Brewers still active; Lohse/Backup MI/backup 1b

[TooLiveBrew]

B. "Worst farms in baseball" just plain isn't true.

 

Yes, yes it is.

 

 

I'd agree with anyone's assertion that we lack true "blue chip," seemingly-sure-fire-future-All-Stars, but that doesn't negate the numerous quality players ascending through the ranks.

 

The lack of blue chip talents is exactly why the Brewers' farm system is one of the worst in MLB. Every organization has players that project to merely be solid big-leaguers/bench players/"quality players".

[TheCrew07]

When did the Rays trade CarlCrawford?

 

Oops for some reason I thought they traded him, just makes my point stronger though. The Rays haven't traded much hitting because it has never been a position of depth for them. They trade pitching because they always have a bunch more coming.

 

I have to believe there's no way you're looking at other organizations on anything more than a superficial level. The continual over generalizations and blind support of Melvin and by extension the Brewers is maddening given the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

TB built their franchise on pitching but that doesn't mean they don't have hitting, they just draft more pitching than hitting and rightly so. They don't continue to trade pitching because they have so much of it... they cycle pitching because it makes sense to flip older players for younger and more productive versions of the same guy. You know, the same trades that Monty, I, and many others have been suggesting for years. They make trades that Melvin never would, like flipping Shields, Garza, and Jackson in the off-season (not waiting for the trade deadline in the final year of a player's contract). They also traded young hitting to get young pitching, Young/Garza, flipped a closer for Jackson, and traded a starter at the end of his rope for Kazmir. That's how they got good... it wasn't luck, it wasn't great drafting, it was identifying 2 points about pitching. 1) That pitching was severely undervalued at the time and 2) that in order to compete with teams that have greater resources you need to be able to develop and maintain your own rotation.

 

TB has drafted some very exciting position players and they've had a super prospect recently in Desmond Jennings who I enjoyed following in the SL in 2009 when he played for Montgomery. B.J. Upton hasn't been great but he was a super prospect and 2nd over-all pick, and Matt Joyce was acquired when they flipped Jackson. That's not a world beater outfield, there's no Braun tearing the cover off the ball, but with their pitching they don't need to have a Braun to win games. Looking at their 2012 team they basically only need significant upgrades at 1B and DH, but they've always been thin at those 2 positions as an organization, which is why I wanted to flip Fielder that direction in 2008-09. Since they've gotten going with pitching their drafting has been more balanced, but even TB's draft philosophy is different than the Brewers, just about every pick in the top 10-15 rounds each year is a high risk/high upside type player. Many fail, but some pan out, because it's very difficult to project HS kids to MLB when they've even left home.

 

I always point to the Rays because my philosophies about baseball line up perfectly with what that organization has done. So how about some other examples, like Cards who I've posted about on the minor league forum as they've dominated us over-all since 2006. They've won 2 World Series and still managed to have a stacked a farm system. How about the Cubs who traded a young relief pitcher for Rizzo and are loaded with good young positional talent but have the money to spend in FA on a top tier pitcher when they are ready to make a move. Instead of whining about the Pirates pocketing money (which they never did) or poking fun at them about trying something different from a training standpoint, look at how much impact talent they have ready and near ready to MLB? What about Cincy who already has a better MLB roster and a better farm system than the Brewers?

 

It's impossible to make this stuff up, there's too much information readily available on the internet. I'm not some Brewer fanboy that's just going accept whatever Melvin or M.A. choose to do, and I called my shot on Attanasio's meddling on the MLB side on a long time ago. I disagree completely with the notion that moves which supposedly maximize the MLB team's chances in a given year are necessary or in the best interests of the franchise in the near or long term. I find it hard to believe that someone as smart as you appear to be Ennder isn't capable of seeing an obvious pattern that keeps repeating itself here... sign middling aging FA pitchers to shore up the rotation, trade for an expensive CY short term solution, repeat.

 

We've won 1 division crown and 1 play-off series since 2006, that's a borderline criminal record with the positional talent which Melvin was gifted with through the system. Seriously... Weeks, Hardy, Hart, Braun, and Fielder have all been all-stars and 2 of those guys have played at a HOF caliber level. The system didn't give him impact pitching and yet he did nothing to acquire young impact pitching over the years and here we are again: The cycle repeats itself signing another severely overrated and aging pitching for too much money, and no I don't care that he was asking for 15 mil/year and we got him for less than that, he's not a bargain.

