Newest PED scandal: Braun named in Biogenesis clinic records (Reply #365: Additional mention found)

[xisxisxis]

Unfortunately, one of the greatest problems with the internet is a common belief that somehow because a yahoo or other website/blogger puts something out then somehow that means the info is real or true.

 

i have no interest in hearing Costa's [expletive deleted], but I wonder what Boob would do if he was accused of taking illegal drugs. Let's see, the yellow pages must have a whole section on illegal drug experts. Nope. Well the DEA must have a helpline. Nope. Maybe i can contact a testing agency. Sure, but they have no interest in crossing the people that give them work (see Das, Shyam). So who can i contact. i know, there must be some scientist who knows all this stuff (see previous example). So who's going to help you prove that your innocent. the most likely assistance will come from someone who tries to beat the system and knows ways of preventing and refuting a positive test. It's silly and intellectually lazy to assume that there is a reputable place to go that is well known and are experts in understanding how a test for illegal drugs can be overturned. if they exist they also have a side door entrance where shady **** happens. I guess in this case it's best just to take the punishent, Boob, instead of trying to prove your innocence.

 

Good thing Braun decided to spend a ton of money on lawyers and consultants to get the answer he needed.

[theavrock]

"So in other words Braun said he would cooperate fully but really his defense is "take my word for it"?

 

I understand it's privileged but he can't have it both ways......You can't say you will cooperate fully and then not do anything to show that your explanation is true."

 

 

 

So fully cooperating means giving up the rights he is legally entitled to?

[Ennder]

He will fully cooperate with MLB, that doesn't mean showing the fans anything. For all we know he has already turned over some sort of proof to MLB. People need to just live with the fact that we don't know what happened during his appeal and we aren't going to know what happens with this. It is between MLB and Braun, we have no part in it.

[markedman5]

If MLB issues a statement that Braun has cooperated and they are statisfied that his explanation is true that is fine with me.

[brewmann04]

if he gave anything to MLB then we can expect it to be leaked soon.

[Fear The Chorizo]

If MLB issues a statement that Braun has cooperated and they are statisfied that his explanation is true that is fine with me.

 

Actually, if MLB doesn't suspend Braun it's fine with me and it indicates he cooperated with their investigation and is telling the truth. Likely that MLB is looking out for their own PR interests much more than an individual player's. MLB won't do him any favors in the press, they've already proven that. If there are any ties between Bosch and Braun's appeal process that are backed up by a paper trail Braun's team gives MLB, MLB will continue to keep it confidential - whether Bosch was directly used during the actual appeal or not.

[xisxisxis]

If MLB issues a statement that Braun has cooperated and they are statisfied that his explanation is true that is fine with me.

 

I think you should threaten too hold your breath until they do.....

[markedman5]

I think that comment is uncalled for.

 

If you want to accept Braun's words at face value just because he is our guy then fine. Don't insult me because I am not willing to.

 

Hopefully this will be over soon and we can go back to discussing who will win the final 3 spots in the rotation and if Ax is ready to bounce back and have a solid season closing games.

If MLB issues a statement that Braun has cooperated and they are statisfied that his explanation is true that is fine with me.

 

I think you should threaten too hold your breath until they do.....

[Greg Vaughn]

It's quite obvious the guy is a juicer. We are starting to sound like Giants fans defending Barry Bonds for crap sakes. I just hope he doesn't get caught at this point......don't want him suspended.

[brwrsfan]

MLB will never issue a statement stating that Braun told the truth. Never. We saw how they had it out for him last year and this is going to make them want to nail him for something even more. They may not suspend him, but they won't ever say he was clean and proved it. I'd fall out of my chair if they did.

[dlk9s]

I think that comment is uncalled for.

 

If you want to accept Braun's words at face value just because he is our guy then fine. Don't insult me because I am not willing to.

I don't think you understood what xisxisxis was saying.

[TheCrew07]

MLB will never issue a statement stating that Braun told the truth. Never. We saw how they had it out for him last year and this is going to make them want to nail him for something even more.

 

I find much of this intriguing but this where I part company with many posters in this thread. The simple fact is that Braun failed a drug test and the "why" isn't public. MLB supported the sample collector and the lab, I don't see anything wrong with that. From the league's perspective a player failed his drug test and should be held accoutable, that's reasonable stance and I don't believe it came with malicious "out to get Braun" intent.

