My 2013 Hall of Fame Ballot Would Be...

[StearnsFTW]

My 2014 ballot would probably be.

 

Maddux

Glavine

Thomas

Biggio

Trammell

Raines

Piazza

 

After that I would have to look a lot closer at guys than I have and there isn't much room left.

 

I would vote for all of those guys except Trammell. I read somewhere that Pedro and Randy Johnson were eligible next year too, but I guess that was untrue. Those guys are slam dunks too.

[brewcrewdue80]

Using the past drug use of cocaine and amphetamines of members who made the HOF to justify putting steroid users in seems silly to me. How much faster or stronger a player did those two drugs make them versus the overwhelming stat improvement of a steroids user? We were looking at .500slg guys slugging .800+ for 3/4years. And that 5thyear? Or 6th year? It was just total breakdown. But the historic numbers had been put up. Seasons for The ages were accomplished. Where were these seasons by the cocaine and amphetamine users? Steroids didn't just beat the record, it absolutely blew them away! Let's use Melky Cabrera as an example to watch this season. The year he has vs the years before and then the year caught using steroids. From a stat stand point per 162games just how much % wise he exceeds his norm with steroids.

 

Maybe MLB should allow a team 1player with 4years experience minimum to use steroids. And the gain they all get from using steroids vs the seasons w/o. Run this over a 6year period with each team's player chosen doing two years of use. After 6years MLB would have 90players with 2years stats on steroids to compare to their normal non steroids use years. They come up with a % result say 50% increase in HRs, 30%increase in BA and such and can apply that finding to the players in the steroids era and deem then if their numbers are still HOF worthy.

 

Edit: Adding: If this happened today I would go Gallardo the 1st two years, Lucroy the 2, and Segura the final 2. Braun just wouldn't be able to participate with his alleged steroid use already. But finding out what a 200in/200k pitcher does followed by a 10ish HR hitting Catcher who bats around .300, followed by Segura who I've read projects to becoming a 10-15hr guy. Reaching his prime years does he go from 7-10 to suddenly 26/35 and then back down to 10 afterwards.

This to me is what would need to be done by MLB at some point to see under the microscope what a Steroid using ballplayer's advantage really is. Even if it happens 20years from now the findings could make it where the HOF vote is reopened for these players who are likely to be left off and never make it.

[remfire]

Remfire, I also suggest you read the Stark & Schoenfield columns for which I posted links. Whether or not they deserve plaques is a matter of opinion and one on which we disagree. . . . Amphetamines were illegal (were those the "greenies," or were those something else, too?). Cocaine is a stimulant that was certainly illegal in the '70s & '80s. Gaylord Perry's doctoring the ball was shameless and done ON the field AND he was CAUGHT. Arguably none of those things are any lesser offenses than steroids or PEDs of the recent era, and that same "character/etc." clause the writers use to justify the exclusions of the accused/suspected/guilty existed in those times, too -- it's been there for over 60 years, according to Stark's article.

 

I read both columns when they came out. Stark is very persuasive, but alas, I don't agree. He also wrote an article yesterday (forgive me for I cannot find the link) that echoes the sentiment of you and many others. The jist of it was that something needs to be done to fix the voting process.

 

I'd like to point out this article: http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8831305/hall-famers-glad-barry-bonds-roger-clemens-denied. They don't want them in either.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Why did Bert Campaneris hit 22 HR in 1970. Why did Brady Anderson not keep hitting 50 HR a year? How do you explain Dale Sveum's power in 1987 or Phil Plantier in 1993? Are we just assuming everyone in Toronto is on steroids now that Bautista did what he did followed by Encarnacion? Why wasn't Keith Hernandez taken until pick #785? How did Sandberg make the HOF after being pick #511?

 

I'm fine with people not voting for someone with a serious link to steroids but when you are just looking at the numbers and assuming they did it, that is bad, especially when you are talking about players with a full HOF resume.

 

 

So then should I assume that you think Gonzalez, Anderson, Green & Piazza were not using steroids?

 

Or are you just unwilling to pass judgment on them absent more concrete evidence?

 

 

Tommy Holmes hit 28 homers in 1945, with a .997 OPS. Never in his career before or after did he hit more than 13 homers, or have an OPS higher than .828.

 

Was he juicing? By your definition and standards of judgement, he pretty much had to have been, yes?

 

Roger Maris hit 61 homers in '61, yet never hit as many as 40 in any other season. That's pretty fishy, isn't it?

 

George Foster hit 52 and 40 homers, respectively, in 77 and 78, yet in an 18 year career, never hit more than 30 in any other season.

