Rick Kranitz has to go

[3and2Fastball]

So was last year a fluke year for Kranitz? No credit for that? What have you done for me lately etc?

[RockCoCougars]

The starting pitching outside of Wolf has been fine, the bullpen has been the issue. Most of the guys out there are veterans, so I don't attribute their sucking to coaching... they are just a vacuum.

[LouisEly]

Wolf pitched over his head last year. He was due to regress.

 

1) No, his 2011 performance was pretty consistent with his 2008-2010 averages.

 

B) The only season he ever had that was close to 2012 was 2006 when he was injured and only pitched 56 innings. No "regression" - age, or statisticaly anomaly - would have projected anywhere near this performance.

[RockCoCougars]

I don't think that there is a coach in history that could do anything with Wolf at this point. I think that he's just about done. His curveball has now slowed to under 60 MPH, and his velocity overall seems down. He'll have some decent games here and there, but a good chunk of the time, major league hitters are going to hit him like its BP. As we've seen, all it takes is one inning where is location is off, and you have a crooked number up against you in the blink of an eye.

[derflotr]

The title may as well be "Something needs to happen". I have no particular affinity for Kranitz, and while I don't think he's really at fault here, if he's fired, it wouldn't really bother me.

 

I used to blame Roenicke (or the rest of the coaching staff), but he really has no choice but to run out the same people. I can understand why the Brewers stick it out with Axford, but at this point, K-Rod and Veras can go. I don't think Loe and Parra are completely useless, but if they have to go, fine; just bring in some new arms - and for god's sake, let them handle high-leverage innings from here on out. The other guys clearly cannot.

[TooLiveBrew]

So was last year a fluke year for Kranitz? No credit for that? What have you done for me lately etc?

Exactly.

 

FIRE EVERYONE THAT HAS FRUSTRATED ME WITHIN THE LAST 1-4 DAYS!

[brewmann04]

Funny when the hiiters failed they called for the hitting coach to be canned. So i can understand why the calls for the pitching coach now.Wolf was do to regress but so did Yo to a extent.

[gregmag]

It's about accountability. Not only do they need to start dumping veterans in the pen, the pitching coach should go with them. Nothing he's trying is working.

"It's about accountability" sounds good, in a macho / parental kind of way, but it's an empty slogan. To me, "it's" about cause and effect. Look at what's happening, figure out what's making it happen, do more of what's making the good things happen, and do less of what's making the bad things happen. The problem here is that figuring out what's making the bad things happen is fairly hard.

 

Louis Ely's argument about the starting rotation seems to me willfully biased and agenda-driven. Estrada has established himself as a back-of-rotation starter over the past two years; Kranitz may deserve some credit for that. Fiers has made a smooth transition to the majors; maybe Kranitz deserves some credit for that. The rotation last year was world-historically healthy; he probably deserves at least some credit for that. Wolf's a soft-tosser who's getting old; pretending age-related regression can't possibly account for that seems very strange.

 

The bullpen was amazing last year. They're terrible this year. What do you do with that information? We know that relievers bounce around all over the place. You can blame Doug Melvin if you want for replacing Hawkins / Saito with Veras, but that hardly seems to me like an obviously devastating move. Was Kranitz a genius last year and an arsonist this year?

 

All I'm saying is, a flat declaration that Kranitz has done a bad job and should be fired seems like a big overreach to me. The people who are making the argument (here, at least) know a lot, but I don't think they know nearly enough to back up such a broad assertion. Now, if you want to be more measured about it -- if you want to say the pitching this year has really regressed, and obviously we should think about whether there's a better candidate out there to be the pitching coach next year, bearing in mind the complexities of the issue -- then I'll jump on that train from a helicopter. Thinking hard and cogently about whether Rick Kranitz should be retained seems to me like a necessary item for the offseason agenda.

[adambr2]

I do think it's probably impossible to know how good of a job that Kranitz does or does not do -- we really don't have anything to judge him by other than on-field results.

 

That said, I can't fault anyone who wants to put some blame on his shoulders just because of how far-reached this problem is. I don't blame Narron for Weeks' first half slump, I blame Weeks' first half slump on the fact that sometimes even prolonged slumps happen.

 

But this isn't one guy. This isn't a K-Rod problem, or an Axford problem. It's the ENTIRE bullpen. It's hard for me to fathom that every single pitcher in the bullpen is just having a terrible year by some crazy coincidence.

[gregmag]

I do think it's probably impossible to know how good of a job that Kranitz does or does not do -- we really don't have anything to judge him by other than on-field results.

 

That said, I can't fault anyone who wants to put some blame on his shoulders just because of how far-reached this problem is. I don't blame Narron for Weeks' first half slump, I blame Weeks' first half slump on the fact that sometimes even prolonged slumps happen.

