Brewers Have Considered Trading Hart

[paul253]

Were they phony offers?

 

Essentially yes. The offers made to Fielder, Greinke and Sabathia were all blown away by other clubs, just as I suspect Melvin knew they'd be. He HAD to make them offer of some kind, if anything just to say he did. But I'm sure deep down he knew they'd never accept his offer.

 

In the odd chance any of those deals had been accepted other moves could have been made to offset the cost. Obviously had Fielder taken the offer no way Ramirez would have been signed. And if Greinke took the offer Hart would probably be gone.

[monty57]

Attanasio is the managing partner of the partnership which owns the Brewers and "controls" the money/budget. He stated that he is willing to go overboard for "truly special" players. That leads me to believe that the ownership group is willing to forego profits and even take losses in order to have some Hall of Fame talent on the roster. Braun, Fielder, Sabathia and Greinke qualify, Hart does not.

 

If the ownership group sets the budget higher by reaching into their own pockets to pay for the HoF player, then Melvin can spend the "real" budget on the other 24 players. If the ownership group is unwilling to reach into their own pockets, and Melvin signs deals that run the team into a financial brick wall, he needs to rid the team of salary in order to fill other holes on the team. When other teams know you need to dump salary, they circle like vultures.

 

That's all a guess. I never wanted them to sign a player to a deal guaranteeing $20MM+ / year. It's also possible they were merely offering a deal they knew the player wouldn't accept to make themselves look good (and the player look bad) to the Brewer fans.

 

We've shown over the past few years that NOT paying the big deal to these guys has allowed us to add other players and remain competitive. Paying almost as much to Hart as we were willing to pay to Fielder (on a per season amount) makes no sense to me, and losing Hart after this season (or trading him now) will have less effect on our offense than losing Fielder had on our offense from 2011 to 2012. I keep hearing how we have a dominant offense... how is that possible since we lost Fielder?

[KCBrewerfan34]

As it worked out, we're probably just as good if not better without Fielder when you consider the money we saved had we signed Fielder to a blockbuster deal.

[logan82]

if the Brewers don't have any money, how were they able to offer Greinke and Sabtahia and Fielder $100 million + deals?

They were special players. Hart isn't.

[monty57]

As it worked out, we're probably just as good if not better without Fielder when you consider the money we saved had we signed Fielder to a blockbuster deal.

 

Agreed, and I'd bet the same will be said if we don't offer Hart a big extension.

[endaround]

As it worked out, we're probably just as good if not better without Fielder when you consider the money we saved had we signed Fielder to a blockbuster deal.

 

Agreed, and I'd bet the same will be said if we don't offer Hart a big extension.

 

 

Yes, now all we have to do is find another Casey McGehee to replace with another Aramis Ramirez and everything will work out.

[monty57]

As it worked out, we're probably just as good if not better without Fielder when you consider the money we saved had we signed Fielder to a blockbuster deal.

 

Agreed, and I'd bet the same will be said if we don't offer Hart a big extension.

 

 

Yes, now all we have to do is find another Casey McGehee to replace with another Aramis Ramirez and everything will work out.

 

In 2012: Hart was the 15th ranked 1B in baseball in terms of WAR, 11th out of 20 in OBP, 7th out of 20 in SLG, 8th out of 20 in OPS. He's an average MLB first baseman. I like him as a #5 hitter who can hit some HR behind the better hitters ahead of him.

 

He is far from irreplaceable. He turns 31 in March, which isn't old, but it's getting past the prime years, and an extension would take him to his mid-30's, so a decline in production is probable, especially given his history of knee problems. There is a good chance that one of our 1B in the system will put up better numbers than Hart over the next four years, and will do so for around $2MM vs Hart's $60MM or so.

 

Maybe with $58MM to play with over the next four years, Melvin will be able to find an upgrade somewhere.

[brewcrewdue80]

Let's face it.

The real reason for Considering Hart to be traded is because the team has Gamel/Green just taking up 2 roster spots who we know won't go in AAA. Locking up Hart on extension just continues having 3players for 1spot. And there's a 4th potentially pushing his way up to be considered for a roster spot soon.

Not trading Hart leaves the team with 2players who don't have any trade value now due to lack of experience. Hart has value and his departure gives Gamel/Green the opportunity themselves to provide trade value. Keeping Hart longer, not only reduces his value down the road(say 2 solid Prospects now to maybe 1down the road) but in Gamel/Green not playing vs. playing you take away any chance of them becoming say a 2 solid prospects each in return when Morris phases them out. So in that thinking, On best case in my scenario the team loses 6 solid prospects to 1 on trade returns by extending Hart another 3years. Add to it a 13-14MM cost vs what? a 13-14Mil TOTAL cost for the next 4years at 1b instead, as a small market you need to recycle players like Hart for added prospects and potential vs. him inflicting payroll damage as well as roster damage.