 

I used to try to make my point trade by trade, other posters and myself have pointed out numerous times how bad the MLB team has been from a pitching standpoint over the years, we've also listed numerous examples of other teams having a sustained run of success without using a "window" strategy, we've talked about the horribly weakened farm system, we've talked about the scouting department being raided by other organizations, we've talked about the lack of impact pitching as an organization for years, and yet the reality still escapes many posters whom frequent this site. It's one thing to disagree based on well thought out arguments that have merit, it's another to disagree with throw away generalities like calling possible moves that could been made fantasy, and generally be dismissive without really considering the evidence in front of you.

 

There's one man who's responsible for everything, there's one man who's job it is to build a solid organization than can sustain itself. Can anyone honestly look at what Melvin has done as the GM of the Brewers and say the organization as a whole is better off today than it was when it took the helm in the early 2000s? We had a crappy MLB team with a loaded farm system, now we have an averagish MLB team with an aging roster and crappy farm system that isn't able to cycle out the talent we have. Fielder is gone, Hardy is gone, soon Weeks and Hart will be gone, and with them the limited success Melvin has seen as a GM. I would submit that at least 10 current GMs in baseball would have gotten more out of the positional talent that Brewers graduated to MLB, that core was going to win no matter who the GM was. Melvin is an average to below average GM, he's not terrible, but he's not good enough for a market like Milwaukee where every dollar/asset has to be utilized to it's full potential. His record in FA is terrible, his record signing extensions with bad players is terrible, many of his moves are purely reactionary in nature, he doesn't assign value to players properly, and he lets the market dictate his strategy to him. He's essentially the same guy as he was in Texas... not terrible, but not good either.

[recte44]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/03/red-sox-release-lyle-overbay.html

 

Red Sox released Lyle Overbay. Do we bite?

[yoshii8]

I bet we do. Just seems like an obvious DM move.

[PeaveyFury]

Can anyone honestly look at what Melvin has done as the GM of the Brewers and say the organization as a whole is better off today than it was when it took the helm in the early 2000s?

 

My goodness yes. We've had two playoff appearances in the last 5 seasons after having none in the previous 20 before he got here.

 

You don't like the way he's built the team- that's well documented. But don't let your dislike of their methods cloud your judgement on the merits of what has been done here.

[homer]

I seriously doubt the Brewers would trade Davis with rumors of another Braun investigation in the works....at least I hope they wouldn't.

[yoshii8]

Any interesting 1b/OF veterans out there that might get released, or available for trade? I'm not confortable at all w/ Sea Bass as our starting 1b. If Hart misses a whole month I think it could come back to bite us.

[monty57]

Can anyone honestly look at what Melvin has done as the GM of the Brewers and say the organization as a whole is better off today than it was when it took the helm in the early 2000s?

 

My goodness yes. We've had two playoff appearances in the last 5 seasons after having none in the previous 20 before he got here.

 

You don't like the way he's built the team- that's well documented. But don't let your dislike of their methods cloud your judgement on the merits of what has been done here.

 

 

I guess the question could be: "Could anyone with reasonable intelligence have taken over a team with Fielder, Weeks, Hart, Hardy, etc in the system, an escalating payroll with a new ambitious owner, and Jack Z & crew running the drafts, all at a time when the NL Central was considered the weakest in baseball, and still have made at least two playoff appearances?"

 

Don't get me wrong, I lived through many years of bad Brewer baseball and am glad to have some playoff memories, but Taylor's the guy who inherited a bad system top-to-bottom and got us headed in the right direction. He got fired for one bad free agent signing (Hammonds), and Melvin took over a franchise on the rise. He could certainly have blown things up by trading away the prospects he inherited to try to win right away, but I think he gets more credit for turning things around then he should. I also worry that his big spending ways and inability to build a decent farm will at some point in the not-too-distant future lead us to a period not unlike the 1990's in Milwaukee (or at least present-day Houston because at least we won't have the Selig clan running things).

 

I think Melvin planned his "window" to close right around when he was scheduled to retire. Then he got an extension offer and decided to stick it out, so he's now pulling out all the stops to win in the next two years. The next guy's probably going to inherit a mess.

[MNBrew]

Can anyone honestly look at what Melvin has done as the GM of the Brewers and say the organization as a whole is better off today than it was when it took the helm in the early 2000s?

 

My goodness yes. We've had two playoff appearances in the last 5 seasons after having none in the previous 20 before he got here.

 

You don't like the way he's built the team- that's well documented. But don't let your dislike of their methods cloud your judgement on the merits of what has been done here.

 

 

I guess the question could be: "Could anyone with reasonable intelligence have taken over a team with Fielder, Weeks, Hart, Hardy, etc in the system, an escalating payroll with a new ambitious owner, and Jack Z & crew running the drafts, all at a time when the NL Central was considered the weakest in baseball, and still have made at least two playoff appearances?"

