My 2013 Hall of Fame Ballot Would Be...

[Ennder]

They were no more illegal than say smoking pot was though. In 1991 they were unofficially said to be against the rules in a memo that carried no power. They were actually written against the rules in 2002 but there was no penalty put in place until 2005. If you are talking moral compass they were no worse than greenies or using a spitball. If you are talking how much impact did they have on the stats it is a larger effect but not nearly as large as people want to claim.

[SRB]

I'm not saying Luis Gonzalez did or did not do steroids. He may have, he may not have. I don't know. But I think people who assume steroids can make you hit 30 more homers per season are overstating the effects of what they can do for you.

 

Barry Bonds would disagree with you, he became jealous of Sosa and McGwire and wanted to show everyone how great the best player on the planet would be on steroids and it turned out to be better than Sosa and Mcgwire.

There is very little evidence that steroids give you a significant advantage. The magical effects of steroids have turned into a giant myth.

 

To explain Barry Bonds's stats it is just as credible to think that at the tail end of his career his unparalleled batting eye just made him a more effective/consistent power hitter. His BB% and AVG also spiked in the same years. Is that because of steroids? Or was he just hitting more HR because he was seeing the ball so amazingly well? If you only swing at fat pitches you are going to hit a lot of HR.

 

Let's not forget that he hit 46 HR in 1993 as a guy with the physique of Craig Counsell.

[RockCoCougars]

There is very little evidence that steroids give you a significant advantage. The magical effects of steroids have turned into a giant myth.

 

I strongly disagree. Ask anyone who has done them and will discuss their effects candidly.

 

To explain Barry Bonds's stats it is just as credible to think that at the tail end of his career his unparalleled batting eye just made him a more effective/consistent power hitter. His BB% and AVG also spiked in the same years. Is that because of steroids? Or was he just hitting more HR because he was seeing the ball so amazingly well? If you only swing at fat pitches you are going to hit a lot of HR.

 

Steroids are taken to improve 'twitch' muscle reaction, and in turn, bat speed. Think about it, if roids increased Bonds' bat speed by even 5 percent, he'd be able to wait an extra few feet/microseconds to make his decision whether to swing at a given pitch. To me, that should improve both contact rate and batting 'eye'.

[SRB]

I strongly disagree. Ask anyone who has done them and will discuss their effects candidly.

 

Steroids are taken to improve 'twitch' muscle reaction, and in turn, bat speed. Think about it, if roids increased Bonds' bat speed by even 5 percent, he'd be able to wait an extra few feet/microseconds to make his decision whether to swing at a given pitch. To me, that should improve both contact rate and batting 'eye'.

Players will swear that corked bats help too, but science says otherwise. Players took "greenies" for decades but I'm not sure they actually affected performance to any appreciable degree. The placebo effect/confirmation bias can be pretty powerful.

 

I would be interested in any scientific or otherwise credible studies saying that steroids do what you say they do, because the claim that they increase bat speed sounds dubious to me. And the claim that they increase power seems entirely based on the mistaken notion that having big arms = hitting the baseball further, which I would say has been refuted convincingly elsewhere.

[Katuluu]

 

True it's not a smoking gun, but back acne is well known as a side effect of steroid use.

 

It's also a well known side effect of being male.

[LouisEly]

There is very little evidence that steroids give you a significant advantage. The magical effects of steroids have turned into a giant myth.

 

To explain Barry Bonds's stats it is just as credible to think that at the tail end of his career his unparalleled batting eye just made him a more effective/consistent power hitter. His BB% and AVG also spiked in the same years. Is that because of steroids? Or was he just hitting more HR because he was seeing the ball so amazingly well?

 

It has been reported that certain types of steroids such as HGH and THG, one of the designer steroids supplied by BALCO, improve eyesight, reflexes, and strength. Supposedly in "Game of Shadows", Bonds said steroids improved his vision.

 

There are many different types of steroids, each with different effects (designed and side). Established ethics of scientific testing though have prohibited clinical testing on healthy athletes, so there are no official scientific studies that prove or disprove it.

[SRB]

It has been reported that certain types of steroids such as HGH and THG, one of the designer steroids supplied by BALCO, improve eyesight, reflexes, and strength. Supposedly in "Game of Shadows", Bonds said steroids improved his vision.

 

There are many different types of steroids, each with different effects (designed and side). Established ethics of scientific testing though have prohibited clinical testing on healthy athletes, so there are no official scientific studies that prove or disprove it.

Those are the type of magical effects that I am talking about. What is the mechanism for how steroids supposedly improve eyesight? Is there any actual evidence (where is this reported)?

