Newest PED scandal: Braun named in Biogenesis clinic records (Reply #365: Additional mention found)

[RobDeer 45]

As I stated earlier, I'm having a hard time believing him at all, even though in my heart, that's what I want to do. I want to try and hold off on judgement, see what all comes out. But many people on ESPN radio made this statement, "If you were going to use someone as an expert wittness, the last place you'd go is to some sleezy dude selling drugs out of a back office, you'd consult a professional doctor." I know you can spin this but it sounds like this guy has a terrible reputation and therefore would be a horrible expert wittness. Ya he has experience with these drugs but you wouldn't grab a dope dealer to put in your corner if you were on trial and needed a wittness to talk about the effect of high levels of THC in your system.

[Ennder]

Will Carroll said it is completely believable and the list of people they consulted is a page long. He is also one of the guys who said there was more to the story and since he still supports Braun I'm guessing he knows more than what we do.

[Outlander]

As a previous linked article noted there are different degrees of expert consultants, if used as a consultant they never had any intention of having them talk during the trial or used as a witness, they wer behind the scenes experts.

[RobDeer 45]

As a previous linked article noted there are different degrees of expert consultants, if used as a consultant they never had any intention of having them talk during the trial or used as a witness, they wer behind the scenes experts.

 

Good point, that makes sense. Just heard a lot of that yesterday so I started to see where they were coming from. Didn't think about that angle.

[homer]

As a previous linked article noted there are different degrees of expert consultants, if used as a consultant they never had any intention of having them talk during the trial or used as a witness, they wer behind the scenes experts.

 

Good point, that makes sense. Just heard a lot of that yesterday so I started to see where they were coming from. Didn't think about that angle.

 

Right and he was a "consultant" not an "expert witness". There's a big difference.

[bani1717]

Braun clearly bought 10x the level synthetic testosterone compared to what others buy. That explains his test results and his enormous bill.

 

But seriously, the theory that Bosch may have been the leak is especially intriguing... Honestly with everything that's happened I could see Braun being guilty or innocent, but I'm kind of leaning toward innocent at this point.

[ilikewisco]

As a previous linked article noted there are different degrees of expert consultants, if used as a consultant they never had any intention of having them talk during the trial or used as a witness, they wer behind the scenes experts.

 

But if they never used him how could Braun have a bill of 20 to 30 grand. It seems a little sketchy to me. I don't know what the going rate for consultations are but I can't see it being that high if they never even used the guy. I am skeptical and don't really see how Braun deserves the benefit of the doubt in this instance.

[brewerfan82]

If nothing else, I'm hoping Braun's innocent just because the way it unfolds will be much more interesting than him finally admitting he's just been lying the whole time.

 

I imagine Bosch COULD have just been a preliminary consultant even if they knew he wouldn't be a good witness to bring to trial. He may have provided them with information and ideas to present to more legitimate consultants.

 

As far as the large bill, I seem to remember Braun's defense team bringing up that they had performed (or tried to perform) different experiments of sorts to reproduce how a clean urine sample could be mishandled to show a false positive. Perhaps Bosch's clinic was somehow involved in these potentially costly trials?

[Fear The Chorizo]

But seriously, the theory that Bosch may have been the leak is especially intriguing... Honestly with everything that's happened I could see Braun being guilty or innocent, but I'm kind of leaning toward innocent at this point.

 

IIRC, ESPN was the outlet that broke Braun's positive test after the currently unknown source tipped them on it. TJ Quinn knows who that source is. Funny how ESPN was among the last sports news outlets that picked up the recent developments on Braun's name in Bosch's records after it was everywhere in the media, and TJ Quinn has been very hesitant to even paint a link between Braun & PEDs from Bosch/Biogenesis. There are alot of signs pointing to Bosch being that unknown source right now if you look at the history of the whole story:

 

- MLB emphatically denied the leak of Braun's failed test coming from them

- Braun's team indicating it likely came from one of the consultants they used when preparing for the hearing

- Braun's statement indicating a payment dispute for Bosch's consulting services during his appeal

- Braun's lead attorney indicating Bosch's contributions were "negligible" with the appeal

- Braun and one of his other attorneys having their names in these clinic notes/records, without direct links to PEDs

- The paper who broke this story not including Braun's name initially because they couldn't link him directly to PEDs with the full set of documents they reviewed to write the story.