 

Remove sports from the equation, if you are an employer and some of your employees take a drug test on the same day but only one of them fails, and then he/she points the finger at the sample collector how much credibility does your employee have? That's essentially the situation with Braun and that's why people are skeptical about him.

 

In fact, I thought Braun was out of line to point the finger at the sample collector in the first place. If the process is flawed then attack the process, but don't attack the people doing the work. Essentially all he did was point the finger at someone else which to me is just a misdirection strategy. The process may have infact been flawed and it appears that it was since MLB pulled back and came up with a new testing plan, but that doesn't explain Braun's test results. The Chain of Custody process can be flawed but that doesn't mean in any way, shape, or form that Braun's sample was actually tampered with.

 

I highly doubt there was anything going on with Bosch and in the end it's just more negative publicity for Braun. I don't think he'll ever get clear of the stigma until some sort of scientific explanation explains his high T level, but it seems that even if a scientific explanation is available that it will likely never be released.

 

So it appears we'll always be in the dark arguing about this subject based on personal bias and having been badly burned by someone close to me in the past who I thought was trust worthy, I have a hard time taking anyone's word at face value. Personally I want factual evidence and in a case like this where there really isn't any hard evidence to come by it's very difficult for me to take definitive position either way. I am leaning towards the idea that Braun was taking something last year, not necessarily a classic PED, but something based purely on his comments.

 

I've had plenty of kids and unfortunately parents/adults lie to me over the years and Braun's statements rubbed me the wrong way, it was like he was saying, "forget what I did and look over here". It doesn't matter if it's players, parents, customers, or co-workers, the verbage may change but for the most part it's essentially the same excuse every single time, it's anyone's fault but their own.

[dlk9s]

From the league's perspective a player failed his drug test and should be held accoutable, that's reasonable stance and I don't believe it came with malicious "out to get Braun" intent.

It's not that people think the league was "out to get" Braun from the get-go. He obviously failed the drug test. MLB didn't rig it or something. What people have a problem with was MLB's reaction after the fact. The league could have easily just made a statement that Braun won his appeal and moved on. Instead, MLB raged, basically saying it was all [expletive deleted] and then relieved the arbitrator of his duties.

[xisxisxis]

The simple fact is that Braun failed a drug test and the "why" isn't public. MLB supported the sample collector and the lab, I don't see anything wrong with that. From the league's perspective a player failed his drug test and should be held accoutable, that's reasonable stance and I don't believe it came with malicious "out to get Braun" intent.

 

The problem with the entire Ryan Braun PED issue to me is that he was outed before the process was complete. It's pretty clear from the Cabrera case, once MLB issues a suspension they have already heard any appeal. In Braun's case they had not heard the appeal then it was leaked that he "failed" a test. It may be splitting hairs, but Braun doesn't fail the test until MLB declares him suspended. Where I fault MLB (aside from their horrendous response to the Das' ruling) was that they should have put out a statement when the leak came out that Braun had not at that point failed a test, then let his appeal proceed through the normal process. If the arbitrator agreed with Braun, nothing needed to ever be said about the process again and if the arbitrator sided with MLB then they could issue the suspension. MLB made an extremely stupid decision to ignore a proper response to the leak that could have made the whole process work better. "Ryan Braun has not officially failed any MLB and MLBPAA sponsored drug testing program" would have been the best one line statement for MLB to release at the time. If pressed by "journalists" they could simply say they will not respond to rumors. Instead, they hung him out in the wind and then when he successfully won his appeal had to attack the arbiter and the process that they themselves chose. I've never been very impressed with the brainpower in the commissioners office and in the MLB offices and this affair has just reinforced my views.

[RightFieldCoder]

Remove sports from the equation, if you are an employer and some of your employees take a drug test on the same day but only one of them fails, and then he/she points the finger at the sample collector how much credibility does your employee have? That's essentially the situation with Braun and that's why people are skeptical about him.

IIRC, weren't at least one of the other samples thrown out because the results were so out of wack? I think there were problems with all of the samples, but Braun's was the only one that found "synthetic T" in the second test. Except they didn't find "synthetic T", they found molecules that were the same size as synthetic T. Since the scientific process wasn't followed, how do we know what those molecules were?

[MNBrew]

So in other words Braun said he would cooperate fully but really his defense is "take my word for it"?

