Impressions of Roenicke 2012

[PrinceFielderx1]

So far, I'm not liking the Brewers bench outside of Aoki. I was frustrated with RR when RR didn't go with Green or Conrad instead of Ishikawa. I was also frustrated with Kottaras making the team instead of Maldonado.

[fondybrewfan]

So people are worried about RR because the good moves he makes every other manager would do the same and the questionable calls that he makes (double switch) are just dumb because we seem to hold Gamel on some kind of pedestal? It was 2 AB's and he allowed a couple bench guys to get some AB's early in the year. Big Whoop.

[brettac1]

I don't hold Gamel on a pedestal. They were behind in the game and Gamel is the better hitter. Not to mention, it will almost certainly cue the conversation about how confident he is in Gamel.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I agree, it just wasn't a necessary move. Didn't really end up mattering much, but it was a good point to bring it up. Could've just used a different pitcher for that inning, or simply just used Estrada for one inning. But yeah, lots of managers make that move. It is what it is. I can't really hold it against him, even if I would've done it differently. It wasn't necessarily a bad move.

[derflotr]

Or that it was a long relief situation and Gamel was second-to-last to bat? Would you rather him swap out Gonzalez for Izturis?

[brettac1]

I guess I don't consider a 2 run deficit in the 6th inning to be a long relief situation. They have a seven man bullpen that had everyone available today.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Exactly, that was in no way a long relief situation. Going with Estrada and Dillard made it into one, but when Estrada entered it was a 3-1 game in the 6th inning. That's not a long relief situation at all. I don't see why 4 different relievers couldn't have been used there to cover the last 4 innings. Could've went Estrada, Loe in the 6th and 7th. Then see what the score was after that, and if it was close then go with some combo of Veras, K-Rod, and Ax depending on the situation.

[Oxy]

Exactly, that was in no way a long relief situation. Going with Estrada and Dillard made it into one, but when Estrada entered it was a 3-1 game in the 6th inning. That's not a long relief situation at all. I don't see why 4 different relievers couldn't have been used there to cover the last 4 innings. Could've went Estrada, Loe in the 6th and 7th. Then see what the score was after that, and if it was close then go with some combo of Veras, K-Rod, and Ax depending on the situation.

 

I would guess it is because it is very early in the year so the starters aren't quite totally stretched out yet and the Brewers don't have an off day for another 8 days. The bullpen is going to get used a lot in the next week, so if Estrada could give them two strong innings, great.

[logan82]

Exactly, that was in no way a long relief situation. Going with Estrada and Dillard made it into one, but when Estrada entered it was a 3-1 game in the 6th inning. That's not a long relief situation at all. I don't see why 4 different relievers couldn't have been used there to cover the last 4 innings. Could've went Estrada, Loe in the 6th and 7th. Then see what the score was after that, and if it was close then go with some combo of Veras, K-Rod, and Ax depending on the situation.

 

I would guess it is because it is very early in the year so the starters aren't quite totally stretched out yet and the Brewers don't have an off day for another 8 days. The bullpen is going to get used a lot in the next week, so if Estrada could give them two strong innings, great.

He could have gone with Loe for an inning then Estrada for 2 after the lineup turned over. He didn't have to double switch.

[derflotr]

Exactly, that was in no way a long relief situation. Going with Estrada and Dillard made it into one, but when Estrada entered it was a 3-1 game in the 6th inning. That's not a long relief situation at all. I don't see why 4 different relievers couldn't have been used there to cover the last 4 innings. Could've went Estrada, Loe in the 6th and 7th. Then see what the score was after that, and if it was close then go with some combo of Veras, K-Rod, and Ax depending on the situation.

 

I would guess it is because it is very early in the year so the starters aren't quite totally stretched out yet and the Brewers don't have an off day for another 8 days. The bullpen is going to get used a lot in the next week, so if Estrada could give them two strong innings, great.

He could have gone with Loe for an inning then Estrada for 2 after the lineup turned over. He didn't have to double switch.

Estrada was already warm, so Roenicke probably just wanted to keep the guy in rhythm for the next inning, and possibly more. He decided to sacrifice Gamel for Ishikawa instead of Gonzalez for Izturis to try and get multiple innings from Estrada, and hopefully have a lead or a tie by the time the 8th for K-Rod and Axford. I think Estrada's been effective enough to earn those innings - no, it wasn't a long relief situation in the sense that the game was over, but Estrada is a pretty good middle reliever who happens to be able to go 2-4 innings if he's on.

 

It didn't work. It happens. It wasn't controversial. I'm ecstatic Gamel is finally playing every day, which sounds disingenuous given the context of the argument, but we need to stop pretending like every one of his ABs is a cherished commodity. Not yet.

[TooLiveBrew]

Every at-bat for Gamel, though, is really important since the sooner he adjusts to MLB pitching, the better for both him & the Brewers. In addition, every rep he can get in live games on defense is important. This one game isn't a huge problem independently, but if it's an indication of how Roenicke plans on using Ish as his 'Kotsay 2012', then we have a problem on the larger scale.

[endaround]

It also needs to be mentioned than using Estrada for 2 innings in a 2 run game the day before your starter with arm issues goes made little sense.

[logan82]

Every at-bat for Gamel, though, is really important since the sooner he adjusts to MLB pitching, the better for both him & the Brewers. In addition, every rep he can get in live games on defense is important. This one game isn't a huge problem independently, but if it's an indication of how Roenicke plans on using Ish as his 'Kotsay 2012', then we have a problem on the larger scale.