 

Don't get me wrong, I lived through many years of bad Brewer baseball and am glad to have some playoff memories, but Taylor's the guy who inherited a bad system top-to-bottom and got us headed in the right direction. He got fired for one bad free agent signing (Hammonds), and Melvin took over a franchise on the rise. He could certainly have blown things up by trading away the prospects he inherited to try to win right away, but I think he gets more credit for turning things around then he should. I also worry that his big spending ways and inability to build a decent farm will at some point in the not-too-distant future lead us to a period not unlike the 1990's in Milwaukee (or at least present-day Houston because at least we won't have the Selig clan running things).

 

I think Melvin planned his "window" to close right around when he was scheduled to retire. Then he got an extension offer and decided to stick it out, so he's now pulling out all the stops to win in the next two years. The next guy's probably going to inherit a mess.

I guess people will see what they want to see. Monty, could you possibly ever admit it if Melvin proved to have done a good job? Does the degree to which he's well-regarded by his GM colleagues carry any credibility in your eyes?

 

Jack Z. drafted good-hitting position players, many of whom were lousy fielders, and pitchers who mostly couldn't make it up to the top of the system -- whether the issue was the Brewers' failure to develop them or not, it can't lie solely on the team's shoulders -- as evidenced by the fact that we kept having to try to bring in top-caliber pitching from other organizations.

 

What I think will be an interesting lens to look through will be the general success rate of the Brewers' pitching prospects' development since the year when Rick Peterson was the pitching coach and he was at the core of developing a system-wide pitching plan & scouting approach. . . . To me, it's one sign of a good GM when he can see what's generally not working and be open to totally re-thinking how to improve the situation, as they did with this systemic approach to drafting & developing pitching.

 

In a market like Milwaukee, when success on the field results in attendance around 3,000,000 for multiple years running, you have to be mindful of both the present & the future, and it's a very delicate balance. If they went all-young & cheap, justified or not, you'd have oodles of fans (arguably less "deep" in their baseball savviness, but still a large portion of the ticket-buying public) up in arms that they weren't investing that LARGE revenue right back into the payroll. . . . I'm not sure signing Kyle Lohse was the absolute best decision. However, I'm not sure it's exactly idiotic, either, or "yet another sign" that Melvin's a spend-a-holic. Since the best offense in the NL is returning almost fully intact PLUS set up far better at SS, the bullpen's notably improved, & it's fairly obvious that the biggest question mark going into this season is the youth in the rotation, just how long does Melvin go before bringing in an affordable reinforcement to Gallardo & Estrada when...

 

- Rogers loses not only his command but also serious velocity,

- Fiers keep pitching in ST against relatively easy competition like he did over his last 10 starts,

- Narveson's ability to remain fully healthy all year is hardly a reliable thing given his surgery less than a year ago (I'm not convinced he's the Adrian Peterson of pitchers), and

- it's pretty obvious they're giving Peralta a good-length leash at the MLB level?

 

It was pretty well established at the time of Dean Taylor's firing that he did good work on the drafting/scouting side of things, but he was completely out of his league when it came to putting together reasonable talent at the major-league level.

[PeaveyFury]

I guess the question could be: "Could anyone with reasonable intelligence have taken over a team with Fielder, Weeks, Hart, Hardy, etc in the system, an escalating payroll with a new ambitious owner, and Jack Z & crew running the drafts, all at a time when the NL Central was considered the weakest in baseball, and still have made at least two playoff appearances?"

 

 

Franchise on the rise, sure. But Braun and Gallardo weren't in the system yet. And astute trades for Sabathia and Greinke along with the construction of the rest of the rosters is what got the team to the playoffs- not just Weeks, Hardy, Hart and Fielder.

[monty57]

Monty, could you possibly ever admit it if Melvin proved to have done a good job?

 

Sure. I don't think Melvin's an idiot. I think he's done a decent job at GM, which is why I prefaced my question with "anyone with reasonable intelligence." Could you randomly pick a GM from another franchise and have the success we've had given what Melvin had to work with? If you're 50/50 with the guys out there, then that would put Melvin in the "average GM" books.

 

I actually liked how he was building the team through the beginning of his tenure. I just think that at some point he decided on the year he'd retire, so he set up the team to have the best chance to win a World Series before he retired, turning a long-term strategy into a short-term, "win now" plan. Then, he decided to stick it out a few more years, so he's piled on a bunch of big money deals once again to win before he retires. I wish he'd have stuck to the longer-term view, which I think he may have done had he been younger.