 

It is all hearsay based on two things: (1) the media's relentless campaign against the Evils of Steroids and Steroid-Users, (2) the initial assumption that a guy with big comic-book muscles is going to hit more HR. The latter point is NOT TRUE. That is not how the art/science of baseball works.

[Ennder]

The only studies I've seen suggest that the effects of steroids are minimal at best. But even if they are just being used to keep you at 100% all year that is certainly an advantage.

[brewcrewdue80]

From what I know following health forums/ men's fitness magazines and such:

 

Steroids help you perform longer in the gym. You are getting more from a workout than you would be able to without steroids. This added gym time results in the added muscles both slow and fast twitch. This makes the player perform better.

 

So, yes, I do have honest belief that steroids makes a 15-20hr guy become 40hrs. a 35-40hr guy become 50+. Without using steroids they wouldn't be able to take their body to the levels they took them as rather than bench 200 6-8times they suddenly are benching 250 12-15 reps! A year later, they are benching 300 15-20 reps.

 

It's known that low reps are designed to build the slow twitch. but when you take it beyond 12 and approach 20reps you are starting off using the fast twitch muscles. In my example benching 200 6-8times wouldn't have an impact on fast twitch. When you take the higher weight 250-300 and you're 12+reps not only are they engaging their fast twist muscle fibers they are doing them at a 25-50% increase in strength on the slow twitch muscles alone but its the fast twitch they are improving.

 

And I get it on well they all were doing steroids so those guys were the best of their era. That's Bull! They all weren't doing steroids. Even if it was 40-60% that were that's 40-60% who were playing at a big disadvantage. Add to it just after the expansions there're going to be quite a few AAA pitchers pitching vs. these suped up All-Stars.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/home-run-rates-in-1998-and-2012/

Recent article. Argues how the HR Rate has stayed the same. But if 17% K rate then to 20%K rate now. And the HR % has declined steadily over the last 6years in 3year spans. To me, suggests that A, even with both sides using steroids that hitters gained more from steroid use and B that Steroids did in fact make hitter bat speed improved to avoid striking out as often.

 

How about 9straight seasons over 5,000HRs while only 1 in past 6 went over 5,000?

Or as someone else in the comments mentioned why were there 13players to hit over 50HRs between 1997-2001 and we've only had 1 hit over 50 since 2008 even though 2012 had a rise in HR Rate % near those seasons but none to exceed 50.

 

Take it as you will. I've haven't used steroids in the gym, but have used a Creatine product that clearly states wouldn't meet drug testing regulations in sports. I feel a buzz effect within minutes if ingestion and when lifting the ability to handle more weight/reps than in my previous history lifting. So who knows when steroids were being applied? Was it at game time? or just for use in the gym? But after my creatine experience I absolutely know that products like it and or steroids can boost performance immediately.

[Ennder]

So, yes, I do have honest belief that steroids makes a 15-20hr guy become 40hrs. a 35-40hr guy become 50+

 

You can believe this but it is completely absurd to believe it. Unless you honestly think that only like 5 or 6 guys did steroids in the entire steroid era. It might turn a 35 HR guy into a 45 HR guy but that is the absolute max that makes any sense given the time frame and how players performed during it. The expansion teams and the juiced balls almost certainly did more than steroids in creating HR in that period. Not really any logical argument that says otherwise unless you think steroids were a minor issue instead of the major issue it sounds like they were.

 

I mean seriously if every 15 HR guy turned into a 40 HR guy because of steroids we'd have seen 10k plus HR in that era.

[brewcrewdue80]

So, yes, I do have honest belief that steroids makes a 15-20hr guy become 40hrs. a 35-40hr guy become 50+

 

You can believe this but it is completely absurd to believe it. Unless you honestly think that only like 5 or 6 guys did steroids in the entire steroid era.

 

 

No I don't believe only 5 or 6guys did steroids. I don't believe it was over 40% honestly like it's made out as being.

 

I mean seriously if every 15 HR guy turned into a 40 HR guy because of steroids we'd have seen 10k plus HR in that era.

 

 

Well, let's think of what may separate a 10-15hr guy to a 30-40HR guy. How about their workout routines? These guys have power through using the gym lifting, whereas a 10-15hr guy while he may use the gym it's not as likely to be with lifting weights but cardio and maintenance.