 

But this isn't one guy. This isn't a K-Rod problem, or an Axford problem. It's the ENTIRE bullpen. It's hard for me to fathom that every single pitcher in the bullpen is just having a terrible year by some crazy coincidence.

 

But when you put it that way, is it really easier to believe that Kranitz said or did something that made everybody in the pen suck? It's not impossible, but if that happened, it would probably be pretty well known -- like he made them all toss a medicine ball around while blindfolded or something. If their joint collapse isn't a crazy coincidence, what's the basis for assuming it's the pitching coach's fault?

 

At the break, only Axford really looked like a train wreck. Remember when the others all had trade value? That was, like, three weeks ago. Then Axford blew the save against St. Louis, and RR quite reasonably demoted him. At that point, making Rodriguez the closer seemed to most people like a reasonable fallback for a team that hoped to get back into the race. But everything quickly went to hell. Rodriguez started coughing up save chances, and the "setup committee" of Parra, Veras, and Loe all had nightmare games. Doesn't it seem plausible that the chaos of role switches, and the pressure caused by failures at the front of the bullpen, messed everyone up somehow?

 

If so, I'm not sure how to parcel out the blame. DM put the bullpen together. RR adjusted their roles. Kranitz was involved in helping them making the adjustments. The pitchers themselves failed to execute their jobs. I just need to know more about what a pitching coach is supposed to be doing in that situation.

[JohnBriggs12]

"If so, I'm not sure how to parcel out the blame. DM put the bullpen together. RR adjusted their roles."

 

Was Bill Castro to blame when he was fired? Sure Melvin and Roenicke are partially responsible but their deals and relatively recent success have insulated them. What strikes me about this staff is that it leads the league in strikeouts and even the bullpen's K rates are fine. So why isn't the staff more successful? My theory is it comes down to 2 things. Fastball command and inability/unwillingness to pitch inside. One feeds off the other. Is this Kranitz not stressing it or not communicating his message? Or is it all on the pitchers? Hard to tell. But they can't dump everyone. But messages need to be sent.

 

Look, I favor dumping guys selectively because ultimately what's happening is damaging the brand and that's something that nobody in business can allow to continue happening. This team was sold as a contender. Guys getting paid handsomely to make that happen have failed miserably. Heads need to role.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

This seems like the typical talk radio type response to problems when things go wrong. All the good pitchers were already good, all the bad ones are getting bad coaching. I have no way of evaluating whether Kranitz is the right guy or not. The team had great pitching last year, this year is horrendous with most of the same guys. Same coach.

[Tedaldtada]

I really like Kranitz's demeanor on mound visits and think he provides thoughtful quotes.

 

Besides that, I really do not understand how anyone can pretend to evaluate his contributions.

[3and2Fastball]

When you are on the outside looking in, as we fans are, one of the indications of poor coaching, or possible poor coaching, or a potential coaching problem (however you want to put it) is a divided clubhouse, or certain players not giving their all, or players not trying/giving up/not hustling, or players complaining in the media and pointing fingers....

 

I've seen/heard none of that. That reflects a lot on Roenicke but it reflects on the whole coaching staff. I've seen zero attitude problems with the pitchers....

[joepepsi]

Jose Veras has never really been that good. He's basically been just an arm in the bullpen his entire career. That's really all that Loe is too, but both has been pressed into more "important" roles in the Brewers' pen. Parra missed all of last season. Counting on him to perform consistently well was probably a mistake. Krod has always been a roller coaster ride; I doubt Mets fans were sorry to see him go. It took Axford a long time to get through the minors because he struggled with command/control.

 

Sometimes one consistent, quality reliever can solidify an entire bullpen. He doesn't even have to be a closer. Just a guy who can come in and stop the other team at a key point in a game. The Brewers made a mistake thinking Veras could be that guy. They made another mistake by not trying to acquire another reliever early in the summer when it was clear the bullpen was not playoff caliber. But the team strategy for the Brewers this year was to tap out the payroll and dance with the date who brung you.

 

It also doesn't help that RR is terrible at bullpen management. Good managers make their relievers look better than they are by knowing how to juggle each pitcher's strengths and weaknesses, and by getting a guy out of there when he clearly doesn't have it. Leaving Manny Parra in to walk three straight batters after giving up a 2 run homer is on Roenicke, not Manny. In Parra's 15 appearances before that game he posted a 1.64 ERA with 16K's in 11 ip. If anyone should be fired for the poor bullpen performance, it should be RR.

[3and2Fastball]

It also doesn't help that RR is terrible at bullpen management. Good managers make their relievers look better than they are by knowing how to juggle each pitcher's strengths and weaknesses, and by getting a guy out of there when he clearly doesn't have it. Leaving Manny Parra in to walk three straight batters after giving up a 2 run homer is on Roenicke, not Manny. In Parra's 15 appearances before that game he posted a 1.64 ERA with 16K's in 11 ip. If anyone should be fired for the poor bullpen performance, it should be RR.

