Impressions of Roenicke 2012

[Nottso]

"Your Milwaukee Brewers; closer killers."

 

In just the past few years, we've witnessed the deaths of the careers of Eric Gagne, Trevor Hoffman, and Francisco Rodriguez; arguably 3 of the best closers in history. And yes of course they were all pretty much at the end when they got here, but still... just let that sink in for a minute. That's a pretty impressive list.

[jerichoholicninja]

I just don't think that RR has a very good handle on how to manage a pitching staff.

 

He doesn't have a clue how to manage anything. There are so many reasons he should be fired for but K-Rod/Ax last night is at the top of my list right now. K-Rod is toast and should only be used when the game is out of hand. Axford has at least put a few good outings together but Henderson is clearly the hot guy right now. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[3and2Fastball]

"Your Milwaukee Brewers; closer killers."

 

In just the past few years, we've witnessed the deaths of the careers of Eric Gagne, Trevor Hoffman, and Francisco Rodriguez; arguably 3 of the best closers in history. And yes of course they were all pretty much at the end when they got here, but still... just let that sink in for a minute. That's a pretty impressive list.

 

I would say it is more like this:

 

In just the past few years, we've witnessed the deaths of the careers of Eric Gagne, Trevor Hoffman, and Francisco Rodriguez; arguably 3 of the most overrated closers in history

 

But yeah, I hear you....

[igor67]

It was incredibly painful to watch, but it does make sense. K-rod has not been good, but he hasn't been so bad that it is impossible to imagine him reestablishing a little success and value. Axford meanwhile did have a couple of outings, and is coming back so you do want to keep trying to get him straightened out now

[jerichoholicninja]

Just saw this on Jim Henderson's fantasy profile.

 

"Brewers manager Ron Roenicke indicated after Friday's game that Jim Henderson will handle save chances for now. Roenicke made the comments after John Axford blew his eighth save of the season in Friday's loss to the Astros. "Henderson, he's the one guy that's throwing the ball good," said Roenicke. "We'll give the ball to him and see what happens there." Henderson, who was just called up last week after spending 10 years in the minors, has a 1.29 ERA and 10/1 K/BB ratio over his first seven innings in the big leagues and notched saves in back-to-back games on Tuesday and Wednesday. He's officially a must-own in mixed leagues. "

[dlk9s]

Not sure what the point is about Gagne, Hoffman, and K-Rod. Is it that the Brewers killed them? If so, come on. Gagne was already done - he wasn't far removed from a whole bunch of injuries and couldn't take PED's anymore (he was actually ok in the second half of the season, too, for the most part). Hoffman was obviously done - he used what little he had left in the tank in his first season with the Brewers. And K-Rod hasn't been "K-Rod" for quite some time.

[nate82]

I wonder if Joe Maddon was the Brewers manager and he had Aramis Ramirez bunt two times in one game how much would this board blow up.

I wonder if the Brewers bullpen would be one of the best in MLB with Buck Showalter as manager.

 

Bullpen management is the biggest impact a manager can have on a single game. RR continulally sets up the pen for failure. Unless management is forcing him to use KRod in the 8th, Axford in the 9th, he assumes an sizable portion of responsibility for their continued failures.

 

So Showalter's bullpen management last year was the reason that their bullpen wasn't all that good? Because if his bullpen management is the reason they are good this year then it has to be the reason why it was bad last year right?

 

The Brewers bullpen would be just as bad with Showalter or insert any MLB manager name here past or present. This has very little to do with bullpen management and more to do with the players underperforming I know you don't want to admit this and just want to use the easy scapegoat and blame the manager but the blame here is more on the players underperforming than it is the managers use of the bullpen.

 

Also if you are blaming Roenicke for this years failures you have to give him credit for last years success of the bullpen. Now what happens if next years bullpen is a good to a great bullpen is Roenicke now a good manager of the bullpen?