 

History is FULL of these types of seasons. Outliers happen. It's the nature of the game. Assuming that every time they do it's because of something fishy, or because someone cheated is a huge fallacy on the part of the viewer (in my opinion only of course)

[LouisEly]

Piazza wasn't drafted out of high school. He didn't play college ball at a major baseball school. He was drafted as the 1390th player in the 1988 draft. And he has a higher career WAR than any of the 1389 players taken before him. Do you think he achieved that just on his own?

 

He went from 6 HR and a .390 SLG as a 21-year old to 29 HR and .540 SLG as a 22-year old. Doesn't that kind of progression at least raise suspicion in your mind?

 

You don't have your facts right on Piazza. He DID go to a major college - the University of Miami, aka "The U" - but left after his freshman year and transferred to Miami Dade CC. He was unable to play most of his one season at MDCC due to a hand injury:

 

"He did not do well in the single season he played with the Hurricanes and decided to transfer to Miami-Dade Community College. He was unable to play most of the season with the school due to a hand injury, so Lasorda once again stepped in to help Piazza out by influencing the Dodgers to draft the young Piazza, who was picked last in the 62nd round. When Piazza consistently blew the balls out of the ballpark for the Dodgers scouting director, Ben Wade, he knew they would find a place for him. Lasorda worked with Wade to come up with a way for Piazza to make it with the Dodgers. Wade finally agreed when Lasorda suggested that Piazza play the position of catcher. Wade was hooked, and offered Piazza a $15,000 signing bonus.

 

http://sports.jrank.org/pages/3727/Piazza-Mike-Batter-Up.html

 

He was drafted as a 20-year-old and slugged .444 as a 20-year-old in low-A ball; the .390 SLG was in the Florida State League, known for being a tough hitters league. He slugged .540 in the California league, not an unheard of accomplishment for someone who slugged .444 as a 20-year-old in low-A. To say that he never had power is not correct.

 

He wouldn't be the only player from a community college to fit this profile - some guy named Pujols went to a community college, wasn't drafted until the 13th round, and slugged .610 in the majors two years after being drafted.

[RockCoCougars]

I knew this would be a hot topic here....

 

I'd have voted for Biggio, Trammell and Morris myself. Trammell getting 30 percent of the vote, the year after Larkin got in is the biggest travesty here if you ask me. I'd give Piazza a lot of thought, but I'd need a bit more convincing. He's seems to be right there with Bagwell, a bit of steroid suspicion, but also not a truly dominating career with no major offensive milestones hit in an era of offensive explosion.

[dlk9s]

I'd give Piazza a lot of thought, but I'd need a bit more convincing. He's seems to be right there with Bagwell, a bit of steroid suspicion, but also not a truly dominating career with no major offensive milestones hit in an era of offensive explosion.

http://i.imgur.com/2UBzL.gif

[RockCoCougars]

I'd give Piazza a lot of thought, but I'd need a bit more convincing. He's seems to be right there with Bagwell, a bit of steroid suspicion, but also not a truly dominating career with no major offensive milestones hit in an era of offensive explosion.

http://i.imgur.com/2UBzL.gif

 

Call me crazy, but outside of 90's fantasy baseball catchers, I wouldn't say that Piazza had a dominating career. Outside of HR, his counting stats aren't really that gaudy considering when he played. Yes, he hit over 400 homers, but he played in an era where 400 became the new 300. He never won an MVP either. Obviously, his OPS scores him some huge points with many folks. He also gets bonus points for catching, but he was a poor thrower. I didn't watch him enough to speak to his defensive prowess or lack thereof in other areas, but his defensive reputation isn't all that great. I definitely think he is worthy of consideration, and someone I would likely vote for down the road, but first ballot HOF, I'm not so sure.

[TooLiveBrew]

Piazza's 143 OPS+ is the highest in the history of MLB for a catcher. If that's not a dominant career...

 

 

(for comparison, Pudge Rodríguez's career OPS+ is 106, and had one season better than 143)

[JimH5]

Thanks to Louis Ely for the correction on Piazza's Univ. of Miami freshman year. I missed that in researching his pre-majors career.

 

If only we all had our own Tommy Lasorda to open doors for us. . .

 

As for the comparison to Pujols, remember that Piazza was drafted 900+ spots later in his draft than Pujols was in his. And Pujols has had the benefit of playing most of his career in the post-drug testing era of MLB.

 

Here's something from Chass on Piazza:

 

http://www.murraychass.com/?p=555

 

He clearly thinks Piazza was a steroid user who quit when drug testing began.

[JimH5]

 

 

Tommy Holmes hit 28 homers in 1945, with a .997 OPS. Never in his career before or after did he hit more than 13 homers, or have an OPS higher than .828.

 

Was he juicing? By your definition and standards of judgement, he pretty much had to have been, yes?

 

Roger Maris hit 61 homers in '61, yet never hit as many as 40 in any other season. That's pretty fishy, isn't it?

