Spin control is in full effect in Dallas

[The stache]

I just cracked open the Saturday edition of the Dallas Morning News, and it's evident that spin control is now in full effect in the wake of Zack Greinke's signing with the Los Angeles Angels.

 

News columnist Evan Grant had a piece where he states that the Rangers could have had Greinke if they were willing to part with Mike Olt, or Leonys Martin. But to paraphrase, "this isn't about avenging the Nelson Cruz missed fly ball, or the two World Series losses. This is about building a team that can win a championship every year, not one year". Without saying it directly, Grant applauds Daniel's stance, stating that Greinke would have been a 3 month rental.

 

But then he switches gears altogether, and starts talking about the Miami Marlins, who according to Grant, are also highly interested in Olt. He goes on to make the case for Josh Johnson, a pitcher who, in Grant's words, "could be the ace the Rangers need." Johnson was "on his way to being an ace when he suffered an injury last season", but his most recent start makes him think that Johnson might be on his way back. Signing Johnson, per Grant, would "not only be about this year, but the future."

 

Hoo boy. I know you guys don't live in the Dallas area, but I've got to tell you that this is par for the course. The Dallas sports media are some of the most obtuse sports journalists I've ever witnessed. Trading Greinke was the wrong move, but trading Mike Olt for Josh Johnson, who was limited to 4 starts in 2007, 14 starts in 2008, and 9 starts in 2011 due to injury...that's the "right move"?

 

Sounds like spin control to me.

[molitor fan]

Greinke, who leads the majors in fielding independent ERA, would have been a game chganger for the Rangers...In their final 16 games of the season, they play the Angels,who are 4 games back currently, 6 times, and the A's, who are 4.5 back, 7 times.

 

Maybe Aramis can go to the A's in a nice package to rub some salt in the Rangers stingy wounds.

[brettac1]

I would love if the A's got A-Ram, but I don't think they want that contract.

[The stache]

Just give me Jarrod Parker, and the A's can have Ramirez

[JackNicholson1974]

I am happy with what we got back, I think it is a nice package, but I really think TEX was dumb for not anteing up for Greinke. I would love to see Anaheim or Oakland or both pass the Rangers, and with their suddenly pathetic pitching, it is possible for Texas to lose ground and lose ground fast.

[fondybrewfan]

That package they offered up was really weak; they must not have wanted him that bad. You know DM went back to them after he got his final proposal from LAA and told them up the ante or he is going to LAA. They still didn't bite.

[Funketown]

I remember reading something via a reader on Fangraphs about some guy from the Dallas papers saying that in 2010, Texas could not possibly contend because they didn't have enough of a veteran presence.

 

It amazes me how bad some sports journalists are at understanding sports.

[jerichoholicninja]

Johnson isn't a free agent at the end of the year. He's worth more.

[Ennder]

I remember reading something via a reader on Fangraphs about some guy from the Dallas papers saying that in 2010, Texas could not possibly contend because they didn't have enough of a veteran presence.

 

It amazes me how bad some sports journalists are at understanding sports.

 

I saw an honest post from someone who said the reason the Brewers stink this year is because we lost Counsell and his leadership. People have all kinds of really odd opinions.

[RockCoCougars]

I have to admit that I would take some satisfaction in watching Texas SP implode down the stretch. I get the "win a championship every year, not one year" mantra, but as we've seen with the Brewers this season, injuries and other wrenches can be thrown into things.... easier said than done.

 

As we stand right now, I'd bet that the Rangers will end up trading for Garza (the second time that he is a countermove to a Greinke move, I believe). Then their fans will spin how he is 'just as good' as Greinke and under team control for another year.... plus a better playoff performer.

[monty57]

I remember reading something via a reader on Fangraphs about some guy from the Dallas papers saying that in 2010, Texas could not possibly contend because they didn't have enough of a veteran presence.

 

It amazes me how bad some sports journalists are at understanding sports.

 

I saw an honest post from someone who said the reason the Brewers stink this year is because we lost Counsell and his leadership. People have all kinds of really odd opinions.

 

Yeah, it was obviously Kotsay, not Counsell :-)

[joepepsi]

That package they offered up was really weak; they must not have wanted him that bad. You know DM went back to them after he got his final proposal from LAA and told them up the ante or he is going to LAA. They still didn't bite.

Wow. If Doug really told them he was going to trade Zack to another AL West team, then the Rangers were stupid not to up the ante. It's one thing to decide it's not worth the future for a 2 month rental of the best pitcher available, but it's a monumental blunder to knowingly sit back and do nothing while the team breathing down your neck works out a deal for said pitcher.

 

The Rangers should have been worrying how they will ever beat the Yankees in a playoff series. With Zack they had a chance. Now it's the Angels who look very tough to beat in the playoffs.

[ninja33]

If Doug didn't tell them that, he should be fired.

 

That's not me saying Melvin should be fired, that's me saying he absolutely told the Rangers about the deal he had with the Angels.

[Thurston Fluff]

If Doug didn't tell them that, he should be fired.