 

There is a huge and monumental difference in the quality of bullpen management from Roenicke to the greats like Tony LaRussa and Joe Torre, I'll grant you that. I just wonder how much worse Roenicke is than the average MLB manager. Yost used to be just as bad. Asking because I honestly don't know....

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

It was a mistake by DM and RR to think that our bullpen was OK with Kameron Loe and Jose Veras going in the 7th. That being said, I think just by changing the calendar that they will pitch better next year. I think that RR lets his pitchers get into too much trouble, and our lack of lefties hurts us as well. I think that our bullpen problems are starting to become mental. Like a basketball team that misses its free throws at the end of a game and blows it, and then misses its free throws at the end of every game. It also seems like relief pitchers who throw a lot of innings one season seem to have a hard time coming back the next year. I don't know if Kranitz is to blame or not but I expect him to be sacrificed. I have also wondered if we don't overuse our relievers early in the season. It seems that by limiting our starters innings that we use our relievers in consecutive days (3 or more) a lot early in the season. Ax, KRod, and Loe were used in a lot of games early this year. I remember that we did that a lot with closers in the past with and it seems we have had to make a lot of surprise changes in the past.

[LouisEly]

"Louis Ely's argument about the starting rotation seems to me willfully biased and agenda-driven."

 

Name one pitcher who improved from 2010 to 2011 or 2011 to 2012. Greinke has shown improvement compared to 2010 but not compared to 2009 - was 2010 the outlier? Other than Marco Estrada, who is questionable because he pitched a very small sample of innings in the majors in 2010, I can't find one. That is what I am basing it off of, not some agenda.

[zzzmanwitz]

It was a mistake by DM and RR to think that our bullpen was OK with Kameron Loe and Jose Veras going in the 7th.

 

2010 Kameron Loe - 2.78 ERA, 1.183 WHIP, 146 ERA+

2011 Kameron Loe - 3.50 ERA, 1.125 WHIP, 113 ERA+

 

2010 Jose Veras - 3.75 ERA, 1.27 WHIP, 111 ERA+

2011 Jose Veras - 3.80 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 97 ERA+

 

I think to say it was a mistake by DM and RR to think that neither Loe or Veras would step up to be a solid 7th inning option is a "hindsight is 20/20" situation. Loe was an above average reliever in both 2010 and 2011 (and actually still is in 2012). Veras was above average in 2010 and pretty close to average in 2011. 7th inning guys aren't shut down relievers, they are guys that more often than not, get the job done. I encourage you to go back to off season topics before this season started and look for people worried about our bullpen. Those people are few and far between.

[joepepsi]

Both Loe and Veras are journeyman relievers who have kicked around pro baseball for some time. Like most of their kind, they have better years than others, but are unpredictable from one year to the next.

 

I agree overall Loe has been OK for the Brewers. But it was known going into the season that he couldn't get out lefties. That makes him problematic for an entire inning.

 

An ERA in the upper 3 isn't saying a lot about a reliever because of the sample size. Veras had a 3.59 ERA in 2008 and a 5.19 in 2009. One year he pitched 50 innings another 57. The year with the high ERA was caused by a difference of 6 earned runs.

[zzzmanwitz]

I understand your point with sample size, I am just saying that to think that neither one would step up to be a good option in the 7th inning is more or less surprising. 8 and 9 were supposed to be locked down. I think the lack of success in the 8th and 9th is making people think less of our entire bullpen. Had they been better, the mistakes that loe and veras (and parra, dillard, etc) have made would be more tolerable.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I had more issues with RR's bullpen management last year than this year. The whole 7/8/9 inning role instead of using matchups is bunk IMO, but they all do it. Last year using Loe as the 7th inning guy when the other team was full of lefties or had the meat of the order up was foolish. This year, I just don't think there is anything he could have done. It doesn't matter who he puts in, they all blow up.

 

The bigger decisions will be with Melvin in the offseason deciding who can rebound and who is toast versus scapegoating pitching and bullpen coaches.

[RockCoCougars]

All that I can say after watching Veras this season is that there is a reason that he's on his 5th organization in 4 seasons. I hope that the Brewers send him to his 6th soon. An ERA in the high threes is not very good for a reliever anyway, and his career ERA is over four.

 

Is there such a thing is a trade that was bad for both teams?

[joepepsi]

I understand your point with sample size, I am just saying that to think that neither one would step up to be a good option in the 7th inning is more or less surprising. 8 and 9 were supposed to be locked down. I think the lack of success in the 8th and 9th is making people think less of our entire bullpen. Had they been better, the mistakes that loe and veras (and parra, dillard, etc) have made would be more tolerable.

Point taken. KRod and Axford deserve most of the blame for this season.

[RockCoCougars]

Veras is right with them. He's walking over 6 guys per nine innings this season, and I'd be willing to bet that he's walked the first batter he's faced at least 25 percent of the time. The guy is pure garbage.