And Hart as a #5 batter when I see Lucroy absolutely deserving of that spot today over #6.

Thinking Weeks,Gomez batting behind Aoki you are stuck batting One of them in the 7th/8th spots. Another deterrent on their trade value in loss of PAs. Harts value is set in stone with his consistency. Weeks has to prove last year was a fluke and Gomez has to prove that last year Wasn't a fluke! Keeping Hart for this season only devalues every other player that the team needs to consider trading(sans Ramirez and likely even Himself!) in the short/far term.

[PrinceFielderx1]

Monty57 see entire post #161. The Brewers can afford it and wont be as tight as you might think. Giving Hart 14 million over 3 years wont be the contract that prohibits us from making other moves to improve the ball club, and I'd bet that considering Hart is now a 1B, which is a less athletic position/easier position, that Hart will be very valuable their for his entire next contract. I'm not worried about it at all to be completely honest.

 

I'm all for giving prospects chances and the Brewers clearly are going to next season with the SP prospects, which will balance out the payroll for years to come. I'm also for Lucroy/Gallardo type deals to save money in the arbitration process and buy out some FA years.

[MNBrew]

PFx1, unless you've got a view of the Brewers' books, I don't see how you can assert that your take on things is airtight.

 

If your point is that the additional national TV revenue basically covers the cost of Hart, in essence you've still got piles of young guys coming up through the ranks -- beyond the gradually escalating salaries of Braun, Yo, etc. -- who, if they perform well, will start earning nice increases, too, with all those other guys around.

 

So perhaps your point is that the Brewers could comfortably max out payroll on Opening Day, but that's what they did last year (boo! hiss! on K-Rod!) and they had a lot of inflexibility most of the year. On the basis that your take is fully correct, perhaps, then, one of the truly key questions is whether or not the Brewers are best served to operate with no cushion for additional moves. . . . Sure, as noted regularly, Mark A will absorb a loss for truly special players. But as others have said, Hart's certainly fine in many respects but not "special" in that rare, exceptional way. So I doubt that giving Hart an extension that pushes them to the edge of Mark A.'s payroll comfort zone is a likely occurrence.

[ewitkows]

If they can make the playoffs and draw around 3 mil they'll have the money to lock him up. If they can't then some tough decisions need to be made

[Cantstoptrucking]

Long time reader, first time poster here.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/01/olney-on-astros-price-ethier.html

 

Olney has an Insider only article up today, though I'm not a subscriber, saying the Mariners have called the Dodgers about Ethier multiple times. One would assume there's a fit for Corey in Seattle if that's the case. Jack did draft him, Mariners play ST in AZ, and Corey isn't tied down to a lengthy, expensive contract. I haven't seen any names thrown around who the Mariners would be sending, but does anyone have access to Insider or any idea what Corey could realistically bring back in a trade?

[sveumrules]

I'd think the best we could hope for from SEA would be James Paxton who is generally the least regarded of their big 3 pitching prospects and even then we might have to throw something else in to even things out.

[brewcrewdue80]

Something I cooked up on imagination.

Nick Franklin and Paxton for Corey Hart and Scooter Gennet.

You take on a Segura/Franklin 2b/SS for years to come.

Gennet who's just blocked and a lesser prospect probably becomes servicable to Seattle as a utility MI thinking Ackley/Brad Miller the M's MI for years to come after/if Ryan leaves

 

Can you ask for much more? Throw in one of the 3b proscpects? Francisco Martinez or Joseph DeCarlo?

[narwhalattack]

Something I cooked up on imagination.

Nick Franklin and Paxton for Corey Hart and Scooter Gennet.

You take on a Segura/Franklin 2b/SS for years to come.

Gennet who's just blocked and a lesser prospect probably becomes servicable to Seattle as a utility MI thinking Ackley/Brad Miller the M's MI for years to come after/if Ryan leaves

 

Can you ask for much more? Throw in one of the 3b proscpects? Francisco Martinez or Joseph DeCarlo?

 

I think Seattle would hang up pretty quickly. Paxton, although he isn't as good as Walker and Hultzen, still has good stuff and has a chance to be a #2/3 starter. Nick Franklin is a solid SS prospect with a good chance at sticking at SS, which is valuable in itself, not to mention that he has a pretty good bat to boot. Hart, although he has a very good bat that can help out the Mariners, is under contract for one more year and it's not a guarantee that he'll extend with Seattle. Gennett, although a solid prospect, doesn't have the upside of Franklin.

