Blue Jays close to acquiring Josh Johnson, Jose Reyes in "epic trade"

[adamb100]

The difference with Boston is Boston did not just get a shiny new stadium paid for by the city. The Marlins want to trim bad players/contracts? Fine go ahead but they better be signing more players and not enter spring training with a meager 16-30 million dollar payroll. The Marlins said they needed a new stadium to be competitive, now prove it.

[burnzy24]

Free agents go where the money is, actual location is pretty much irrelevant. As long as Loria keeps offering contracts like he did last offseason players will still go there.

 

 

Location is hardly irrelevant, if it was, why would these players all have full no trade clauses while many other have limited ones? http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/05/players-with-full-notrade-clauses.html (Its an old list but still proves a point) Once players hit free agency they want to control where they play. If Miami is refusing to hand out no trade clauses while pulling moves like this, players are going to be very hesitant to sign there.

[monty57]

As I think about it, signing a free agent to a bad contract, paying the first (leat expensive) season and then trading him for Top 10 prospects could be genius. If I knew we could trade Greinke away after next season and get some top young players for him, I'd join the "break the bank to sign him" crowd.

 

If these prospects turn out to be really good players, they could have the foundation for a really good team. They'll have nothing in payroll, so they'll have tons of money, meaning they can throw big money to fill gaps (and not spend just to spend as they did last year), and field a World Series team. Then they blow the team back up to bring back boatloads of new prospects, like they have after their other two championship seasons, and probably be a playoff team again 3-4 years later.

 

That may not lead to a lot of die-hard fans, but you can make money and put "World Champions" banners in the rafters. From a business angle, it makes some sense. Certainly moreso than the "let's do enough to be decent" strategy some floundering franchises seem to employ.

[RockCoCougars]

Maybe I'm under-reacting to this deal because I was desensitized by that horrible Dodger/Red Sox trade, but this one doesn't seem to be much different than the typical salary dump deals that teams (including the Brewers) have been doing for years. These generally blow up in the face of one team or another, and unlike that Dodger deal, I don't see a clear winner here.

[EdgarDiazRocks]

The Red Sox weren't receiving revenue sharing money.

 

is that really the only difference? revenue sharing? i havent looked to hard, but I couldnt find the amount the Marlins will be receiving.

 

If the Red Sox don't spend the money they saves then, no, there's no difference . . . Except Loria's history and that they KEPT Pdroia and Lester...re-signed Ortiz....that kind of thing.

[patrickgpe]

why would any free agent sign with the marlins knowing that you will be traded within 2 years since he does it with every big name player

[Ennder]

Maybe I'm under-reacting to this deal because I was desensitized by that horrible Dodger/Red Sox trade, but this one doesn't seem to be much different than the typical salary dump deals that teams (including the Brewers) have been doing for years. These generally blow up in the face of one team or another, and unlike that Dodger deal, I don't see a clear winner here.

 

I think the specific difference is that they gave an unwritten promise to put more money into the team when they were lobbying for the new stadium and then basically spit in the face of that promise just 1 year later. This ownership group has had shady dealings in the past so they don't generally get the benefit of the doubt. From a pure baseball value standpoint the move isn't terrible.

[Raw Biz]

Like most others have said, this isn't a terrible move in baseball-terms. But since Loria has repeatedly done stuff like this before and has shown that all he really cares about is making money, it's all very very shady. I think most here know about the shady Expos deal. There was even a RICO case filed against Loria. And I think it was his plan all along to do this. Even if they won the World Series, it wouldn't have surprised me to see the whole thing blown up, which is basically what happens to the Marlins every 8 or 9 years.

 

The difference between the Red Sox and Marlins deals is the the Red Sox got rid of some bad contracts to use those savings elsewhere. Loria basically got rid of the bad contracts to pocket for awhile. And yes we don't know what the ultimate opening day lineup will be but history shows us it will probably be bottom 5 in the league.

[RockCoCougars]

Maybe I'm under-reacting to this deal because I was desensitized by that horrible Dodger/Red Sox trade, but this one doesn't seem to be much different than the typical salary dump deals that teams (including the Brewers) have been doing for years. These generally blow up in the face of one team or another, and unlike that Dodger deal, I don't see a clear winner here.