 

I understand it's privileged but he can't have it both ways......You can't say you will cooperate fully and then not do anything to show that your explanation is true.

This whole argument is flawed. Braun's not asking to have it both ways. Whether you like it or not, his "take my word for it" response is his response to the public -- his PR -- and it's very likely NOT his detailed response to MLB or any other official investigation. I'm sure Braun & his attorneys don't figure a "take my word for it" will satisfy the actual investigation. On the other hand, if he didn't buy or take PEDs, how can he show that he didn't (see pebadger's post a couple pages ago) in a way that satisfies anyone inclined not to believe him? In all likelihood, most of those disbelievers -- whether investigators, MLB officials, or the public -- will never be satisfied, and that's just how it goes.

 

Braun's cooperation with the investigation should be expected to be totally honest. MLB is his employer (and specifically the Brewers' ballclub, of course), not the public. It's not the public's investigation, and it's not a public investigation or a public court trial. While his public image is obviously deemed by many -- including you -- to be at stake, that's not the same as his employment status being at stake.

 

No one has to like that some of these details are privileged and confidential, but they are, period, and some folks are just going to have to come to grips with never knowing the full story no matter how much they don't like it.

[brwrsfan]

Him failing the test is one thing, MLB had a right to try to suspend him for that. The "out to get him" part comes from the fact that they acted like a 2 year old girl throwing a temper tantrum after the fact. Issuing statements vehemntly disagreeing with the decision instead of just saying that the process worked as intended with the independent arbitrator. Then firing their arbitrator of 20 years (even though he was still good enough for the NFL).

 

They very clearly were unhappy with him not being suspended and I highly doubt those feelings have subsided in the last year. If anythinhg, they may look even harder at him this time because they think he didn't get the suspension he deserved last time. This is why I see no way that they ever make a public statement saying he has proved he is innocent.

[Ennder]

Yeah I assume that Braun probably is guilty but the actual proceeds since the leak have been a complete joke and make MLB look awful. I don't believe for 1 second that they would admit that he cooperated and showed proof that he did consult Bosh. They will do everything they possibly can to hide anything that makes Braun look clean. ESPN will do the exact same since they attacked him so strongly.

[JackNicholson1974]

Imagine if there hadnt been a leak last winter, Braun won the appeal and we never heard anything....then this, his names appears in the Bosch records for 20-30k. How would our reactions be different, since Braun probably wouldnt use the explanation about consulting about his appeal. Although, he could go with the Cervelli explanation, consult on injury.

[KCBrewerfan34]

I have a few questions, especially directed to the people who think Braun is guilty.

 

1. What is he doing buying $20,000-$30,000 which equals almost a lifetime supply.

2. Has a lawyer ever showed up in a ledger or in any PED scandal, the lawyer(s) would have to be beyond brain dead to get involed in something like that.

3. If Braun is a juicer since college like some have hinted at, how is the world has this guys body stayed almost the same since he was drafted. I would call that near impossible to pull off.

 

I maintained Braun was innocent last winter and I thought the statement he released this week was either the greatest story ever concocted or completely the truth.

 

 

If he doesn't get suspended I'm expecting 40+ Hr's again and Braun will be even more driven to prove the naysayers wrong.

 

 

GO BREW!

[RockCoCougars]

There is one thing that makes me think Braun is telling the truth, and that is, as discussed earlier, no one has gone to the media with any info on him juicing. I'm sure that they tried to find someone last winter as well. The other thing is that he can't be stupid enough to give his own name to the lab, can he? I suppose if he was showing up physically at the location, he'd pretty much have to, but if he's just buying the supplies/juice, why not have an 'associate' buy it for him. Actually, if he bought it himself, maybe that's why no one has come forward to rat him out. Also who'd be stupid enough to stiff one of these outfits for 30 grand? That might cause them to send out a 'little birdie' to get into some journalist's ear.

 

All that said, I'm about 40/60 on the whole thing right now. I agree with some of the others here that 'trust me, if you knew the real story...' soundbites aren't enough this time. I want a better explanation, and think that the fans/organization deserve one for mostly standing by Braun last time. Frankly, I don't think that any confidentiality agreement would preclude Braun from briefly detailing his side of the story. It's not like a legal settlement was reached with a gag order or something. Going further, Braun's camp has not initiated any legalities against anyone in the past year, so that seems doubtful at this point. Bottom line, by not taking any legal action and keeping quiet, Braun appears on the surface like a guy found not guilty at a trial where he took the fifth.

