Impressions of Roenicke 2012

[logan82]

Good results≠good decisions.

 

I'm in the camp that says the Manager is less relevant than the players, because in the end it comes down to the players having to perform.

Less relevant, sure but not irrelevant. Our manager is poor at making good in game decisions and takes way to much of a hands on approach to the offense.

[PrinceFielderx1]

96 wins proves that wrong.

No, it doesn't. Like you just said, it's about the players.

 

I said a manager is "less relevant". I never said a manager is "irrelevant". To get to "96" wins you need everybody to be contributing positively and that includes the Brewers management.

[Oxy]

In-game decision making is Roenicke's biggest weakness. Clubhouse/personality management seems to be his strongest.

 

The former is decidedly NOT exclusive from the latter, however. If you are going to instill a sense of confidence in your team and players, you actually have to follow though with what you say, sometimes by sticking with guys longer than they deserve (Loe and McGehee). It's not like the Crew clearly had other better options at the time. Once they did (K-Rod and Hairston), Roenicke played they guys he should have. As far as the rest of his in-game decision making, I'll take the fact that the Brewers significantly outplayed their pythagorean record as proof that Roenicke knows what he his doing more often than not. Perhaps he just got lucky, but we won't really know until a few more seasons go by.

 

Kotsay in CF for the playoffs, however, is totally ridiculous and indefensible. I can't figure that one out.

[logan82]

If you are going to instill a sense of confidence in your team and players, you actually have to follow though with what you say, sometimes by sticking with guys longer than they deserve (Loe and McGehee). It's not like the Crew clearly had other better options at the time. Once they did (K-Rod and Hairston), Roenicke played they guys he should have.

I believe Taylor Green would have been a clear upgrade of McGehee and we could have done that in June. Sure you have to give your guys a long leash but half a season of poor play from a guy many expected to decline was more than enough.(not to mention dropping off the season before) How do other guys like the manager sticking with a guy who is obviously playing poorly? I also disagree with the manager playing the guys he should have after Hairston arrived. Hairston at SS and Green at 3B would have been the best choice in my opinion. At least get Yuni off the field against RHP and late in games for defense.

[dlk9s]

I really like this Impressions of Roenicke in 2011 thread.

[thebruce44]

In-game decision making is Roenicke's biggest weakness.

 

96 wins proves that wrong.

 

Wow, this is still being typed on this board?!

[thebruce44]

In-game decision making is Roenicke's biggest weakness. Clubhouse/personality management seems to be his strongest.

 

The former is decidedly NOT exclusive from the latter, however. If you are going to instill a sense of confidence in your team and players, you actually have to follow though with what you say, sometimes by sticking with guys longer than they deserve (Loe and McGehee). It's not like the Crew clearly had other better options at the time. Once they did (K-Rod and Hairston), Roenicke played they guys he should have. As far as the rest of his in-game decision making, I'll take the fact that the Brewers significantly outplayed their pythagorean record as proof that Roenicke knows what he his doing more often than not. Perhaps he just got lucky, but we won't really know until a few more seasons go by.

 

Kotsay in CF for the playoffs, however, is totally ridiculous and indefensible. I can't figure that one out.

 

As others have said, I think Green would have been a much better option than McGehee. I also think Ron lacked the ability to think ahead. Getting Green some MLB ABs in June would have shown us if he was a viable option later in the year. Same with getting Lucroy some rest occasionally to keep him fresh, or overusing some bullpen arms.

[jmeks23]

Honestly they did NOT have 'overwhelming' talent last year. Lucroy was average, Betancourt and McGehee were AWFUL, Weeks got hurt, Morgan had a good BA, but the offense was lacking from CF as well. The bullpen other than Axford (who was a question mark prior to the season) wasn't all that spectacular pre K-Rod. Post K-Rod RR had to deal with the 'who's the closer' issue, and he handled that well. The rotation on paper was borderline amazing, I will give you that. But Gallardo struggled to start the year, Greinke was hurt then struggled for the rest of the first half, Marcum had his issues in the end, Wolf was good, and Narveson was what he is, average. He got hurt as well.

 

 

My point is while it was a good team, nothing was guaranteed for them, Boston level talent or even Phillies level talent last year, and as you could see with Boston, there's no awards for pre-season talent level.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

The vibe in the clubhouse was certainly a plus and a positive that RR brought after Macha. Tough to quantify, but it seemed to help. I wouldn't dismiss this as a big plus for the team.

