Newest PED scandal: Braun named in Biogenesis clinic records (Reply #365: Additional mention found)

[Baldkin]

Because baseball had by far the richest history of any of these sports, especially when it came to stats/records. Next thing you know, guys are sticking needles in their buttocks and they are doing things to in effect ruin these stats by watering down many records by putting up video game numbers.

 

But baseball didn't have a problem with guys sticking needles in their butts in the mid to late 90's, not when it helped boost ratings, not when it helped put butts in the seats, not when owners were giving stupid money to the players who were doing it. So who is really at fault for the "drug culture" in MLB? Is it the players? Or is it MLB and the owners? In my opinion, MLB and the owners allowed and ultimately encouraged this kind of culture to thrive just by turning a blind eye. What you permit, you promote. And now, the players are being punished for the sins of their hypocritical bosses even with only the flimsiest "connection" to PED's.

 

MLB didn't have a problem changing the baseball to allow these video game numbers either.

[Patrick425]

That kind of passion is what I wish Braun would use in making his own defense.

 

Exactly. C'mon Braun....if you are really innocent...you can't just stand by and let all of this happen to you!

[thebruce44]

I am so flipping tired of the little "internet scientists" reverting back to the "Braun got off on a technicality" meme.

 

Urine cannot sit out for 44 hours, and yield accurate test results. It is a scientific impossibility. Why? Because urine is not inert. In a closed sample, after 8 to 10 hours, the liquid will begin to warm as bacteria grows. Bacterial growth leads to the cellular breakdown. When this happens, liquid evaporates, and the ph factor changes. The exact same thing happened in Diane Modahl's case, and her team was able to prove that the sample sat out at the lab, causing the urine to degrade.

 

Urine is sterile, and a properly collected urine sample will be sterile (unless you have a UTI). In a properly sealed sample, there won't be any evaporation. And yes, I'm an actual scientist.

 

I'm an actual scientist too. Doesn't mean I know how urine works.

[thebruce44]

Regardless of whether he's actually guilty or not, this is the final nail in the coffin as far as the court of public opinion is concerned.

 

No its not. People who already thought he was guilty will use this as further "proof." People who thought he is completely clean will shrug it off. People who think that nothing has been proven against him so he is innocent (me) will continue to wait for real proof or just roll their eyes when lazy people throw him under the bus.

[brewers19]

I'm not really a scientist, but that's irrelevant to the fact that urine is no longer sterile as soon as it leaves the body.

[dlk9s]

Out of curiosity, I decided to run my own test. I stored 1/4 cup of my urine in a triple-sealed Tupperware container in my home office at room temperature for 36 hours. I know that's not quite as long as Braun's sample, but I figured it was close enough for my amateur experiment.

 

After unsealing the sample, it certainly did not taste sterile.

[BrewCrewForever]

I someday hope to go to Braun's HOF induction ceremony in Cooperstown. Not sure if that will happen now. Even if he never fails a test, serves a suspension and continues to put up his HOF caliber numbers he might not get in. Of course by the time he is eligible, the electorate will have changed to more of the young writers but still. This crap might cost him and us Brewers fans of seeing another one of ours in the Hall. Sad.

[bani1717]

No its not. People who already thought he was guilty will use this as further "proof." People who thought he is completely clean will shrug it off. People who think that nothing has been proven against him so he is innocent (me) will continue to wait for real proof or just roll their eyes when lazy people throw him under the bus.

 

Exactly. That's one reason why I think he's very smart for not saying a whole lot right now and largely keeping his mouth shut. People who believe him will continue believing him, people who think he's a liar will continue to think he's lying, and people who aren't really sure likely won't be convinced by him talking.

 

So if Braun is innocent, I think he's very smart to not talk about this more than he needs to and to just focus on getting ready for the season, as opposed to worrying about what the public thinks about him.

[umphrey]

I someday hope to go to Braun's HOF induction ceremony in Cooperstown. Not sure if that will happen now. Even if he never fails a test, serves a suspension and continues to put up his HOF caliber numbers he might not get in. Of course by the time he is eligible, the electorate will have changed to more of the young writers but still. This crap might cost him and us Brewers fans of seeing another one of ours in the Hall. Sad.

 

Well, I think that has to change at some point. They can't just stop electing HOFers over a 15-20 year period, right?

[danzig6767]

Honest question: Why, when football players (see Neal, Mike; Sherman, Richard et al) or basketball players (see Turkoglu, Hedo; Lewis, Rashard et al) are busted for banned substances it's barely a news story and no one condemns them, but a baseball player is weakly linked to PED's or assumed to be on them with no proof and he's the devil incarnate? And don't give the answer "because a lot of baseball players have been busted." That's too simplistic.

 

Because baseball had by far the richest history of any of these sports, especially when it came to stats/records. Next thing you know, guys are sticking needles in their buttocks and they are doing things to in effect ruin these stats by watering down many records by putting up video game numbers.

 

It would be a bigger story in football though if a superstar like say Rodgers, Manning, Brees, Adrian Peterson, Megatron, etc got busted for using PED's.