[JohnBriggs12]

Unfortunately for Brewer fans, the earliest Roenicke could be fired is sometime in 2014. He's the 3rd bad manager hire by Melvin. Most GM's don't get more than 2 hires. Melvin has to go before Roenicke. Since Melvin just signed an extension so he's got at least 2 more years.

[xisxisxis]

Ron Roenicke 2011 = Ron Roenicke 2012 = Ron Roenicke 2013 = ..... = the only manager to make Ned Yost look smart.

[chadomac]

Roenicke is not the problem. The entire bullpen is a joke. It doesn't matter what inning anyone pitches... If we don't have a ten run lead going into the ninth, we're losing the game.

[Nottso]

Not sure what the point is about Gagne, Hoffman, and K-Rod. Is it that the Brewers killed them? If so, come on. Gagne was already done - he wasn't far removed from a whole bunch of injuries and couldn't take PED's anymore (he was actually ok in the second half of the season, too, for the most part). Hoffman was obviously done - he used what little he had left in the tank in his first season with the Brewers. And K-Rod hasn't been "K-Rod" for quite some time.

 

Oh for God's sake... it was just an amusing little observation. A bit of joke. I apologize for not making that clear enough for you.

[dlk9s]

http://i.imgur.com/CwhXr.gif

 

Guess I'm just used to everyone blaming Brewers managers for everything.

[Team Canada]

I was genuinely surprised to read this quote from Roenicke suggesting what the majority of the board would advocate for:

 

Roenicke on Saturday seemed to propose a wholly new system of bullpen management, one in which there is no ninth-inning specialist and you use your "closer" in the toughest situation, even if that means pitching him in a one-run game in the seventh inning.

 

"When you have two or three guys who are throwing well, you can cover the games when you're winning," Roenicke said. "When you don't have that many guys that are throwing well, you can't cover all of the innings every night. It's impossible.

 

"So, do people feel better about us blowing a game in the seventh inning, or do they feel better about losing the game in the ninth? Is there really a difference when you lose the game? To me, it's a loss."

 

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120811&content_id=36521478&vkey=news_mil&c_id=mil

[TooLiveBrew]

Roenicke on Saturday seemed to propose a wholly new system of bullpen management, one in which there is no ninth-inning specialist and you use your "closer" in the toughest situation, even if that means pitching him in a one-run game in the seventh inning.

 

"When you have two or three guys who are throwing well, you can cover the games when you're winning," Roenicke said. "When you don't have that many guys that are throwing well, you can't cover all of the innings every night. It's impossible.

 

"So, do people feel better about us blowing a game in the seventh inning, or do they feel better about losing the game in the ninth? Is there really a difference when you lose the game? To me, it's a loss."

If he's actually proposing going back to a Fireman/Relief Ace approach, that's great. But my next questions are 1) does he just mean for the rest of this season, since the 'pen has sucked? ... and 2) did he really propose what the article suggests he did? Because in the two quotes you included here, I don't see him saying that as much as I see him saying, 'We are capable of losing the game in any inning the bullpen has to be used'/'We only have one reliable RP at the moment'

 

 

EDIT: Sorry, thought that was a page-counted JS story. Just read through it & stopped being lazy:

 

"Why?" he asked. "Because it feels different? It's still a loss. What if you're losing all the games in the seventh inning and you're never using your best pitchers to win games? ... The ninth is only important now because of saves. Everyone talks about saves, about blown saves. If you really want to do it right, and you really want to win that game and you don't care about saves, you don't care about players' contracts, you just want to win those games, your closer does not always pitch the ninth inning."

Then he's also quoted as saying, "I don't mind Henderson anywhere. I like Henderson," Roenicke said. "But it's not just the ninth."... so I still can't tell if he's actually thinking about adopting the Fireman approach as a key strategy beyond just this season, or if he's only referring to 2012. I will be pleasantly stunned if Roenicke ditches the conventional closer usage beyond just '12.