 

Right now, the team to me looks too much like a watered-down version of the 2007/2008 Cubs, and I don't like how that ended. Well, I like how it ended for the Cubs, I don't want to see the Brewers needing to go through a decade-long rebuild. I just wouldn't want to be the guy taking over when Melvin retires, as I think that "the next guy" at GM is going to be stuck sorting out a mess and will forever be hated by Wisconsin sports fans.

[yoshii8]

Juan Rivera just released by the Yanks. Maybe he could come in and play 1b and be the 5th OF when Hart comes back?

[PrinceEatMeat]

Juan Rivera just released by the Yanks. Maybe he could come in and play 1b and be the 5th OF when Hart comes back?

 

They had interest before he signed with the Yankees, but I don't see it now. Would be too righty heavy on the bench. Now Gonzalez has stepped in at 1B. Although, a guy who can also play OF would make a lot of sense.

[jerichoholicninja]

They could just release Yuni. Gonzalez takes Yuni's utility role and Rivera starts at first. Makes sense but won't happen.

[MNBrew]

Once Green's healthy, assuming they don't option him to AAA, they'd have no need for Rivera & would then already have the guy to take Davis' or Lalli's roster spot (assuming one of them makes the final cut & that we'll start w/ a 13-man staff). Green can competently play 3 of 4 IF spots & not-crappily play 2 corner OF spots, which is more versatile than probably any other current/projected reserve.

[monty57]

Once Green's healthy, assuming they don't option him to AAA, they'd have no need for Rivera & would then already have the guy to take Davis' or Lalli's roster spot (assuming one of them makes the final cut & that we'll start w/ a 13-man staff). Green can competently play 3 of 4 IF spots & not-crappily play 2 corner OF spots, which is more versatile than probably any other current/projected reserve.

 

Roenicke was quoted as saying that Green is too slow to play the OF, so he's not in line to help out in the OF. Although I agree with Jericho, that Rivera makes a lot of sense, I'm pretty sure we'll go with Schafer and Davis as the 4/5 OFs.

 

Yuni had three hits and a HR in his lone spring training game with the Brewers. Be prepared to see a lot of Yuni, potentially as our starting 1B. I'd be shocked if he isn't on the team all season, with Green spending the year in AAA. My big worry is that with Yuni and Gonzalez on the roster, all it'll take is a short dry spell for Segura to be benched in favor of one of the vets.

[derflotr]

I know the 40-man roster is pretty rigid at this point, but here come the corner infield DFAs - Mauro Gomez, Zack Cox...

[nate82]

I know the 40-man roster is pretty rigid at this point, but here come the corner infield DFAs - Mauro Gomez, Zack Cox...

 

I would make room on the 40 for Cox.

[SoupTown]

I agree with the earlier comment that having a backup shortstop as your first couple of months first baseman is the biggest mistake of Doug's winter. It is a huge mistake.

 

In trolling through MLBTRADERUMORS I find the Blue Jays (after claiming Lars Anderson have now designated him for assignment). 6' 4" left hand first basebman called a 'former top propsect'. He did play a smatter for the Red Sox the last three years (debuted at age 22). At AAA he is an .800 OPS guy.

 

From Yahoo Sports: Lars was a top prospect in the Red Sox organization for a number of years, but hasn't made the jump to the majors. He was Baseball America's 40th best prospect before the 2008 season, moved up to 17th in 2009 then dropped to 87th the next year. In 6 minor league seasons, he has hit .272/.369/.432. He never developed the power that many expected.

 

If we think our AA and AAA guys are not read for a couple months at first, a guy like this cannot harm. Honestly, it would be so much better to give a real youngish first baseman a 'go'. Surely, it is better than Alex - and then there is no need for Yuni. I wait for the day Yuni starts at short (our third string SS and Alex at 1st - our 2nd string short). But we could always use backup catchers at first Doug, Doug, Doug! What are you doing.

 

It will only cost us a game or two, I guess. That will not matter... will it.

[Eye Black]

Well following the Jose Reyes ankle injury the Blue Jays are now in need of a SS. Watching the Blue Jays telecast they are speculating the Jays may reach out to some teams with SS depth. As DM once said, Yuni B is a major league shortstop. Adam Lind in return maybe? Or maybe they will just pay cash.

[TooLiveBrew]

I would pay them to take him

[trwi7]

And you would be paying them if you took Adam Lind, over $7 million still guaranteed to him. Though if the Jays do come calling, I would be more than willing to accept the $1 we took for Wil Nieves.