 

I think the specific difference is that they gave an unwritten promise to put more money into the team when they were lobbying for the new stadium and then basically spit in the face of that promise just 1 year later. This ownership group has had shady dealings in the past so they don't generally get the benefit of the doubt. From a pure baseball value standpoint the move isn't terrible.

 

I can definitely see that side of it, but considering there is no 'salary floor' in baseball nor a written agreement for the Marlins to maintain a certain payroll, I don't know what they can do. Also, since the Marlins are getting some legit talent, I don't see how Selig can step in and block the deal 'for the good of the game' like Bowie Kuhn did when Charlie Finley was selling guys to the Red Sox and Yankees.

 

Bottom line, Marlin ownership will get their payback in the form of dropping attendance. It is dirty pool in the sense that with a new stadium, the franchise undoubtedly took a big jump in value.... also stadium naysaers around the country are going to use this example as an argument against public financing of stadiums. That said, I don't really think that they can do anything about it outside of pressuring Loria to sell down the road.

[Ennder]

Miami screwed up by not writing something into the contract about keeping a competitive team salary wise. The ownership group is criminal but they did it within the letter of the law so not much anyone can do about it.

[ORBrewerFan]

There was even a RICO case filed against Loria.

 

There was never a RICO case filed by the government. The minority partners tried citing RICO clauses when they sued in civil court. It went to arbitration, and the arbitrator found in favor or Loria.

[monty57]

why would any free agent sign with the marlins knowing that you will be traded within 2 years since he does it with every big name player

 

Money.

 

Miami screwed up by not writing something into the contract about keeping a competitive team salary wise.

 

"Competitive team salary wise" does not mean "competitive team in wins and losses." That would be a horrible deal to sign and say something along the lines of "We'll always pay more than x% of the league," as that would seriously hamstring your GM.

 

The ownership group is criminal but they did it within the letter of the law

 

If they acted within the law, then they are not criminal.

 

In regards to the Red Sox vs Marlins, in the past 93 years, the Marlins and Red Sox have the same number of World Series pennants. However, the Marlins have only been a franchise for 19 of those seasons.

 

I understand that some people won't like how the Marlins operate, but what are the ultimate goals of any franchise? If they are winning champioships and making money, then the Marlins seem to have found something that works for them. I also understand that some people don't like that the Marlins make money through payouts from other teams, but why is it somehow acceptable to use this money to pay a bunch of bums big money just to make a show of competing (like Selig did in the 90's) while it's unacceptable to stockpile some money while paying young, talented guys league-minimum, and then increasing the payroll when you have a legitamate shot at winning it all?

 

The contract which allows teams like the Marlins to recieve "welfare" is the same contract which allows teams to pay guys well below market value for the first six seasons of their career. Both are done to help small market teams compete, so I don't want anyone screwing with the contract, because that could kill the Brewers.

[Ennder]

You don't have to break a law to be criminal. If you are going to be a grammar Nazi at least make sure you are correct before you do it.

 

"4. Shameful; disgraceful"

 

They didn't have to write something specific about keeping a payroll of X but they could have put some sort of verbiage in the contract that would insure that the owner didn't just take the money and run as well. The bottom line here is that this entire situation looks like it was squarely meant to maximize the owners profit and had little to do with maximizing the talent of the baseball team and people aren't happy about it. He legally scammed Miami out of a lot of money.

[trwi7]

From Darren Rovell's twitter page. A letter from the Miami mayor to Selig.

 

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/full/687915113.png?key=462503&Expires=1353041521&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=rkEVnkonRNtrMMa7gVnL-Iv8FNkh~KCuz39nGRwkk~Z27RtNlT8eKc2nNdauuNVCGb3AEglBBdoXieHiCQKlW2VRNYlv-Xtk7cvsZy2arDXvzKauD-yxbSklW9749~P5nLEnh-F7mUK3X1BE~CiM8qCL8eYn6GUPHoPLFxVvHCQ_

 

[edited to include link to tweet - hawing]

 

[TooLiveBrew]

If Mayor Regalado wants to see the Marlins competitive, he should like this trade.

[endaround]

If Mayor Regalado wants to see the Marlins competitive, he should like this trade.