 

Some people can handle spending 2-4hours a day in the gym or more 5-7days a week. Others, may be a 1-3hour type 5-7days a week. Then you have your types who may only hit the gym 1-3 times a week. Those types are the ones that yes can use steroids but aren't getting the added effect due to the infrequent use. That is my logic on why the said number of steroid users were the majority vs. minority. Yes, players tried out steroids may even used it for a month or two being just a month or two only, are they not steroid users since it wasn't throughout the season or months at a time?

 

I also believe that taking a guy who is in that 1-3times a week going to gym for 1-3hours and then putting himself on a strict regime with steroids while at the gym for 2-4hours+ and being there 5-7days a week, are the ones who become the 15hr guys to 30+ like Gonzalez or Anderson having those 1 outlier type years.

When you frequent the gym it shows, but when you slack off in it your gains diminish rather quickly. So, taking steroids without a seriousness of putting in the gym time to reap the rewards results in a lack show in the stats and thus why there's not 10,000HRs hit those years as you point out.

[Ennder]

You are grossly overestimating how much steroids help. There is absolutely no way they turned even one 15 HR guy into a 40+ HR guy.

[RockCoCougars]

You are grossly overestimating how much steroids help. There is absolutely no way they turned even one 15 HR guy into a 40+ HR guy.

 

I was going to say Bret Boone, but he didn't quite get to 40. He did get pretty close though.

[brewcrewdue80]

Brady Anderson? Richard Hidalgo? Shawn Green?

Luis Gonzalez falls in the 20-25HR guy to hit 50+, Jay Buhner 20-25 to 40+,Andres Gallaraga 30 to 40+,Ken Caminiti 32-35yr seasons where he hits 26+ up to 40 in that era his 9th-12th years in the league, Brian Giles didn't hit 40 but hit 35-39 during the era never hitting more than 23 any other season, Jay Bell a 15-20hr to 38 his age 33 year, Matt Stairs had a 38HR season in 99 no other season above 27. Rich Aurilla 37HRs in 2001 no other year above 23. Bret Boone hit 37 in 2001 age 32, 35 in 2003, No other years above 24.

 

So you're right there really arent any players to be turned in to 40HR guys being 15hr guys. And I can't prove any of those players took steroids. But, those are they type of seasons between 1996-2003 where players had some extreme HRs that doesn't fit the rest of their career.

[Raw Biz]

Brady Anderson? Richard Hidalgo? Shawn Green?

Luis Gonzalez falls in the 20-25HR guy to hit 50+, Jay Buhner 20-25 to 40+,Andres Gallaraga 30 to 40+,Ken Caminiti 32-35yr seasons where he hits 26+ up to 40 in that era his 9th-12th years in the league, Brian Giles didn't hit 40 but hit 35-39 during the era never hitting more than 23 any other season, Jay Bell a 15-20hr to 38 his age 33 year, Matt Stairs had a 38HR season in 99 no other season above 27. Rich Aurilla 37HRs in 2001 no other year above 23. Bret Boone hit 37 in 2001 age 32, 35 in 2003, No other years above 24.

 

So you're right there really arent any players to be turned in to 40HR guys being 15hr guys. And I can't prove any of those players took steroids. But, those are they type of seasons between 1996-2003 where players had some extreme HRs that doesn't fit the rest of their career.

 

So did Bill Hall do steroids too because he never came close to matching 35 HR? Sometimes players have years like that, it happens. Just because it happened during the "steroid era" doesn't mean someone was necessarily roiding.

[Ennder]

Brady Anderson? Richard Hidalgo? Shawn Green?

Luis Gonzalez falls in the 20-25HR guy to hit 50+, Jay Buhner 20-25 to 40+,Andres Gallaraga 30 to 40+,Ken Caminiti 32-35yr seasons where he hits 26+ up to 40 in that era his 9th-12th years in the league, Brian Giles didn't hit 40 but hit 35-39 during the era never hitting more than 23 any other season, Jay Bell a 15-20hr to 38 his age 33 year, Matt Stairs had a 38HR season in 99 no other season above 27. Rich Aurilla 37HRs in 2001 no other year above 23. Bret Boone hit 37 in 2001 age 32, 35 in 2003, No other years above 24.

 

So you're right there really arent any players to be turned in to 40HR guys being 15hr guys. And I can't prove any of those players took steroids. But, those are they type of seasons between 1996-2003 where players had some extreme HRs that doesn't fit the rest of their career.

