Brewers position prospects continue to impress...

[TooLiveBrew]

If you can get lets say a power armed reliever for him, someone like Ariel from the Angels with perhaps less question about his command, I'd jump on that.

Ariel Pena with less question about his command would be one of the highest-regarded SP prospects in all of baseball, not a reliever. Nitpicking, I know, but still. Pena himself isn't yet regarded as just some guy who'll inevitably have to move to the 'pen (yes I know that has been said about him, but I've read it said just as much that he's a SP)

 

Long time lurker. This is my first post. I love this thread.

 

I am interested to hear thoughts on how Khris Davis projects as an outfielder? Can he play right fairly?

 

I would not give up Gamel. There is no reason to. He is still under club control. He has one of the sweetest swings you will ever see. I think we need to give him a fair shot.

 

I like our young arms, and I like some of our position players coming up. But, the one glaring spot is 3b. We need to develop a really nice 3b prospect. While I think Hart is one of the most under-appreciated Brewers, I would move him if we can get a really good 3b prospect. You're still covered with Gamel and Hunter Morris coming up.

Just wanted to say that it's really cool to see someone's first post on BF come in the MiLB forum.

 

Not sure why people have such a problem with moving Braun over to RF. Davis can be the LFer.

I doubt many, if any, MiLB forum regulars were saying the following, but heck -- some people were making the case that Hart wouldn't be able to play 1B. Some fans seem to think position switches are super tough. To be fair some are, but not flipping from one corner OF spot to the other, or moving to 1B.

[TheCrew07]

Not sure why people have such a problem with moving Braun over to RF. Davis can be the LFer.

 

Well apparently since Braun is a former MVP the only position he should move to (if he's willing) would be 1B. You see it's not about putting the best possible team together out of the players we have on hand, it's about veteran mystique and awards. You just aren't thinking clearly, baseball is about extending veterans until they retire, being a player at the trade deadline, and maxing the payroll every single year.

 

What we should really do is trade Davis, Morris, and Thornburg for a pitcher, resign Hart for 1B, count on Aoki for RF so Braun can stay in LF, resign Gomez because he's finally figured it out, and so on.

 

Veterans for gritty veteraness! Because all these damn prospects will never be productive because the vast majority of them fail!

 

 

Sarcasm aside, it's pretty disappointing that some have never put much thought into why complete rebuilds become necessary, not just in baseball, but in every sport. Very few teams in any sport are willing to keep a roster in flux around a core group of players and then not surprisingly when that team becomes too old and too expensive for the poor production on the field/court/ice the GM is fired and the whole thing is torn apart. Off the top of my head I can only think of 4 teams, 2 in baseball and 2 in football, that believe in a constant youth movement. Outside of the teams that have been discussed ad nauseam around here maybe the that's why the Steelers keep making appearances in the Super Bowl and have consistent success? As the old saying goes, it's much better to move on from a player one year too soon than 1 year too late.

 

Lock up your core, move on from the majority once they are past their prime, put the emphasis on development, and if you have good people in place the rest will take care of itself.

[TooLiveBrew]

Well apparently since Braun is a former MVP the only position he should move to (if he's willing) would be 1B. You see it's not about putting the best possible team together out of the players we have on hand, it's about veteran mystique and awards. You just aren't thinking clearly, baseball is about extending veterans until they retire, being a player at the trade deadline, and maxing the payroll every single year.

 

What we should really do is trade Davis, Morris, and Thornburg for a pitcher, resign Hart for 1B, count on Aoki for RF so Braun can stay in LF, resign Gomez because he's finally figured it out, and so on.

 

Veterans for gritty veteraness! Because all these damn prospects will never be productive because the vast majority of them fail!

Wow, words cannot express enough how much I enjoyed this.

[CheezWizHed]

...that's why the Steelers Packers keep making appearances in the Super Bowl and have consistent success?

 

Fixed!