 

Based on what? The best prospect Miami received projects as a #3 starter under the best case. They gave up something like 8 wins next year for maybe a cheap few wins in 2 to 3 years. Yes the money evens it out, but to pretend that Miami received some large talent influx is just wrong.

[trwi7]

I think a lot of people in Miami and all over the baseball world would be okay with this trade if it didn't look like Miami was going to have a $40-50 million payroll this year. I'm not saying they have to go out and throw money at Hamilton and Greinke or something like that but if they would sign a couple of free agents like Edwin Jackson and B.J. Upton or something like that it would make it look like they're at least trying to put a respectable team out there.

 

It just looks bad when you say you need a new stadium to compete financially, get taxpayer money for it, go out and spend a bunch on free agents and then trade those free agents less than a year after signing them. If they were going to trade them, the least they could've done was trade them individually. I think you would have gotten a lot more if you traded these players individually instead of as one group, especially this early in the offseason. We're what, about 2.5 weeks past the World Series ending?

[JohnBriggs12]

A lot of the screaming about this trade is coming from where? You guessed it, ESPN. Now ESPN employs some smart baseball people, and they know that Miami not only shed bad contracts that would have tied them up for years, but they got back quality young players. They also know that Oakland won the AL West with similar talent to what Miami now has over the big spending Angels, yet I've yet to hear anyone bring that up.

 

Why is that? The answer is so simple. What is baseball to ESPN? That's right, it's the Yankee/Red Sox rivalry. Well, where did these guys get traded to? Toronto? The same Toronto team that plays in the division with the Yankees and Red Sox. ESPN is still reeling from the rise of Baltimore. It was one thing for them to have the story of the quaint D-Rays in the mix, but now Baltimore and Toronto? That just can't be. Selig has to act.

[monty57]

ESPN is a media outlet and therefore is all about ratings. Fired up fan bases are good for ratings. Stoking the fire by saying how badly they got screwed serves their purpose much more than quietly saying "they got good talent back, so let's move on to the next story." They are going to drag out any "big" baseball story they can get at this time of year for as long as they can, and they're going to play out whichever angle they think will draw the highest ratings.

 

Of course, with the dawn of the MLB Network and NFL Network, I probably haven't watched more than a couple of hours of ESPN all year, so I'm no expert on what it is that they are saying.

[torts]

you nailed it, this trade was ACTUALLY all about sticking it to ESPN.

[JohnBriggs12]

Where was this hue and cry over the Astros dealing Berkman, Oswalt, Bourn, Pence, Lee, Rodriguez, Happ (who they got for Oswalt), Lyon and Myers? Yeah I realize they did this over 3 years and not all in one deal, but isn't it the same thing? They weren't winning with those high priced guys, so they unloaded them.

 

Sure you could look at it as Loria pulling a fast one. But the guys he brought in went 69-93. I'm sure that wasn't the plan either. Reverse that record, and they draw 3 million instead of 2.2 million, then this deal isn't made. The guy's won 2 World Championships doing it his way. New stadium or not, Miami is still a small market.

[logan82]

It's Loria. If it was any other team there would be no problem.

[Ennder]

It's Loria. If it was any other team there would be no problem.

 

 

This is mostly false. If any other team begged the city for a stadium with promises of spending on the team and then gutted the team 1 year later people would be pissed. If the Brewers had kept one of the lowest payrolls in baseball after we built Miller Park most of the people on this forum would have been enraged.

 

The one spot Loria comes into play is the assumption by everyone that he isn't going to spend any of this money he just saved. He could very well go out and sign 4 or 5 FA again this year, it is way too early to know. But given his history the assumption is he will just sit on a bad cheap roster and try to gain as much money as he can.

[logan82]

If the Brewers had kept one of the lowest payrolls in baseball after we built Miller Park most of the people on this forum would have been enraged.

The Brewers didn't keep one of the lowest payrolls in baseball after Miller Park was built?

 

It is Loria. If it was any other owner people would be upset but the owner could come back and say they were building for the future. Loria can't say that and be believed because of past actions.

[Ennder]

The Brewers didn't keep one of the lowest payrolls in baseball after Miller Park was built?

 

They sat around 10th lowest which is higher than the county stadium days and not bad considering market sizes. Though they did dip when they brought up all the young guys a few years later.