 

Quite a few guys get suspended in the NFL each year for using a banned substance, but never has a big superstar been busted like a Braun, A-Rod, McGwire, or Manny. Baseball also had HOF level stars in Bonds/Clemens who everyone thinks used roids.

 

Granted though, the largely individual aspect to how baseball is played compared to other sports has caused baseball records to be more revered.

[The stache]

Every time I identify myself as a Brewers fan on another forum, some pinhead starts in with "hey brah, Ryan Braun is guilty of using steroids, you know". It's annoying as hell, and I'd like that to go away. But you know what, guys? None of this will matter at all if at some point in the not-too-distant future the truth finally comes out, and Ryan is vindicated.

 

We all want the immediate answers. I get that, and I'm sure that Ryan Braun gets that, too. He's a pretty smart guy. I want answers not only as a Ryan Braun fan, and a Milwaukee Brewers fan, but as a lover of the game itself. I loathe cheaters of all kinds because the integrity of the game matters to me.

 

So, while we want answers now, it's important to keep some perspective. The guy at the middle of all this has to do it the right way. He's been advised ad nauseum by his legal council, I'm sure, and as much as he'd like to spill the beans, his future, and his legacy, are really all that matter. So he must exercise restraint. If he comes out, and missteps, it could irrevocably damage that future. It could also harm the franchise (what happens to the Brewer's season if Ryan violates the rules of arbitration, and MLB slaps him with a suspension?) So he has to fight his battles in a way that none of us might understand. He might seem overly reserved, but that could very well be because of requirements set forth by binding arbitration that none of us are aware of. In the mean time, publications like ESPN and Yahoo Sports will run their little articles. And the mouth breathers will trash him.

 

Let them have their fun. In the grand scheme of things, are we really concerned about the opinions these people have? I'm not. I've decided to treat it as peripheral noise. When something substantive comes out, I'll read it. But I am refusing to get all worked up every time some piece of notebook paper with Ryan's name scribbled upon it comes out. I am going to focus on the season coming up just like I do every year. I am going to get my fantasy team ready, and enjoy spring training. And when this whole mess is finally resolved, then I will revisit it.

[NievesNoNO]

Everyone's got there own opinion but my take is that when it's all said and done Braun speaking in front of the cameras at Miller Park will end up being one of the biggest bold faced lies in baseball history. We can talk all day long about how there's no proof, the alleged paper that the name are written on, the chain of custody, blah , blah, blah. For me, the bottom line is as much as I've been skeptical of reports in the past, as sketchy as they might have seemed all of them I can remember ended up with the players accused being eventually found 'guilty'.. some even admitting to it. Where there's smoke there's fire. This feels no different to me. Turns out Canseco might be one of the most truthful players of his and future eras.

 

The question for me is, do I care? Somewhat. Unfortunately, I enjoy baseball too much to just throw it away. The game as it stands right now doesn't seem much cleaner than cycling. One busted player is like finding one mouse in your house. Either just let the game/players/medical technology do as they will and enjoy the show or lay down something more stringent. Random blood tests that must be completed at an actual lab. One positive test= 1 year suspension without pay. Second and you're done. That wouldn't be fool proof either but it would be better than the current system.

 

I really do hope Braun is telling the truth but really why should I think much differently about him than I do about a guy who claims his dad went to the same clinic for weight loss? So, really nobody has denied a connection to the clinic, it's just that they all have a different reason to why their name appears on a supposed list. Hmm..

[Nottso]

"For me, the bottom line is as much as I've been skeptical of reports in the past, as sketchy as they might have seemed all of them I can remember ended up with the players accused being eventually found 'guilty'."

 

That's probably because the ones that were not guilty, you (we) never heard about... just like you (we) were never supposed to have heard about Braun's test.

[Ennder]

Quite a few guys get suspended in the NFL each year for using a banned substance, but never has a big superstar been busted like a Braun, A-Rod, McGwire, or Manny. Baseball also had HOF level stars in Bonds/Clemens who everyone thinks used roids.

 

That is because they warn them before they test them. It is really hard to get busted in the NFL where cheating is basically ignored. I'm sorry but just because the NFL doesn't get press doesn't mean it is clean. Steroids are completely rampant in that sport.

[dlk9s]

"For me, the bottom line is as much as I've been skeptical of reports in the past, as sketchy as they might have seemed all of them I can remember ended up with the players accused being eventually found 'guilty'."

 

That's probably because the ones that were not guilty, you (we) never heard about... just like you (we) were never supposed to have heard about Braun's test.

 

Funny thing is, even if we never heard about it last year, we would've heard about it now. That, or Braun would've come up with a different story as to why he is on some of Bosch's lists.

[DHonks]

Surprised nobody mentioned the JSonline story posted last night that says that MLB's investigation into the leak of a positive Braun test revealed that a clinic the defense used for consultation in Florida is the one that leaked the news. If I'm Braun's camp, there's a reason we never paid the bill and that's because of breach of contract. If I'm this Bosch guy, of course I'd be upset and want my $20-30k.

