is headed.

 

I'm not necessarily averse to the idea of prosecuting violations on the basis of evidence other than test results, but once you go down that route you really need to have a well-constructed set of rules and procedures in place to ensure fairness and accuracy. Given what I know about how these things are operated, I feel very confident in saying that these governing bodies are not set up to ensure either.

[brwrsfan]

So there is now an article on CBS saying that Gio Gonzalez got tested 2 days after the story came out and that his test came back negative. Uh...ok. Did other players get tested? Where are their stories of being clean? Did Braun give a sample? I find it ridiculous that they will do everything to clear Gonzalez but without any evidence, they've just let all the other players hang out to try. I'm guessing lots of guys give samples when they report to Spring Training.

[fondybrewfan]

Braun took a test immediately in the fall of 2011 after he got his positive test back. I assume that came back negative but that apparently wasn't newsworthy and in no way affected his guilt