 

George Foster hit 52 and 40 homers, respectively, in 77 and 78, yet in an 18 year career, never hit more than 30 in any other season.

 

History is FULL of these types of seasons. Outliers happen. It's the nature of the game. Assuming that every time they do it's because of something fishy, or because someone cheated is a huge fallacy on the part of the viewer (in my opinion only of course)

 

In the context of those seasons, there are some possible explanations for those outliers.

 

1945 was a war year with very depleted rosters. In 1946 and after, Holmes would face better competition.

1961 was an expansion year, also with an expanded schedule, and nearly 2000 more runs scored in the AL vs. 1960.

1977 was also an expansion year, it was in the prime of Foster's career, and one of the few times he played a full season.

 

 

You're right that there will always be outliers, but do you really think Luis Gonzalez's 57 HR season was just a statistical anomaly?

[Baldkin]

Thanks to Louis Ely for the correction on Piazza's Univ. of Miami freshman year. I missed that in researching his pre-majors career.

 

If only we all had our own Tommy Lasorda to open doors for us. . .

 

As for the comparison to Pujols, remember that Piazza was drafted 900+ spots later in his draft than Pujols was in his. And Pujols has had the benefit of playing most of his career in the post-drug testing era of MLB.

 

Here's something from Chass on Piazza:

 

http://www.murraychass.com/?p=555

 

He clearly thinks Piazza was a steroid user who quit when drug testing began.

 

If you're going to use Murray Chass as your moral compass, I simply cannot take you seriously.

 

To sum up those 3 articles:

1) Stan Musial is a racist, because someone told Murray Chass that something happened once.

2) If someone admitted to doing any illegal drug they shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame

3) Statistics. Damn you for using them when talking about who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame!

[Ennder]

1961 was an expansion year, also with an expanded schedule, and nearly 2000 more runs scored in the AL vs. 1960.

1977 was also an expansion year, it was in the prime of Foster's career, and one of the few times he played a full season.

 

So was 1993 and 1998, both of which are in the 'steroid era'. Expansion definitely had something to do in all of this offense as did the balls which were wound tighter in those years. Testing showed that balls from 1999 flew 48 feet farther than balls from 1942 when the same pressure was applied to them. Another group tested McGwire's 70th HR ball and found it was juiced. There was a lot more going on here than just steroids.

[DuWayne Steurer]

 

 

You're right that there will always be outliers, but do you really think Luis Gonzalez's 57 HR season was just a statistical anomaly?

 

 

Actually, yes. Luis Gonzalez went from a 25 homer guy to a 31 homer guy to 57 in the span of three seasons. There's more at work here than simply "steroids did it".

 

I'm not saying Luis Gonzalez did or did not do steroids. He may have, he may not have. I don't know. But I think people who assume steroids can make you hit 30 more homers per season are overstating the effects of what they can do for you.

[Outlander]

I'm not saying Luis Gonzalez did or did not do steroids. He may have, he may not have. I don't know. But I think people who assume steroids can make you hit 30 more homers per season are overstating the effects of what they can do for you.

 

Barry Bonds would disagree with you, he became jealous of Sosa and McGwire and wanted to show everyone how great the best player on the planet would be on steroids and it turned out to be better than Sosa and Mcgwire.

[RobDeer 45]

When were steroids illegal in baseball? When did they start testing for them?

 

I'm ok with these guys not being first ballot HOFers but I don't think they should be kept out going forward. You can't play the judge game on who you "think" did roids and who didn't. It's not fair. They need to vote these guys in for what they did and let people debate and discuss them when the visit the HOF. There were just too many people doing stuff during that time period. You are supposed to be judged against the guys from your time period and if you were dominant during that time, you should be in the HOF. Barry Bonds was the most dominant player I've ever wittnessed. On steroids or not, he was amazing and should be in the HOF.

[JimH5]

If you're going to use Murray Chass as your moral compass, I simply cannot take you seriously.

 

To sum up those 3 articles:

1) Stan Musial is a racist, because someone told Murray Chass that something happened once.

2) If someone admitted to doing any illegal drug they shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame

3) Statistics. Damn you for using them when talking about who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame

 

Chass isn't my moral compass, but I do think he is capable of accurately reporting what he saw in the Mets locker room.

 

He is a Spink award winner, and he worked for the New York Times for almost 40 years. When you combine his account with Jeff Pearlman's (Sports Illustrated) and Joel Sherman's (NY Post), it's damning information.

 

If those accounts are untrue, then they would be libelous, and it would seem that an innocent Piazza would want some recourse. And yet there have been no actions by Piazza, or his agent, or the Players Association against those media companies or those writers.