[TheCrew07]

Well the 2 NFL teams were the Packers and Steelers, but I beat the Ted Thompson vs Doug Melvin drum many times and didn't want to revisit that argument again. Pittsburgh has had a very good run of success over the last 10 years, more so than the Packers, so I was giving credit where credit is due.

[Playing Catch]

 

Not sure why people have such a problem with moving Braun over to RF. Davis can be the LFer.

 

I would be concerned about having a decent LF arm in right and a poor LF arm in left in this scenario. But I could be persuaded to believe that Braun is a better defensive outfielder than I give him credit for.

 

In response to The Crew and TLB, I think the fear that I have about divesting the team of it's MLB assets and relying on it's MiLB assets is that this generation of youngsters, while decidedly easy to root for, are lacking in bona fide MLB All-Star talent, i.e. talent that is able to compete for postseason success. I have very little doubt that our system has a number of starting caliber players. I do doubt, however, that any of these minor leaguers would be GOOD starters on a GOOD team.

 

To be fair, this doesn't mean that continuing to re-up declining all-stars like Hart is the way to the future, but I think that the lack of faith in THIS group of youngsters could explain the hesitation that people, like myself, have with simply going young.

[TooLiveBrew]

In response to The Crew and TLB, I think the fear that I have about divesting the team of it's MLB assets and relying on it's MiLB assets is that this generation of youngsters, while decidedly easy to root for, are lacking in bona fide MLB All-Star talent, i.e. talent that is able to compete for postseason success. I have very little doubt that our system has a number of starting caliber players. I do doubt, however, that any of these minor leaguers would be GOOD starters on a GOOD team.

 

Apologies in advance for a long response; I hope it's not too long to put off people from reading it through.

 

I'm only talking about moving two players (Hart & Ramirez). That's not "divesting the team of its MLB assests", that's moving two veteran players before declining performance gives them no value. There is clearly the possibility that Hart would be willing to sign a contract extension for well below what he'd likely get as a FA, but unless that's the case, I definitely do want to see him moved this offseason, when he'll give his new team a full season of salary control along with a compensation pick should said team lose him to FA. On Ramirez, I really admire the guy as a player -- always feared his bat with the Cubs -- but again, I think he could provide a strong return in trade. The goal overall is to build a string organization, and I think those worried about moving on from Hart & Ramirez are possibly both underestimating what value could be netted in return for the duo, and also overstating the 'prospects usually fail' dogma.

 

I respect that people don't see another Fielder or Braun in the pipeline, but look at a couple Cardinals players if you would. Matt Carpenter and Allen Craig were never ranked in Baseball America's Top 100 (please do click their names/links, which are their MiLB careers). A quick-&-dirty stat-based-only comp for those two in the Brewers system would be something like Gamel & Kh Davis. My point being that both Carpenter & Craig are good baseball players even though they never projected to be star players. And I'm not arguing that I think both guys will sustain their 2012 production for the duration of their careers, just that they are valuable cost-controlled players who have contributed very well with the bat so far.

 

STL's 1B OPS so far this season is a cumulative .849 OPS, and Craig/Carpenter meant that losing Lance Berkman for roughly two months this season wasn't a critical blow to the team's chances at contending (like losing Gonzalez was for the Crew). They were able to make a similar signing to the Crew adding Ramirez in signing Beltran (my point being it's the kind of move the Brewers have room for in their budget), and kept their contending window open without committing eleventy-billion dollars to Pujols.

 

Imo one reason the Cardinals have been so successful over the past decade or so is a combination of having strong organizational depth -- which is comprised of guys like Carpenter & Craig, not the blue-chip prospects that get most of the attention -- and not being afraid of non-blue chip prospects being able to contribute (Jon Jay also comes to mind). Right now, while I don't disagree that the Brewers are lacking another Braun/Fielder in the system, there are enough players who aren't too far outside that Top 100/Top 50 status (& frankly, some who will jump into that crowd imo this offseason) that I feel confident that there's talent on the way that will wind up being productive in the bigs. Add in the type of prospects (think Segura or better) the Brewers would get for Hart & Ramirez, and I don't see any reason to be pessimistic about a window of contention from roughly 2014 to perhaps as long as Braun's contract runs.