 

Melvin gradually Roenicke proofed the team last year with JHJ & K-Rod, but still couldn't prevent him from things like Kotsay in CF or first inning sac bunts. My concern is a team like the Brewers will never have enough depth to run on auto-pilot, which means RR will likely head scratch his way to some inexpicable decisions that will continue to confound us. Having a year under his belt should help as he won't be trying out guys like Gomez and McGehee for extended periods.

 

Not sure of the net of this...he could do worse, he could do better. Even when he screws up at least he's not a jerk in the post-game presser. Maybe my expectations are just that low.

[Baldkin]

Our manager, last year, for 38 games, decided it was a good idea to put the worst hitter on the team hitting second. 1/4th of the season, he had the worst hitter on the team hitting second.

Would you have felt the same if it had been YUNIB hitting second instead of Gomez? Because that would've been about the same thing.

According to McCalvy, it seems like he'll be doing the same idiocy again this year.

[fondybrewfan]

Do we really need to go down this road already? The season hasn't even started yet!! This is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. If the Brewers win it will be spite of RR, if they lose it is because RR. Or if they win it will be because RR is genious, and if they lose its because the players underperformed.

 

Around and around the carousel we go.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

I'm just looking forward to the first time a runner gets thrown out trying to score from third on a ball hit in front of him.

[Thurston Fluff]

Nobody has had a chance to see if his in game management, player management or playing time has changed so there cannot be a discussion of how he's changed in that regard. All we can even discuss at this point is has his spring training approach changed for the better or worse. Which ironically is the one thing I haven't seen discussed here.

Until there is a way to quantify managerial skills I have no idea how anyone can actually know what skills really matter or now good he is at them so why even bother? At least that is the approach I'm taking when it comes to him from now on. I know he's good enough to not prevent a good team from winning 96 games. That is enough for me to be getting on with.

[thebruce44]

Honestly they did NOT have 'overwhelming' talent last year. Lucroy was average, Betancourt and McGehee were AWFUL, Weeks got hurt, Morgan had a good BA, but the offense was lacking from CF as well. The bullpen other than Axford (who was a question mark prior to the season) wasn't all that spectacular pre K-Rod. Post K-Rod RR had to deal with the 'who's the closer' issue, and he handled that well. The rotation on paper was borderline amazing, I will give you that. But Gallardo struggled to start the year, Greinke was hurt then struggled for the rest of the first half, Marcum had his issues in the end, Wolf was good, and Narveson was what he is, average. He got hurt as well.

 

 

My point is while it was a good team, nothing was guaranteed for them, Boston level talent or even Phillies level talent last year, and as you could see with Boston, there's no awards for pre-season talent level.

 

Weeks got hurt, but they had excellent replacements available in Hairston and Green (never mind RR chose to use Lopez instead). They essentially got 6 WAR from their CF platoon. Not sure how you can dismiss that as its pretty much an All Star starter level of play if its one player.

 

I agree with your thoughts on the bullpen, though I think that has more to do with how poorly it was managed before K-Rod. Yes, DM managed to idiot-proof the pen, but for a small market team thats asking the GM an awful lot to do that year in and year out.

 

The starting pitching wasn't just amazing on paper, it was amazing on the field too. Estrada kept it together in Greinke's absence. Yo struggled after going what I thought was too deep in his second start of the season. Other than that, Marcum struggled at the end when it didn't hurt the team too much. I'm not sure why he was expected to pitch effectively up to 200 innings. Part of that is on DM as well as RR.

 

Granted its nearly impossible to say how many games RR cost us or to attribute how well players performed because of or in spite of him. Its also easy to look back and say things like the CF platoon "wasn't that good."

 

Nearly all we can look at are his decisions and the process by which he made them. In that respect, he was a pretty giant failure in my opinion.

[PKBadger]

Do we really need to go down this road already? The season hasn't even started yet!! This is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. If the Brewers win it will be spite of RR, if they lose it is because RR. Or if they win it will be because RR is genious, and if they lose its because the players underperformed.

 

Around and around the carousel we go.

 

 

 

Once you accept that the BF.net community will only be happy if our manager is a cyborg constructed from Earl Weaver's brain, it's easier to just gloss over these threads.

 

All managers do dumb things sometimes. I'm not going to defend the Kotsay decision, I hated it as much as the rest of you. Personally, I'm giving RR a long leash because he comes from the Scoscia coaching tree, the players responded to him and I feel like first-time MLB managers need some time to "grow into" the job, even if they've managed at other levels.

 

 

Edit: not sure why I thought Weaver was dead. Really hurt my cyborg hypothetical.