[Patrick425]

Surprised nobody mentioned the JSonline story posted last night that says that MLB's investigation into the leak of a positive Braun test revealed that a clinic the defense used for consultation in Florida is the one that leaked the news. If I'm Braun's camp, there's a reason we never paid the bill and that's because of breach of contract. If I'm this Bosch guy, of course I'd be upset and want my $20-30k.

 

 

What story are you talking about? There was this one from Haudricourt that was in the paper this morning, but I don't see anywhere in here that suggests that the clinic is leaking the info:

 

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/brauns-team-must-go-to-bat-for-him-5n8ptnv-191567531.html

 

I don't agree with everything Haudricourt states in this article, but I believe in the overall message, especially the last line:

 

Leak by leak, your client is dying a slow public relations death. What are you waiting for?

[fleehaw]

I'm not really a scientist, but that's irrelevant to the fact that urine is no longer sterile as soon as it leaves the body.

 

A properly collected urine sample is still sterile. If Braun's or anyone's sample has bacteria or yeast in it, it means either they have an infection, or it was contaminated. That does not mean analytes in the sterile sample won't break down over time and temperature (it depends on the analyte) to yield errant results.

 

FWIW, I find Braun's explanation plausible and I hope he's vindicated in some way. I will also reserve my judgement until he's convicted/suspended (concrete evidence surfaces), or he admits his use. Unfortunately, as others have echoed, I don't think either will happen.

 

I was merely disputing points written as facts by another poster.

[trwi7]

Didn't the collector hold the urine for the weekend and then didn't bring it to Fed Ex until Monday afternoon? I'm pretty sure bacteria can grow in 24 hours even if it's properly sealed and stored.

[cnycerveceros]

I think he cheated. I'm angry I'll have to watch his at bats for however long is left on his contract. I'm angrier the team will be paying him longer than that. I'm angry that he (likely) lied to us. I hope I'm wrong, but if I am wrong it seems like it should have been cleared up easier than this. I'm sick that either way (clean and wrapped up in the scandal or dirty and wrapped up in the scandal) that I can't just enjoy this sport naively. It's not an escape from the complexity and disappointment of real life anymore.

 

Why should I give MLB or the Brewers (and hence Ryan Braun) my money? I'm on the fence about canceling my mlb.tv subscription. I would have canceled it already if the website as working. My wife will probably still get the Verizon Extra Innings package, but I don't know that I can watch anymore.

 

I'm being melodramatic, fine, but setting aside all the time and money I have for MLB over the years makes me feel like a dupe.

[narwhalattack]

I'm not really a scientist, but that's irrelevant to the fact that urine is no longer sterile as soon as it leaves the body.

 

A properly collected urine sample is still sterile. If Braun's or anyone's sample has bacteria or yeast in it, it means either they have an infection, or it was contaminated. That does not mean analytes in the sterile sample won't break down over time and temperature (it depends on the analyte) to yield errant results.

 

 

 

My thinking is that at some point the urine comes in contact with air where it can come in contact with airborne bacteria. That bacteria could then multiply when left in room temperature. Also if you have a sealed container at some point you would have to open it, and airborne bacteria could also get into the container.

[Patrick425]

I think he cheated. I'm angry I'll have to watch his at bats for however long is left on his contract. I'm angrier the team will be paying him longer than that. I'm angry that he (likely) lied to us. I hope I'm wrong, but if I am wrong it seems like it should have been cleared up easier than this. I'm sick that either way (clean and wrapped up in the scandal or dirty and wrapped up in the scandal) that I can't just enjoy this sport naively. It's not an escape from the complexity and disappointment of real life anymore.

 

Why should I give MLB or the Brewers (and hence Ryan Braun) my money? I'm on the fence about canceling my mlb.tv subscription. I would have canceled it already if the website as working. My wife will probably still get the Verizon Extra Innings package, but I don't know that I can watch anymore.

 

I'm being melodramatic, fine, but setting aside all the time and money I have for MLB over the years makes me feel like a dupe.

 

I completely understand how you feel. I'm angry as well. However, not sure if you are a fan of other sports, but if you decide to "boycott" baseball, then you basically have to give other sports the same treatment, as I don't think it's safe to assume that any of the sports are completely clean.

[trwi7]

I think boycotting a sport because players cheat is one of the dumbest things someone can do. No offense.

[RobDeer 45]

Ya, cheating goes on in every sport. Because Baseball attracts so many purists, it seems to be way more of a huge deal when someone is busted. Players get busted in football all the time and we don't even talk about it for more than 1 min.

[jwill535]

I may be alone here, but I couldnt care less if the players on my favorite team "cheat" because everyone else is and actually I hope the players on that team are better at it then the other teams. Now I know just because everyone is doing it doesnt mean its wrong, but come on its sports, and its nothing but entertainment and thats all I want is to be is entertained.

 

Do I think Braun guilty, yes I do, do I care, no. If you for some reason feel cheated or lied to, then you need to reevaluate you life and get some Sensodyne, but you are way to sensitive. Its an athlete doing what it takes to maximize his earning potential.