 

To be fair if Texas' GM believed what Doug told them he was getting from the Angels they should be fired as well. That would be putting a lot of faith in someone's honestly when no honesty should be expected. I think good GM's decide on a player's worth and don't go above that simply because someone else was willing to pay more.

[TooLiveBrew]

Wow. If Doug really told them he was going to trade Zack to another AL West team, then the Rangers were stupid not to up the ante.

I disagree; it's just the way the Rangers operate. Sure it sucks for them to not have Greinke right now, but the Angels overpaid to get him. Like the article 'Stache cited in the OP stated, the Rangers don't build for one season, and that's precisely why they're currently fighting to get to their third straight WS.

 

I could definitely see Daniels ponying up for Josh Johnson, who as others have already stated would be Rangers property through 2013 as well.

 

Also, the 'If DM did/didn't do [X], he should be fired!' posts are really old at this point. If some posters ran the Brewers, we'd go through 8 GMs per season.

[Oxy]

If Doug didn't tell them that, he should be fired.

 

To be fair if Texas' GM believed what Doug told them he was getting from the Angels they should be fired as well. That would be putting a lot of faith in someone's honestly when no honesty should be expected. I think good GM's decide on a player's worth and don't go above that simply because someone else was willing to pay more.

 

Exactly. Although if a GM plans to keep his job and actually negotiate future trades it probably behooves him to just keep his mouth shut about what other GMs have specifically said/offered. Heck, it's pretty much just a good principle to live by in everyday life. Don't spread rumors, and don't believe hearsay/rumors. Life is better that way for everybody. It's one thing to say "I've got other offers out on the table that are better than what you are currently offering--thus you need to up the ante" And it's another to say "The Angels just offered x, y, and z, so we'll need to get Perez and Olt from you to make a deal work" I would guess that Doug told him the former, and specified which players in the Rangers organization they like.

 

Then again, I'm just some idiot on the internet and I hate negotiating (at least if I'm on the selling end), So I pretty much know nothing.

[danzig6767]

If Doug didn't tell them that, he should be fired.

 

To be fair if Texas' GM believed what Doug told them he was getting from the Angels they should be fired as well. That would be putting a lot of faith in someone's honestly when no honesty should be expected. I think good GM's decide on a player's worth and don't go above that simply because someone else was willing to pay more.

 

Exactly. Although if a GM plans to keep his job and actually negotiate future trades it probably behooves him to just keep his mouth shut about what other GMs have specifically said/offered. Heck, it's pretty much just a good principle to live by in everyday life. Don't spread rumors, and don't believe hearsay/rumors. Life is better that way for everybody. It's one thing to say "I've got other offers out on the table that are better than what you are currently offering--thus you need to up the ante" And it's another to say "The Angels just offered x, y, and z, so we'll need to get Perez and Olt from you to make a deal work" I would guess that Doug told him the former, and specified which players in the Rangers organization they like.

 

Then again, I'm just some idiot on the internet and I hate negotiating (at least if I'm on the selling end), So I pretty much know nothing.

 

Yea, neither of us is a GM and thus don't know what exactly two GM's say to each other during trade negotiations, but i agree that it's unlikely GM's say to another GM that so and so team offered these certain players, now can you beat the offer.

 

It's probably more vague like another team has a better offer on the table and thus if you want my player, your offer has to include X player/players.

[danzig6767]

Wow. If Doug really told them he was going to trade Zack to another AL West team, then the Rangers were stupid not to up the ante.

I disagree; it's just the way the Rangers operate. Sure it sucks for them to not have Greinke right now, but the Angels overpaid to get him. Like the article 'Stache cited in the OP stated, the Rangers don't build for one season, and that's precisely why they're currently fighting to get to their third straight WS.

 

I could definitely see Daniels ponying up for Josh Johnson, who as others have already stated would be Rangers property through 2013 as well.

 

I agree that the Rangers seem to have a more long term view towards their franchise and that should help keep them legit being a playoff contender for years to come.

 

That said, in my opinion, it has to be tough for Texas management and fans to take the stay disciplined route after losing back to back World Series, including last year's absolutely devastating loss to St. Louis. In at least all my years watching baseball, that Game 6 loss by Texas was the biggest kick in the nuts loss i've ever watched a team suffer through. In consecutive innings, they were only one strike away from winning a title. Man, that game would still be haunting me if i was a Rangers management member, a player, or fan.

 

Getting Greinke certainly wouldn't have guaranteed Texas a title this year, but it would have increased their chances to both hold on to the division over the Angels and once in the playoffs, to have a SP with the ability at least to shut down a good offense. If instead they don't acquire a different quality starter, they face the real chance of the Angels winning the division, maybe missing the playoffs, and even if they do make the playoffs, not having enough pitching to advance far.

 

As for the Angels overpaying for Greinke, for me there to many variables left to be played out before saying that. Greinke could help them make a deep run in the playoffs, maybe even win a title. He also could resign there if he likes how things go this season. It'll take time to see how the three young guys in the trade pan out.

[TooLiveBrew]

Getting Greinke certainly wouldn't have guaranteed Texas a title this year, but it would have increased their chances to both hold on to the division over the Angels and once in the playoffs, to have a SP with the ability at least to shut down a good offense.