[TooLiveBrew]

Once you accept that the BF.net community will only be happy if our manager is a cyborg constructed from Earl Weaver's brain, it's easier to just gloss over these threads.

Get on this, scientists!

[RobDeer 45]

Haha, that is a good one! Very true.

[MVP2110]

Do we really need to go down this road already? The season hasn't even started yet!! This is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. If the Brewers win it will be spite of RR, if they lose it is because RR. Or if they win it will be because RR is genious, and if they lose its because the players underperformed.

 

Around and around the carousel we go.

 

 

 

Once you accept that the BF.net community will only be happy if our manager is a cyborg constructed from Earl Weaver's brain, it's easier to just gloss over these threads.

 

All managers do dumb things sometimes. I'm not going to defend the Kotsay decision, I hated it as much as the rest of you. Personally, I'm giving RR a long leash because he comes from the Scoscia coaching tree, the players responded to him and I feel like first-time MLB managers need some time to "grow into" the job, even if they've managed at other levels.

 

 

Edit: not sure why I thought Weaver was dead. Really hurt my cyborg hypothetical.

 

I completely agree with this. No manager makes perfect decisions that all the fans like mainly because there are so many options for each decision that he could possibly make. If he goes in the box thinking fans will complain about that. If he gets creative and it doesn't work then fans will create that. Managers are hired to be fired. Its just the way it is, the only way to keep your job is to win, regardless of the talent level you are given. I honestly think RRR is an above average manager

[YoungGeezy]

Like usual, with nearly every manager in history of baseball, half the fans are always looking for every single reason to fire the manager, the other half is trying to defend why the manager is good. Some people naturally are the more negitive, nit pick, FIRE HIM type of fan. It doesn't matter the good or the bad that they do, they will find a reason to want him fired. (just try reading jsonline forum.....) he bunted in this situation, he brought this guy in in this situation, he played this guy or he is just an idiot!FIRE HIM.

 

There are some things that are more important than the few mistakes here and there throughout a 162 game schedule. He may not be a mad scientist like TRL but with talent teams like the crew, you don't need to be. What he does have the abiity to do is to communicate, relate, and gain respect of every player in the locker room. That is INTANGABLE. He gets the players to go out there and play hard and finds creative ways to try to produce runs that are much more exciting to watch as a fan. I'd take his mangerial style 110 out 100 if I could over Ken Macha's moneyball, none agressive way of basball. Just look at Greinke, he is not an easy guy to manage or to get to trust you and earn his respect. Now it appears that RRR may be one of the biggest reasons he'd stay in Milwaukee. Players love guy.

 

Fans are always the best manager in the world but every manager no matter how great in the MLB will make decisions that fans will disagree with and nag about. There is only so much a manager can do. Players hold almost all the cards on how the team performs. He had a few errors in strategy but it was his first year and that will happen. The Cards will see a bunch of that as well this season.

 

Overall I think what he offers far outweighs what he lacks and I see the Brewers being just as competitive. Strategy should improve now that he has a year under belt. Most important is how healthy they stay.

[Ennder]

Even when a manager does something boneheaded a lot of times there is some logical reason for it. Whether someone has a little injury that made them unavailable or was just sick or there was something in the scouting report that we aren't aware of etc. The manager has to consistently do things that bother me like Yost's general bullpen management for me to really dislike them. Starting Kotsay so much last year got Roenicke off on a bad note for me but the rest of the season he was at least adequate.

[dlk9s]

We should ask Roenicke's dentist for his impression.

[Thurston Fluff]

He had a few errors in strategy but it was his first year and that will happen. The Cards will see a bunch of that as well this season.

 

The Cards saw errors in strategy last year as well and they had a hall of fame in waiting making the decisions. When there are literally thousands of decisions made over the course of a year there will be some errors. There will also be some decisions that look bad in the short term but have positive long term implications. Playing bench players often early is one that comes to mind. Keeping bench players sharp requires them to play and keeping regulars from wearing down requires them to sit some.

[TooLiveBrew]

Edit: not sure why I thought Weaver was dead. Really hurt my cyborg hypothetical.

I disagree -- it just means you can assimilate him, like the Borg.

[MVP2110]

Not only are they thousands of decisions to be made. All of those decisions have at least 2 potential choices if not more and there are always going to be fans on each side of the decision. Therefore it is impossible to make all the fans happy. Imagine if you were managing. would all the fans agree with all your decisions?

[thebruce44]

Coat it however you guys want, RR made some really puzzling calls and when asked to explain them showed a complete lack of logical decision making ability.

 

I don't mind someone making a decision that doesn't work out. I mind them making that decision for stupid reasons.