 

The other ironic thing about Braun's statement is that he's the only player on Bosch's list that has openly acknowledged a relationship with Bosch and provided a reasonable explanation why his name shows up in Bosch's ledger. All the other players listed are in total deny mode or have shied away completely from making statements. If Braun needed to make up a story, I would think he would have conjured up something that distances himself from Bosch. He knows he's inviting everyone to try and look into this story further - not something I'd want if I'm trying to hide from the truth, especially when I'd have no idea what sort of evidence there may or may not be out there.

[Raw Biz]

As a previous linked article noted there are different degrees of expert consultants, if used as a consultant they never had any intention of having them talk during the trial or used as a witness, they wer behind the scenes experts.

 

But if they never used him how could Braun have a bill of 20 to 30 grand. It seems a little sketchy to me. I don't know what the going rate for consultations are but I can't see it being that high if they never even used the guy. I am skeptical and don't really see how Braun deserves the benefit of the doubt in this instance.

 

That's why Braun said there is dispute as to how much he was owed. The guy thinks he deserves 20/30 grand but Braun's team doesn't, most likely because they didn't use whatever he told them. It actually makes perfect sense that he was the leak. Braun consulted him, he demanded 20/30 grand, Braun's team said that was outrageous because he didn't really give them anything useful, he gets pissed and leaks the story.

[Ennder]

Not to mention why would Braun's bill be a range while everyone else just had a number.

[Warning Track Power]

The other ironic thing about Braun's statement is that he's the only player on Bosch's list that has openly acknowledged a relationship with Bosch and provided a reasonable explanation why his name shows up in Bosch's ledger. All the other players listed are in total deny mode or have shied away completely from making statements. If Braun needed to make up a story, I would think he would have conjured up something that distances himself from Bosch. He knows he's inviting everyone to try and look into this story further - not something I'd want if I'm trying to hide from the truth, especially when I'd have no idea what sort of evidence there may or may not be out there.

FTC: This may be the most compelling argument for me that Braun is telling the truth. Every other player has denied Bosch except Braun. Why admit a relationship if you're Braun and Braun's team if it isn't true?

 

Either Braun is telling the truth or he is so beyond confident in his lying abilities that he has begun to believe the lie himself. I find it more likely to be the former than the latter.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Not to mention why would Braun's bill be a range while everyone else just had a number.

 

Great point. I know it isn't like picking up prescriptions from Walgreens, but when the players linked to PEDs by the story have a single cost for what they owed by their names (and often a description of what PEDs it was for in other records), why wouldn't there be a similar detail for Braun, who apparently owed a ton more than the other players? Having a payment dispute of $10K over purchase of PEDs probably isn't something a professional athlete wants when working with a drug dealer.

[burnzy24]

Not to mention why would Braun's bill be a range while everyone else just had a number.

 

 

Great point. If this bill was in fact for PED's it would make no sense to include a range of payment due which had a $10k difference between the high and low number.

[fondybrewfan]

I thought one guy said he did order stuff from Boesch but that it was a completely legal supplement? Cervelli perhaps?

[RobDeer 45]

You guys are doing a good job of making me feel better about this! Thanks....I think???

 

Free Braun!

[monty57]

I thought one guy said he did order stuff from Boesch but that it was a completely legal supplement? Cervelli perhaps?

 

Cervelli said something like "I called all over looking for legal ways to help my foot heal. Biogenesis is one place I called, but never used them."

[dhoffman19]

But if they never used him how could Braun have a bill of 20 to 30 grand. It seems a little sketchy to me. I don't know what the going rate for consultations are but I can't see it being that high if they never even used the guy. I am skeptical and don't really see how Braun deserves the benefit of the doubt in this instance.