 

I don't think Chass is Bob Woodward, but it seems weird that we criticize the media for turning a blind eye toward steroid use, but then when some of them tell you what they saw, then we discredit them, too.

[dlk9s]

Call me crazy, but outside of 90's fantasy baseball catchers, I wouldn't say that Piazza had a dominating career.

You're crazy.

 

He never won an MVP either.

The BBWAA also votes for the MVP, so I would put zero stock in that.

[LouisEly]

As for the comparison to Pujols, remember that Piazza was drafted 900+ spots later in his draft than Pujols was in his. And Pujols has had the benefit of playing most of his career in the post-drug testing era of MLB.

 

The big difference is that Pujols actually played at CC (.461 for the year, with 22 home runs and 80 RBIs) so scouts had something to go off of. Piazza didn't play most of his one season at CC because of the hand injury, so scouts had little if anything to go off of as a reason to draft him. And in 1988 you didn't have the internet or other technology advances to expand scouting reach; everything had to be done with the human eye. In 1998 you had more advances in technology and media to expand scouting and have reports on more players.

 

Piazza was an active player when the Mitchell report commenced in March of 2006 and played both seasons during the investigation; he wasn't named in the report. His career was so consistent (unlike Gonzalez, Anderson, and Green) that he would have to have been using for so long that it would be highly unlikely that there is no tangible evidence of him using or being named in the Mitchell report.

 

And as for testing, MLB still does not test for HGH. So it's possible that Pujols (and Piazza) used.

[Ennder]

I'm not saying Luis Gonzalez did or did not do steroids. He may have, he may not have. I don't know. But I think people who assume steroids can make you hit 30 more homers per season are overstating the effects of what they can do for you.

 

Barry Bonds would disagree with you, he became jealous of Sosa and McGwire and wanted to show everyone how great the best player on the planet would be on steroids and it turned out to be better than Sosa and Mcgwire.

 

But again this was during the expansion era which always inflates HR and the balls have been proven to have been juiced as well. He saw a 30 HR jump coming from multiple sources, not just steroids. I don't think he was on steroids back in his 35 HR years and I think the expansion and the ball would have jumped him up to the 40+ he usually sat at even without the steroids. What the steroids did more than anything was keep him on the field and at maximum health at an age when he should have seriously been declining.

[RockCoCougars]

By all accounts I've seen, I don't think that Bonds started juicing until after '98. He was already a HOF at that point, so it's somewhat sad that he laid all that on the line because he was envious of the attention that McGwire and Sosa were getting. I also subscribe to the theory (conspiracy) that the ball was juiced in an '87-esque way beginning in or around the '95 post streak era. I think that you have to judge guys from this era in that context. The known juicers have an additional strike against them for me.

 

As for Piazza, I don't really think that it's fair to lump him in with the juicers. However, I will normalize his stats a bit because he hit his peak during the 'chicks dig the long ball era'. In the end, I think he's a HOF, just not a first ballot HOF... yes, I'm one of 'those guys' that makes the distinction.

 

By the way, does anyone else feel that writers should not be able to vote for 10 guys? I think that perhaps limiting things to 3-5 guys would force them to think about their ballots more.

[mothershipconnection]

Going by stats alone can be fairly difficult because of how much variability you can get from one sample to the next. Skinny guys in the pre-steroid era demonstrated big swings in power numbers for one season. Sometimes, guys are just lucky or dealing with chronic injuries that push numbers in one direction of the other.

To me, the clearest evidence comes when changes in muscle mass are extremely unlikely from natural causes. To go from fairly thin to huge and ripped long after your natural testosterone levels have peaked is really fishy. I know guys who are that huge and ripped without steroids, but they looked like that in high school because their genes made it possible. Unless there's some crazy epigenetic stuff going on that we don't understand, you don't develop a genetic endowment that makes your veins pop out all over when you're 30. Of course, not all steroid treatments will make you huge, but gigantic gains in muscle just don't happen without "help".

[RightFieldCoder]

And as for testing, MLB still does not test for HGH. So it's possible that Pujols (and Piazza) used.

The have now fixed that.

[Ennder]

By the way, does anyone else feel that writers should not be able to vote for 10 guys? I think that perhaps limiting things to 3-5 guys would force them to think about their ballots more.

 

The problem is usually that they don't for enough guys, not that they vote for too many. Next year I would probably want to vote for more than 10 guys, the ballot is just way too packed since the voters haven't voted in guys they should have the past few years. There are a lot of guys who refuse to vote for more than 5 or 6 and guys who won't look deeper into numbers, they vote just by how the name looks in their head.

[logan82]

When were steroids illegal in baseball?

They were illegal when they were illegal in the US. According to the CBA any illegal drug was illegal if it was illegal in the US. It was just never tested for or enforced.