 

And they still have Olt, along with anything else they might move, in their possession. They could move for a rental player, or opt for a trade that doesn't just get them 10-15 starts of an impending FA. I agree that short-term, they lost out & 'should' have payed up. But my point was & is that the Rangers'/Daniels's m.o. is to build long-term. They of course did deal for Lee a couple seasons ago, and that didn't net them a WS title. You could even infer that experience (they paid 4 prospects for Lee on 7/9/10) may be what dissuaded them from ponying up for Greinke. In fact, Lee turned in a 3.98 ERA for the Rangers the rest of the way in '10 (but then was dominant in the postseason), so even when you get a stud, there's no guarantee that you won't see fluky down performance from him.

 

Imo a trade can't be analyzed based on a team outcome like winning a WS or not -- ZG or Lee alone wouldn't be responsible for that, win or lose. A trade has to be analyzed in terms of did you get good value for what you paid, and I think the Brewers absolutely got great value for Greinke. I really get the impression a lot of people discussing the ZG trade are really overstating the impact of 10-15 stats, even if you get a CC-caliber performance.

 

In the long run, imo getting even just Segura for a player you were losing to FA anyway is a big win (yes, I know there would've been a comp. pick for MIL). Then you add on top of that two very high-upside arms that are reasonably well-developed. That's why I think the Angels overpaid. The only other rumored offers I've seen (post-trade) that were supposedly made by TEX weren't close to this return. Ironically, Melvin did an awesome job by taking full advantage of the short-term team building that he's widely criticized for employing.

 

I don't mean to say that Texas didn't miss out on Greinke -- they obviously did. But I don't think they're as concerned about it as some think they should be. Besides, the trade deadline hasn't passed yet, and they still have time to work on other deals. Just like it may be too early to judge the return in the Greinke trade, it's too early to say that the Rangers didn't make a good addition before the deadline. Daniels clearly set a price he was willing to go to for ZG, and when the Brewers declined, he moved on. Given the flukiness of small samples, if they say traded for Dempster, it's quite possible Dempster could outpitch ZG the rest of the season.

[ninja33]

Also, the 'If DM did/didn't do [X], he should be fired!' posts are really old at this point. If some posters ran the Brewers, we'd go through 8 GMs per season.

 

I hate those posts as well. Even though that is literally what I said, it's not what I meant. My point was that I'm sure he told the Rangers he had a deal in place with the Angels. Poor choice of words though I guess, my bad. Like someone else said, he probably wasn't 100% specific or accurate, but I would imagine he said something along the lines of "Segura is the centerpiece, so we need a guy at his level like Perez or Olt to have a deal here".

[JJHardy7]

Also, the 'If DM did/didn't do [X], he should be fired!' posts are really old at this point. If some posters ran the Brewers, we'd go through 8 GMs per season.

 

I agree to a certain extent. I just think in general it is over reacting a bit saying Person X needs to be fired/DFA'd. It gets a bit old.

 

We all know the Ranger and Melvin ties. I would assume that a GM gets a deal he likes and then may tell a team based on what I have I need X, Y, and Z from you.

 

I do wonder what the Rangers will do. They may lose Josh Hamilton and their window may shorten slightly because of that, but they have a lot of talent. Do you throw prospects at Miami for Josh Johnson or do you stand pat? It'll be interesting to see what they do.

[3and2Fastball]

I think the Rangers will go after Ryan Dempster or Cliff Lee or Josh Johnson, or may even do a blockbuster trade for King Felix, who knows? The Angels overpaid for Greinke and I'm thrilled with that

[TooLiveBrew]

I do wonder what the Rangers will do. They may lose Josh Hamilton and their window may shorten slightly because of that, but they have a lot of talent. Do you throw prospects at Miami for Josh Johnson or do you stand pat? It'll be interesting to see what they do.

I agree. Obviously Liriano has been moved, but Dempster & Johnson are both known to be available. Although it doesn't sound like the Rangers want to pay what Miami is asking on Johnson; in general, TEX doesn't seem very interested in moving even Olt, let alone Profar.

 

MLBTR linked to this Ken Rosenthal piece posted earlier today (disclaimer: several of his suggestions are kinda bad & probably just 'stir the pot' type suggestions). I think the Felix Hernandez speculation is pretty reasonable, and since he's still under contract through 2014, that is a deal in which I could see the Rangers being willing to part with Olt, along with plenty of other ammo. They probably still wouldn't move Profar (but you never know), and Jack Z would have to think long & hard about if he'd move Hernandez without Profar coming back.

 

Even if the M's wouldn't make Hernandez available, I'm guessing Millwood could be had. Bartolo Colon (OAK) might be available relatively cheaply, Joe Saunders (ARZ) is a FA-to-be, and the Padres would probably move Marquis, and maybe even Volquez. There are still a lot of options out there, and the Rangers have the prospect capital to acquire seemingly anyone they want.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry, 3&2, I didn't see your post until after I submitted my post... walked away from the cpu for a while before completing my post

[RockCoCougars]

The way Dempster is dealing tonight, I'm sure the pressure is off the Rangers' G.M.