 

I don't want to see the team try to re-load for 2013 just 'cause, because I think that inevitably leads to having to re-tool like what I & others are advocating later on, and then it would likely be more of a total tear-down since Hart & Ramirez likely wouldn't net you much (if anything), and you're probably talking about trading guys like Weeks & maybe even Gallardo. Then how many seasons of Braun's prime are we talking about 'punting' on, as opposed to perhaps only one in 2013?

[Playing Catch]

Thanks for the well reasoned and patient response.

 

I guess I am surprised that you think the Brewers could get a good return (you state "Segura or better") by trading Hart and/or Ramirez. Their value is, for all intents and purposes, limited to their 2013 seasons due to their contracts/decline. Do to this, I'm inclined to respectfully disagree on this point. Because I'm not convinced of a good return, I think their values are stronger as our middle-of-the-order representation for next year (and I think sometimes the value of one good season of baseball is undervalued. Sure we won't get a prospect return when Hart hits free agency, but we'll have him for his 31-year old season).

 

I agree that ONE reason for the Cardinals' sustained success is due to organizational depth, but I would argue that a far more important reason for their success is their having premier players (Carpenter, Wainwright, Pujols, Holliday, Molina(?)) surrounded by their "depth".

 

Returning to the thread topic, I see lots of Craigs and Carpenters and not enough Beltrans or Freeses in our system. I see Westbrooks and Lohses, but not any Wainwrights, Lynns, or Mottes. Hopefully I am way off, and guys like Khrush and The Mayor will be true middle-of-the-order threats.

[TooLiveBrew]

I guess I am surprised that you think the Brewers could get a good return (you state "Segura or better") by trading Hart and/or Ramirez. Their value is, for all intents and purposes, limited to their 2013 seasons due to their contracts/decline.

 

I realize that anything can happen in terms of trades, but the only real thing I based those comments on was that the Brewers got Segura plus two high-upside arms for 10-15 starts from Greinke. Dealing Hart (1 season+comp pick) and Ramirez (2 seasons+comp pick?) should probably get you at least, or close to, what they got for ZG. Ramirez probably not as much due to age & price tag... but I think you could still get at least a good arm for him.

 

 

I agree that ONE reason for the Cardinals' sustained success is due to organizational depth, but I would argue that a far more important reason for their success is their having premier players (Carpenter, Wainwright, Pujols, Holliday, Molina(?)) surrounded by their "depth".

 

Well certainly that's true -- and you can bet your butt you don't need that ? after Molina . And moving Hart & Ramirez, who I wouldn't include* in the same class of player as the Cards names you mentioned, for young players who have the chance to develop into those special types of players to me seems like the best way to add more impact talent.

 

I also agree that the Brewers' system as of now certainly has more 'Craigs' than 'Hollidays', and by no means am I suggesting that I think Hunter Morris or Khrush Davis will blossom into superstars. But I do think they can approach the good-but-not-great caliber production you get from players like Hart & Ramirez. Dealing Ramirez certainly creates a hole at 3B that there is currently no shining answer for, but that's a risk I'd be willing to take given that I obviously think you'd get back very good talent for him in return.

 

* As recently as '04-'08, I'd include Ramirez in that top tier of MLB talent, but not at this point. He's still very good for his position, however.

[CheezWizHed]

Pittsburgh has had a very good run of success over the last 10 years, more so than the Packers, so I was giving credit where credit is due.

 

This is true. And I figured you were referring to the Pack since TT always fields one of the younger teams in the NFL. But as a proud owner, I had to chip it in.

 

Plus, I figured FatterThanJoey might pop back in with an open Steeler reference like that...