[Ennder]

Also Hart honestly does project as a 1B or at best a LF. His defense in the OF has really slipped and his foot speed is way down. It really does suppress his value for any team that wants OF help and not just 1B help.

[brewcrewdue80]

Also Hart honestly does project as a 1B or at best a LF. His defense in the OF has really slipped and his foot speed is way down. It really does suppress his value for any team that wants OF help and not just 1B help.

 

Mariners currently have Smoak then Morales for 1b. Smoak to me, is fizzling out his time to be a 1b with his poor BA/OB he has 74XBH over 1000PAs time

I think Hart fits Mariners well in that regard between DH/1b/and LF flexible move around production for M's while being able to remove Smoak.

Hart btw 124XBH in 1173PAs

 

I said earlier somewhere with Hart what he does at the plate is about as consistent/predictable as you can get.

With Morales and Hart you're looking at 1year guys and you can look to extend the one who performs best on your team/fits your eyes moving forward.

[quote name="narwhalattack

I think Seattle would hang up pretty quickly. Paxton' date=' although he isn't as good as Walker and Hultzen, still has good stuff and has a chance to be a #2/3 starter. Nick Franklin is a solid SS prospect with a good chance at sticking at SS, which is valuable in itself, not to mention that he has a pretty good bat to boot. Hart, although he has a very good bat that can help out the Mariners, is under contract for one more year and it's not a guarantee that he'll extend with Seattle. Gennett, although a solid prospect, doesn't have the upside of Franklin.[/quote]

 

Thinking Hart as 1b for Mariners with the LF experience or even DH a big upgrade over Smoak. Mariners not having another 1b coming up in their minors system while they do have a few 2b/SS/3B guys coming up. Mariners can afford to lose Franklin having Ryan and then when Ryan goes those others replace him. Gennett just protects the Mariners on the injury front on Ackley/Ryan without running the clock on the better guys coming up too soon.

Paxton for what it's worth is rated high but he may become a fizzle type with his injury issues.

Remember Hart is proven Paxton/Franklin are not so you cant trade Paxton or Franklin straightup for Hart. The moment the M's extend Hart would be a huge win for them on that trade. M's really lacking in production at 1b Hart could shore that up at a cost of a SS/SP prospect who you have coming up the pipe. That's just my idea of a fair trade and insight why.

[reillymcshane]

Something I cooked up on imagination.

Nick Franklin and Paxton for Corey Hart and Scooter Gennet.

You take on a Segura/Franklin 2b/SS for years to come.

Gennet who's just blocked and a lesser prospect probably becomes servicable to Seattle as a utility MI thinking Ackley/Brad Miller the M's MI for years to come after/if Ryan leaves

I think the Mariners would be pretty crazy to do this deal. But hey, if it works, go for it.

 

Sure prospects are unproven, but you're talking up to 12 years of cost control for two highly ranked players in exchange for one year of Corey Hart. Corey is a very good player. But it's one year of the guy.

 

And Paxson and Franklin aren't just mediocre prospects. Going into 2013, they are pretty well thought of players.

 

John Sickels ranks Franklin as the 16th top hitting prospect in the game. He has Paxson as the 25th ranked pitcher. MLB prospect watch as Franklin ranked 29th on their top 100 list. Paxson is the 74th top prospect. These guys are ranked higher than any Brewer (Segura would probably be a top 50 guy if he was still considered a rookie).

 

Sources:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2012/

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/10/8/3474442/preliminary-top-50-hitting-prospects-for-2013

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/10/8/3474586/preliminary-top-50-pitching-prospects-list-for-2013

 

Again, the main thing is not that Corey Hart isn't good. It's that it's one year of Hart for 12 years of two excellent prospects.

[Roderick]

Again, the main thing is not that Corey Hart isn't good. It's that it's one year of Hart for 12 years of two excellent prospects.

 

I would think the probability is that Hart will perform (and stay healthy) to earn a QO.

 

Hence I would use the one year of Hart plus draft pick for whatever in any trade scenarios.....

 

Edit: Attach an article from St.Louis regarding the draft pick value

 

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland/the-added-cost-of-signing-kyle-lohse/article_4bda70bb-64e3-5069-b708-abde1a0efbdf.html

[monty57]

I'd speak with Hart and get a list of teams that make sense as a trading partner and with which he would be willing to sign an extension. Then I would target those teams for trade. If Hart is willing to work an extension, then we would be able to ask for a lot more in return.

 

- Hart would feel that the Brewers were good to him in allowing him to be a part of things (not just shipping him off somewhere he doesn't want to go), and he could get the "certainty" he seems to want by going somewhere he'd be extended for potentially the remainder of his career.