[Team Canada]

Yeah, I think your paraphrase is probably more what he's thinking, unfortunately. Still, at least he's not worrying about who he's going to pitch in the 9th.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yeah, I think your paraphrase is probably more what he's thinking, unfortunately. Still, at least he's not worrying about who he's going to pitch in the 9th.

Hah... Oh, I think he's worrying about it

 

But seriously, yeah I agree with you. I just hope he can deliver the message beyond '12 to Axford that the Brewers want to start using him differently. The only thing that it would take, imo, to get relievers on board with using them as firemen and not closers would be to pay your fireman the same you would a 'proven closer'. I was really glad to hear Roenicke point out how arbitrary the save stat is, that's refreshing to hear... unfortunately it's taken a bullpen nuclear winter for him to get to discussing it, but still.

[dlk9s]

I feel bad for Roenicke. He sounds like he's going to snap. Like he's going to show up to the clubhouse one day in just his underwear, plastered in Garbage Pail Kids and Nutella, and chewing on 5.25" floppy disks.

[jerichoholicninja]

I feel bad for Roenicke. He sounds like he's going to snap. Like he's going to show up to the clubhouse one day in just his underwear, plastered in Garbage Pail Kids and Nutella, and chewing on 5.25" floppy disks.

 

Hopefully. He would probably be fired for that.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

 

"So, do people feel better about us blowing a game in the seventh inning, or do they feel better about losing the game in the ninth? Is there really a difference when you lose the game? To me, it's a loss."

 

I disagree with this line of thinking. Blow a lead in the 7th, you have either 6 or 9 outs to get it back. Lose in the 9th, you either have 3 outs or got walked off.

 

Not a huge point of contention, but I'd rather have outs to work with. So if the pen is gonna stink, they need to stink earlier in the game.

[NievesNoNO]

Yes, this all clearly Roenicke's fault. He was a much better manager last season. Dusty Baker has made some big strides and is now one of the best in baseball!

[adambr2]

Yes, this all clearly Roenicke's fault. He was a much better manager last season. Dusty Baker has made some big strides and is now one of the best in baseball!

 

He actually wasn't a much better manager last year either, just a much luckier one.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think that was NievesNoNo's point

[logan82]

Going to a relief ace bullpen and sticking with it when there is a clear best reliever would be a big mark for him in my book. Wouldn't offset all the bunting though but close. Keeping Weeks up in the order and Gomez down would also help.

[jerichoholicninja]

Of all the reasons why Ron should be fired, number one is because of the number of base runners thrown out at home because of the contact play. I would be curious to know the number of times there's been a runner of third that's gotten out on a ball hit to the infield. It seems like it happens every other game.

[Oxy]

Of all the reasons why Ron should be fired, number one is because of the number of base runners thrown out at home because of the contact play. I would be curious to know the number of times there's been a runner of third that's gotten out on a ball hit to the infield. It seems like it happens every other game.

 

Has anybody actually run the numbers on the contact play or does everybody here just automatically assume that it costs the team runs? I think that the emotional reaction of getting a guy thrown out at home just drives people nuts so much that they try to avoid it at all costs even if it is a decent play by the numbers.

 

People do realize that if the contact play is NOT on, a routine out will almost always be made at first, right? The only time I think it's a horrible play is when there is only a guy on third and nobody out. How many times has the contact play been on in that situation? I can't remember any, but I haven't watched a lot of games this year. If there is one out and just a guy on third, I don't really like the play, but I don't think it is horrendous depending on the runner and where the ball was hit.

 

When there are 2 guys on base, the contact play is always the right play. If it doesn't work, no big deal, you still have 2 runners on base. But if it DOES work, you have a run, and if you happened to force a throw home, you have a run, you STILL have 2 guys on base, and you also have another out to work with in the inning. I would guess that it only needs to work somewhere around 5% of the time in order for it to be worth it in that scenario. You just don't lose very much when it doesn't work.