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How badly will Ryan Braun get jobbed in the MVP voting? (Finished 2nd to Posey)

The stache

By The stache,
in Milwaukee Brewers Talk

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Ennder Carolina Mudcats

Ennder

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Is there any higher form of value to a team than becoming the biggest factor in that team earning a playoff berth? In a sense, Cabrera’s contribution to the Tigers’ division title might have been more important than the Triple Crown itself.

 

By this logic Austin Jackson should have finished ahead of Trout too since they don't win that division without him. If the Giants had won 3 more games then Posey would have been left off the ballot since the team didn't need him at all to still win the division. This is a pretty slippery slope to go down.

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StearnsFTW First Round Pick

StearnsFTW

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Still completely ignores the fact that Trout's team won more games in a tougher division.

 

I was reading through this thread waiting for this point to be made.

 

Thank you.

 

The whole "made the playoffs/triple crown" arbitrariness just blows my mind.

 

If Josh Hamilton hits 2 more home runs is Cabrera a slam dunk? If Detroit is in the East does Cabrera win? So silly.

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Ennder Carolina Mudcats

Ennder

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Still completely ignores the fact that Trout's team won more games in a tougher division.

 

I was reading through this thread waiting for this point to be made.

 

Thank you.

 

The whole "made the playoffs/triple crown" arbitrariness just blows my mind.

 

If Josh Hamilton hits 2 more home runs is Cabrera a slam dunk? If Detroit is in the East does Cabrera win? So silly.

 

To be fair this type of awful, terrible, inane, useless, obtuse, idiotic rational is used in all sports. It is the same as judging QBs by the number of super bowls won in football. Poor logic prevails so much when it comes to these discussion that it is just painful to have them.

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dlk9s Carolina Mudcats

dlk9s

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The "actual value of a player to his team" is the worst part of the rules because it creates the worst interpretations of what "most valuable" means. It creates confusion. On the one hand, people will say a guy is more "valuable" than someone else if his team makes the playoffs because, after all, without him, they wouldn't make it. On the other hand, it makes some people believe that a guy on, say, good team with 88 wins is more valuable than a powerhouse team with 102 wins because, heck, the powerhouse team would've still been good without the player.

 

Relative value to a team should not be considered. Each player should be looked at simply for what he did that season, regardless of team.

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craigharmann ACL Brewers

craigharmann

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When I saw 2 first place votes for Molina, I assumed they were St. Louis writers. They were actually from NY? I don't understand how anyone can think Molina had a better year than Posey or Braun? I guess perhaps the logic is in regards to his importance to the Cardinals. Still, he does not deserve 1st place votes.

 

Neck tats....plain and simple.

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DuWayne Steurer Wisconsin Timber Rattlers

DuWayne Steurer

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The whole "made the playoffs/triple crown" arbitrariness just blows my mind.

 

But the arbitrariness of formula stats like WAR or FLIPPY-DIPPY or BOOB-LOOB or whatever else someone makes up doesn't seem to bother you.

 

 

Yes. "Flippy Dippy" and "Boob Loob" are totally comparable to WAR or wOBA, which are an actual, reasonably accurate way to measure a player's contributions, and aren't actually arbitrary.

 

The best way to argue the validity of something isn't to question the accuracy of the statistic or try to understand how someone came to the numbers, it's to ridicule it in such an inane fashion as to render your point completely moot.

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Baldkin ACL Brewers

Baldkin

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The whole "made the playoffs/triple crown" arbitrariness just blows my mind.

 

But the arbitrariness of formula stats like WAR or FLIPPY-DIPPY or BOOB-LOOB or whatever else someone makes up doesn't seem to bother you.

 

 

Yes. "Flippy Dippy" and "Boob Loob" are totally comparable to WAR or wOBA, which are an actual, reasonably accurate way to measure a player's contributions, and aren't actually arbitrary.

 

The best way to argue the validity of something isn't to question the accuracy of the statistic or try to understand how someone came to the numbers, it's to ridicule it in such an inane fashion as to render your point completely moot.

 

IT'S FLAT I TELL YOU! THE WORLD IS FLAT!

"I wasted so much time in my life hating Juventus or A.C. Milan that I should have spent hating the Cardinals." ~kalle8

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dlk9s Carolina Mudcats

dlk9s

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The whole "made the playoffs/triple crown" arbitrariness just blows my mind.

 

But the arbitrariness of formula stats like WAR or FLIPPY-DIPPY or BOOB-LOOB or whatever else someone makes up doesn't seem to bother you.

 

http://i.imgur.com/Ww9jk.gif

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ORBrewerFan Prep Ball

ORBrewerFan

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The point is that a player's team making the playoffs or winning the triple crown isn't any more arbitrary of a selection criteria than using something like WAR.

 

Someone wants to go strictly by WAR and ignore "caveman" counting stats? That's their prerogative. But to say the voters got the vote "wrong" because they didn't use a stat that someone prefers is moronic. There should be many things that factor in who gets votes.

 

Trout has a better WAR? That should factor in the voting. Cabrera hits for the triple crown? That should factor in the voting. Cabrera's team makes the playoff and Trout's doesn't? That should factor in the voting. All these things and more should be looked at when making a vote.

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DuWayne Steurer Wisconsin Timber Rattlers

DuWayne Steurer

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I know exactly what it mean, Inigo. Do you?

 

One has to wonder. You compared WAR to boob lube and flippy dippy. WAR is a stat. Flippy dippy and boob lube are not. WAR is a stat that is derived by a players on field contributions. The word 'arbitrary' makes it sound like someone just decides "I've watched them both play, I think, based on what I've seen, Trout was 10 WAR, and I'll say, Cabrera was.........eh, about an 8 WAR". That's not how WAR works. It's not arbitrary. It's a formula based on actual things the player did, on the field.

 

Flippy dippy and boob lube are not statitistics. As far as I know, they're not even baseball related.

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Ennder Carolina Mudcats

Ennder

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I have no issue with people using made the playoffs or won the triple crown as sort of a tie breaker because they think it is too close to call. What I really dislike if the analysts who say that Trout was definitely the better player but Cabrera is who I picked for the MVP. Especially in a situation where Trout's team played better baseball they just happened to be in a tougher division. To me that is just a downright awful way to spend your vote.
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gregmag Draft Eligible

gregmag

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The point is that a player's team making the playoffs or winning the triple crown isn't any more arbitrary of a selection criteria than using something like WAR.

 

Someone wants to go strictly by WAR and ignore "caveman" counting stats? That's their prerogative. But to say the voters got the vote "wrong" because they didn't use a stat that someone prefers is moronic. There should be many things that factor in who gets votes.

 

Trout has a better WAR? That should factor in the voting. Cabrera hits for the triple crown? That should factor in the voting. Cabrera's team makes the playoff and Trout's doesn't? That should factor in the voting. All these things and more should be looked at when making a vote.

Based on your earlier post, I wouldn't go tossing the word "moronic" around at other people.

 

This new post is more coherent, which is nice (though inevitable), but it isn't any more persuasive. It basically says: "You shouldn't argue what you're arguing. You might be wrong, and therefore your argument is stupid. I, on the other hand, claim that all approaches to the problem are equally valid and should be taken into account. That is not a mere argument; that is truth, and I am therefore right."

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