 

- The Brewers get more in return in trade.

 

- The team trading for Hart gets to lock him in long-term, locking in a middle-of-the-order bat for 3-5 years instead of one. They'd essentially have the deal in place prior to the trade, giving them "exclusive rights," something they couldn't get if pursuing a free agent.

[Ennder]

The Mariners already are 4-5 deep in the OF and their DH is taken up so I really don't see this working. I'm sure they would rather see what they have in Bay/Ibanez/Wells/Saunders in their corner OF than trade for Hart. I'm not against or for trading Hart. I don't want to extend him so as long as they are getting value I'm fine with it. Seattle doesn't really make any sense at all to me though.

[JohnBriggs12]

Let's face it.

The real reason for Considering Hart to be traded is because the team has Gamel/Green just taking up 2 roster spots who we know won't go in AAA. Locking up Hart on extension just continues having 3players for 1spot. And there's a 4th potentially pushing his way up to be considered for a roster spot soon.

Not trading Hart leaves the team with 2players who don't have any trade value now due to lack of experience. Hart has value and his departure gives Gamel/Green the opportunity themselves to provide trade value. Keeping Hart longer, not only reduces his value down the road(say 2 solid Prospects now to maybe 1down the road) but in Gamel/Green not playing vs. playing you take away any chance of them becoming say a 2 solid prospects each in return when Morris phases them out. So in that thinking, On best case in my scenario the team loses 6 solid prospects to 1 on trade returns by extending Hart another 3years. Add to it a 13-14MM cost vs what? a 13-14Mil TOTAL cost for the next 4years at 1b instead, as a small market you need to recycle players like Hart for added prospects and potential vs. him inflicting payroll damage as well as roster damage.

And Hart as a #5 batter when I see Lucroy absolutely deserving of that spot today over #6.

Thinking Weeks,Gomez batting behind Aoki you are stuck batting One of them in the 7th/8th spots. Another deterrent on their trade value in loss of PAs. Harts value is set in stone with his consistency. Weeks has to prove last year was a fluke and Gomez has to prove that last year Wasn't a fluke! Keeping Hart for this season only devalues every other player that the team needs to consider trading(sans Ramirez and likely even Himself!) in the short/far term.

 

 

There are valid reasons for trading Hart, but making room for Gamel and Green aren't in my top 10. In fact if Hart were to be traded and LaRoche was still available I'd sign him in a heartbeat before I'd entrust 1B to Gamel. I'd also look into Lance Berkman before I'd hand the job to Gamel. No offense to Gamel as he's not totally responsible, but he missed almost and entire year and at 27 going on 28 hasn't established any major league credentials. Want a comparison? How about the Astros dumping Berkman to make room for Brett Wallace in 2010? How did that work out? Wallace was easily as highly regarded as Gamel at one time.

[narwhalattack]

Gamel hasn't even been given the chance to start that much. He's been unable to play much in the majors because of Fielder, and then as soon as Fielder left and he had the chance to play, he got injured. Do you believe that he should be able to find success in the majors without even playing a decent amount? He's gotta have some playing time and experience before he's supposed to find any success. If he's just gonna get pushed around by veterans after veterans because he "doesn't have the credentials", he's never gonna get the "credentials" you speak of. Credentials take experience to develop, and Gamel hadn't had many opportunities to begin with.

[paul253]

I just think that the Brewers are blowing a golden opportunity with Corey Hart. Right now there are so many if's heading into 2013 that I think you need almost everything to go right for them to be a playoff contender. The rotation. The bullpen. Shortstop. Health. We are set up alright for the near future, with Segura, Lucroy, Braun, Weeks, Ramirez, and so on and we do have a lot of options with starting pitching. But our system is still relatively weak and lacks depth and high ceiling prospects. And our payroll has been about as high as it can be for the past few years. By dealing Hart not only could you get a cheap, controllable player who could conceivably contribute for at least 6 years, but you also save a ton of money.

 

I don't want them to sign Hart to a long term deal but if they are going to do it they should do it now. Don't wait til the last minute to decide what to do. Actually come up with a long term plan for first base instead of just winging it. I think the only options should be trade him now or sign him long term. I don't like the idea of offering him a QO and accepting only a compensation round pick for him if he leaves when you could get such a better return in a trade now.

[Kelbysdaddy]

seattle has been floated out there but shot down because they seem to have enough OF/1B already but apparently they are going after upton hard and are "desperate" for an impact bat. seattle is on uptons no trade list and i highly doubt he'll approve them to be taken off so arizona can get a better return. once texas finally lands upton i bet there will be 3 or 4 teams blowing up dougs phone for hart.