[Raw Biz]

It's not like a legal settlement was reached with a gag order or something. Going further, Braun's camp has not initiated any legalities against anyone in the past year, so that seems doubtful at this point. Bottom line, by not taking any legal action and keeping quiet, Braun appears on the surface like a guy found not guilty at a trial where he took the fifth.

 

The confidentiality stuff isn't just for in case Braun wants to initiate any proceedings. It's also going to protect him in case someone wants to initiate anything against him, which isn't out of the realm of possibility. Look at the proceedings against Bonds and Clemens. If Braun waived confidentiality now to just appease the fans, he could lose any confidentiality in the future if someone files a suit against him.

[RockCoCougars]

It's not like a legal settlement was reached with a gag order or something. Going further, Braun's camp has not initiated any legalities against anyone in the past year, so that seems doubtful at this point. Bottom line, by not taking any legal action and keeping quiet, Braun appears on the surface like a guy found not guilty at a trial where he took the fifth.

 

The confidentiality stuff isn't just for in case Braun wants to initiate any proceedings. It's also going to protect him in case someone wants to initiate anything against him, which isn't out of the realm of possibility. Look at the proceedings against Bonds and Clemens. If Braun waived confidentiality now to just appease the fans, he could lose any confidentiality in the future if someone files a suit against him.

 

I guess that I can see that, but if he's giving true statements to the press/fans, he shouldn't have to worry about any liability for slander etc. I would guess that he'd be more concerned about a perjury charge down the road (assuming that he gave sworn testimony to the arbitrator). Perjury is what they went after both Bonds and Clemens for. At any rate, if he's innocent, you'd think that he'd speak out to get the story out there. The fact that he's seemingly afraid to speak out seems to indicate the opposite- unless he's planning on bringing action against someone himself.

[Raw Biz]

I guess that I can see that, but if he's giving true statements to the press/fans, he shouldn't have to worry about any liability for slander etc. I would guess that he'd be more concerned about a perjury charge down the road (assuming that he gave sworn testimony to the arbitrator). Perjury is what they went after both Bonds and Clemens for. At any rate, if he's innocent, you'd think that he'd speak out to get the story out there. The fact that he's seemingly afraid to speak out seems to indicate the opposite- unless he's planning on bringing action against someone himself.

 

Did you read the Breen article quoting the lawyer or the article the lawyer actually wrote? It goes into depth about the legal side of things. I'm pretty sure the lawyer said she would advise Braun to do exactly what he has been doing, which is say nothing. They've already released a statement saying that he was consulted last year. Like I said, there's really not much else that should be done if you want to protect yourself down the road.

 

I know fans want to know the truth but say Braun does release some kind of paperwork. I'm sure a lot of fans will still have more questions after that. It's neverending because people have made up their minds already that he's guilty. He's just going to have to live with that and do what he's been doing, which is put up HOF numbers. Until MLB actually comes after him, Braun has no obligation to release anything and he really shouldn't. I just wish the mainstream media would stop turning this into a witchhunt and actually present an unbiased story, including how plausible Braun's story is, as well as the legal reasons why Braun hasn't released any paperwork or info. But unfortunately, all anyone cares about is making money and negativity sells better than anything.

[RockCoCougars]

Did you read the Breen article quoting the lawyer or the article the lawyer actually wrote? It goes into depth about the legal side of things. I'm pretty sure the lawyer said she would advise Braun to do exactly what he has been doing, which is say nothing. They've already released a statement saying that he was consulted last year. Like I said, there's really not much else that should be done if you want to protect yourself down the road.

 

Has a lawyer ever advised a client to be fully candid?

 

Anyway, none of us know whether Braun is being truthful or not. I hope that he's telling us the truth, but the skeptic in me has some doubt. Bottom line, it'd be hard to dispute two things here. First, if Braun played for the Cardinals with the same set of circumstances, we'd be all over him. Second, I believe that if he's not telling the truth and did juice in the past, he may escape this latest development, but some day the truth is going to come out. I hope that these athletes that issue blanket denials have been watching the Lance Armstrong stuff. For a while there, he was about as untouchable it gets, yet it all came crashing down.