Right. If we had gone into May without seeing something like this happen it isn't an issue, and may not be an issue now. It just comes right on the heels of this.

 

We felt we lost a great pinch-hitter from last year in (Mark) Kotsay and we're looking at a guy that's got some experience and he has done a nice job for San Francisco in the major leagues.

 

I don't question putting Estrada in, only pulling Gamel out for a worse hitter and maybe a better defender, maybe. Even that I am ok with in a blowout. It was 3-1 at the time though. I know he had a problem with double switches last year. It follows a pattern of behavior towards Gamel by the organization and the manager's infatuation with a certain player last year.

[MVP2110]

I just think generally people are overreacting to this. I think RRR just did it because he thought the move was the best move to make strategically towards winning the game, and frankly that is a reasonable argument to make

[logan82]

I think RRR just did it because he thought the move was the best move to make strategically towards winning the game

We realize that. We are just questioning his decision making and after last year this is just a continuation of that suspect decision making.

[MVP2110]

No one has perfect decision making and every person makes different decisions than others. Generally when you make a move against the book you are ridiculed if it doesn't workout. But if all he does is goes with the book he gets ridiculed for that to. Managers imo are grossly over-analyzed. It goes with the whole, your hired to be fired concept of coaching.

[PrinceEatMeat]

It also needs to be mentioned than using Estrada for 2 innings in a 2 run game the day before your starter with arm issues goes made little sense.

 

This is a really good point. That's a good reason to save Estrada. Now it'll probably be Parra as the main option to back-up Marcum.

[TooLiveBrew]

I agree that people (me included) are likely making a bigger deal of today's Gamel/Ish change... but it's the first series of the season against the main hated rival, who knocked us out of the '11 postseason. So it's obviously painful to lose this series, even though it's early in the season. And, with zero games to talk about in so long, the Crew could've lost to the Astros & people would still want to overanalyze everything.

 

On top of that, the concern for those most up in arms (probably me as well) is that Roenicke will do what he hinted at, & use Ishikawa like Kotsay last season. As in, a lot. Which is ok if Ishikawa's bat speed improves, but very much not ok if it doesn't imo.

 

Taylor Green so perfectly fits the mold of how Roenicke wants to use the 'Kotsay position'. He can play 1B/2B/3B & spell guys, two of whom could benefit from a few extra off-days. The outfield doesn't need more depth; Aoki, Plush, & Gomez need to be on the field as much as possible, given pitching matchups. If one goes down, it should be Schafer getting a call, not Ishikawa/Green. I just hope the Brewers get Green up sooner rather that later. Obviously the Cardinals are a very good team once again, and I don't want to see the team takes risks it doesn't need to.

[rluzinski]

Maddon makes unconventional moves, wears glasses and has had the luxury of managing a team with a nice amount of player talent the last few years. That seems to have convinced some that he is a great manager but I'm not sure if that includes the more sabermetricly inclined fans. MGL from insidethebook blog sure isn't a fan:

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/maddon_up_to_his_old_tricks_again/

 

And trying to correlate a manger's talent to a team's win loss record is largely a waste of time. Even when you consider player talent (which towers over manager skill in terms of correlation), you still have to deal with the luck factor. 162 games sounds like a lot but a true .500 team will find their seasonal record diverge significantly from 81-81, often.

 

It's very hard to objectively judge the overall performance of a manager.

[thebruce44]

Generally when you make a move against the book you are ridiculed if it doesn't workout. But if all he does is goes with the book he gets ridiculed for that to.

 

Maybe by some fans who only care about results, but I think this is a false generalization for this board.

[RobDeer 45]

Hey guys just wanted to get your thoughts on RRR's use of the squeeze play. I know there was a lot of back and forth on it last year. It obviously worked well tonight but I really tend to like the call unless it's one of your top hitters. I asked this last year but does anyone have any success statistics between a squeeze and swinging away?

 

I'm guessing it's like sex panther, 60% of the time, it works all the time.

[Ennder]

the squeeze play is so situational that I don't think there is a good way to judge when it is correct to use it or not. It depends on the defense, the runner, the hitter, how the current pitcher is pitching, the specific type of pitch you are expecting, the hitter on deck etc. I think it is usually too risky to go with but I just can't come up with a good way to quantify when the risk is worth it.

[Oxy]

Hey guys just wanted to get your thoughts on RRR's use of the squeeze play. I know there was a lot of back and forth on it last year. It obviously worked well tonight but I really tend to like the call unless it's one of your top hitters. I asked this last year but does anyone have any success statistics between a squeeze and swinging away?

 

I'm guessing it's like sex panther, 60% of the time, it works all the time.

 

I love the squeeze play when a good bunter & bad hitter is at the plate with 1 out; precisely the situation today. Although I was surprised that Sveum didn't see it coming, since I saw it coming. Late in a close game helps as well, although at that point it almost becomes predictable with Roenicke, which then makes it decidedly a bad option.

[RobDeer 45]

I also think even what the count is can matter quite a bit. If you know you are going to get a certain pitch or the pitcher needs to throw a strike, it greatly increases the success. I think even if you know it's coming it can be a tough play to stop.

[RightFieldCoder]

Maybe by some fans who only care about results, but I think this is a false generalization for this board.

Are you talking about the fans behind me on Sunday? They were loudly wondering why "worthless stats" like OBP, OPS, and WHIP were on the scoreboard.