 

 

But again you are completely ignoring the fact that this was also an expansion era which is always a spike in HR. It has been proven that in the early 2000s the balls were at best inconsistent and at worse completely juiced. One fluke year by a 15 HR guy who hits 40 is a lot different than saying steroids turned a 15 HR guy into a 40 HR guy too, even if steroids were involved. If someone like Piazza is guilty of steroids he likely would have been a 25+ HR guy who turned into a 35 HR guy, he isn't some 15 HR a year guy without them. They have tested steroids and struggled to find any correlation to their use and increased power in the first place, it certainly isn't a 20+ HR spike.

[brewcrewdue80]

That is correct also^^ Those are just examples of player seasons with radical HR numbers in the Steroid era. What Ennder stated is steroids didn't make any 15hr guys 40hr guys. I gave a list of players as an example of players who would fall close to that category. Seeing as Sosa/McGuire/Bonds were 30-45HR guys who became 60+HR guys.

 

I do find it rather interesting the guys from Seattle in ARod,Martinez,Buhner,Boone who at one time played with one or another in that era giving you the whole show me how it's done equation of looking at it. Arod to Martinez/Buhner Buhner to Boone(during a season Buhner was hurt(Steroids to recover?) and could mentor Boone through how he did it)

 

In another retrospect Lance Armstrong who's about to concede to using Steroids, historic run with Tour de France began in 1999 right after peak 1998 baseball season.

 

I'm in the golf industry for work and I can tell you there's that rumor behind the scenes of Tiger Woods dominance possibly being helped by Steroids again around Baseball's Steroid era years. And now in the later years Woods' body is continually breaking down which would make a steroid use claim feasible.

 

I don't even know how NFL compares for those years but you're looking at clear head of the class individuals whose performance took off with steroid usage.

 

 

It all boils down to never knowing what the advantage became in baseball until a study is done with Willing Players taking steroids with MLB willing to allow them to take them. Then taking those results and applying it to a statistical gain standpoint.

[SRB]

It all boils down to never knowing what the advantage became in baseball until a study is done with Willing Players taking steroids with MLB willing to allow them to take them. Then taking those results and applying it to a statistical gain standpoint.

Well it's not a great study you can look at all the players named in the Mitchell Report and see that most of them stayed pretty crappy. There are definitely some players who took steroids and it correlated with their career years, but correlation does not imply causation. I can see steroids having some minimal impact, I just think it is totally overblown and unproven. Even adding 15-20 HR is a huge effect unsupported by any credible evidence.

 

I also think there was just something going on in the league during the years that home runs peaked (whether expansion, or pitching quality, or a juiced ball, whatever). For example, who was third in MLB in 1998 behind McGwire and Sosa? Ken Griffey Jr. with a career-best 56 HR. I have never seen anyone accuse Griffey of taking steroids, and he had a major power spike in the same years.

[logan82]

Steroids probably had more of an impact on shortening recovery time on injuries and older players being able to play longer.

[Ennder]

Steroid use at one point was completely rampant in the NFL and still probably is.

[JimH5]

But what about the improvements in technology, nutrition, exercise science and sports medicine in the past 10 years? If Luis Gonzalez was not using steroids when that picture was taken, why do no players in baseball look like that today? Or better?

 

Why is nobody putting up 57 HR seasons any more?

 

And whether you think steroids are helpful in building better baseball players or not (Dan Naulty is certain that they made him a major leaguer instead of a washout), what about the players who obtained and used them unlawfully? Shouldn't that act alone bring their character into question?

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/magazine/05/29/baseball.steroids/index.html

[endaround]

Age 28 Tony Gwynn 1988: .313/.373/.415

 

Age 38 Tony Gwynn 1998: .321/.364/.511

 

So did Gwynn do steroids? Or is there really something else going on?

[Ennder]

I have no issue with someone being left out on character if there is some sort of proof. Some loose evidence like there were whispers in the clubhouse about him or he looked big or had a good year later in his career or he had back acne is where I draw the line though.

[JimH5]

I have no issue with someone being left out on character if there is some sort of proof. Some loose evidence like there were whispers in the clubhouse about him or he looked big or had a good year later in his career or he had back acne is where I draw the line though.

 

That seems to be the prevailing thought among many in the media.

 

I'm pretty much on all sides of it, as I'm respectful of an electing body that wants to maintain the integrity of the character clause, and I'm willing to allow them to connect the dots where --even without hard evidence-- it is reasonable to suspect PED use.

 

That said, I want Cooperstown and the HOF to be attractive to visitors, and I don't know who is going there if the greats of the game aren't inducted.

[Ennder]

They are still in the museum. You can still learn the history of the players. They just don't have a plaque. I'm fine with leaving them out. I'm also fine with detailing the known steroid use in their plaque. Either way works for me.