 

I think (unless I missed something more definitive), that the "$20-30 grand" is only from Bosch's notes - in other words, what he wanted to collect from Braun. It may have no basis in reality, and Braun's camp may never have agreed to pay him that much - hence the dispute.

[reillymcshane]

Jim Breen at Disciples of Uecker has an article about why Braun isn't proving he hired Bosch:

 

http://disciplesofuecker.com/why-wont-braun-prove-relationship-with-bosch/7854

 

It's pretty interesting. Some is a rehash of the thing Wendy Thurm reported on Fangraphs, but there's some more info, going into detail about the problems he could incur if he handed over information.

 

I'd read it, but here's the wrap up:

 

Essentially, Braun and his attorneys could open a Pandora’s Box down the road to potentially save face regarding this one (very flimsy) report by Yahoo! Sports. Legally, according to this source, it would be safer for Braun to simply ride out the storm and live to fight another day, rather than fight this report and leave himself vulnerable to future, more significant attacks from Major League Baseball.

 

Whether that’s morally comforting is unimportant when discussing whether an individual should consider waiving his privileges in legal matters. Ryan Braun and his legal team are simply doing what’s best to protect Ryan Braun right now and in the future.

[dlk9s]

I thought one guy said he did order stuff from Boesch but that it was a completely legal supplement? Cervelli perhaps?

 

Cervelli said something like "I called all over looking for legal ways to help my foot heal. Biogenesis is one place I called, but never used them."

 

Yes, he used them:

 

"Following my foot injury in March 2011, I consulted with a number of experts, including Biogenesis clinic, for legal ways to aid my rehab and recovery. I purchased supplements that I am certain were not prohibited by MLB."

[ilikewisco]

I think (unless I missed something more definitive), that the "$20-30 grand" is only from Bosch's notes - in other words, what he wanted to collect from Braun. It may have no basis in reality, and Braun's camp may never have agreed to pay him that much - hence the dispute.

 

But your arguement really has no basis in reality either. Braun has not shown any evidence he really used Bosch for consultation. Until I see any real evidence I will assume that money was for PED's. He will have to prove his innocence before I believe anything he's saying. Talk is cheap.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I think (unless I missed something more definitive), that the "$20-30 grand" is only from Bosch's notes - in other words, what he wanted to collect from Braun. It may have no basis in reality, and Braun's camp may never have agreed to pay him that much - hence the dispute.

 

But your arguement really has no basis in reality either. Braun has not shown any evidence he really used Bosch for consultation. Until I see any real evidence I will assume that money was for PED's. He will have to prove his innocence before I believe anything he's saying. Talk is cheap.

 

So is having your name written on a notepad being considered hard evidence of PED use. But, that's where we're at, apparently

[Raw Biz]

I think (unless I missed something more definitive), that the "$20-30 grand" is only from Bosch's notes - in other words, what he wanted to collect from Braun. It may have no basis in reality, and Braun's camp may never have agreed to pay him that much - hence the dispute.

 

But your arguement really has no basis in reality either. Braun has not shown any evidence he really used Bosch for consultation. Until I see any real evidence I will assume that money was for PED's. He will have to prove his innocence before I believe anything he's saying. Talk is cheap.

 

People need to realize that Braun might not be able to provide proof. There is more to this than just saying "yeah I consulted with him, here's proof." There are tons of confidentiality things that would come into play (work-product, attorney-client privilege, etc.). Braun might not be dealing with any legal repercussions at the moment but he could down the road. It might be more important to maintain that confidentiality for potential litigation down the road than just to clear his name with the fans now.

[ilikewisco]

All I'm saying is I doubt Bosch had his name on a list for no reason. And if we are agreeing A-rod was being supplied by Bosch, why should we assume Braun was not. I agree none of this definitively makes Braun guilty, but there was a reason he was on the list. And I'm not willing to take his word on it. See Occam's razor.

[brwrsfan]

So if I'm reading that article right, Braun is unlikely to product any documents that can prove his innocence (if he has them)...and that we're once again having to take him for his word.

 

Granted, his name on a piece of paper is really all we have to view, but for many...this coupled with last years incident will make him guilty forever.