Impressions of Roenicke 2012

[torts]

If Aoki is a good hitter, why would you want him bunting?

Bat control, probability of laying down a good bunt, score a run. Yes Aoki is a good hitter but he does strike out, hit groundouts to 3rd and the pitcher, and hit weak pop up outs. RRR saw an opportunity to put 1 in the board and took it.

 

 

Keep bunting, RR! You are making the Brewers a better threat to score runs in multiple ways. The THREAT to steal/bunt can occupy the pitcher's and manager's minds, producing errors and misplays by the opposition.

I also agree with this, it will start being on the minds of other teams and maybe influence defensive positioning.

 

I want Aoki bunting because he's REALLY GOOD AT IT!

 

Also, just noticed, last 3 wins, all 1 run games. granted, last night was a meltdown... but they're starting to win the close ones.

[adambr2]

I wouldn't put much stock into winning a few close ones in a row. Nothing more than random luck.

 

I also can't really concur with the general consensus on bunting here. Bunting excessively doesn't make you a bigger scoring threat, it makes you more predictable. Part of the advantage of bunting is the element of surprise, and there is absolutely no element of surprise in our bunting anymore. You're not going to bunt for too many base hits when it's constantly anticipated.

 

I would be very surprised if there is any statistical evidence that excessive bunting leads to more errors and misplays by the opposition.

 

You have 27 outs to work with in a game, and especially for a power-oriented team, I can't see how giving away 20% of those outs makes your offense better. I understand it late in a tie game or 1 run game where it's worthwhile to sacrifice the chance of a multiple run inning for a better chance to score 1.

 

Yesterday with 1 out, we sacrificed our #8 hitter to put a RISP for our pitcher with 2 outs. Granted, Izturis sucks, but no matter how you look at it, I can't make sense of it. Sac bunting your #8 hitter to give your pitcher a 2 out AB with RISP. That's insane.

[HiAndTight]

Seriously. I'm not being sarcastic, I miss Yost. I think this team is 5-6 games better with Yost.

 

Last year I thought that Roenicke got way too much crap. This year, I just genuinely think he's about as bad as you can get.

 

-Taking out Greinke WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO SHOWCASE HIM and you're winning with 87 pitches...

-Taking out Axford for K-Rod when they're both struggling and one is your future long term closer and the other is going to be gone.

 

-The safety squeezes TWICE today with the PITCHER on deck....

-And of course the single move that if you're in Boston, New York, Philly might have gotten you straight up fired for that single move, the move that may well have cost the Brewers a chance to win the world series......starting Mark Kotsay in CF with the best defensive CF'er in the game(IMO) and another very good one in Morgan, you instead opt for a 1st basemen in center field.

 

Look, you can't win without good players, and even then, if you lose, it's not always on the manager, and this season's struggles are not all on Roenicke. Last year it seemed to me that his shifts, the way he seemed to improve as the year went on with the BP and the lineup(ie, Hairston Jr.) among other things kinda negated his pitfalls.

 

But he's gotten worse. I imagined he'd learn from his mistakes, but he's literally gotten worse.

 

And the Greinke decision...on every level was just mind blowingly stupid. He said he still felt strong, he was just blowing the Phills away, retired 18 of last 19 and last 13 overall, 12 ground balls I believe, and you had dozens of scouts there. So it cost you a game, AND Greinke going 9 and just a few over the minimum would have been a pretty impactful way to say, "hey, he's just fine, my asinine decision to start him three straight times didn't screw him up."

 

Oh, and of course there is the issue with young players. Actually using about 9 of Gamels at bats last year(it was obviously more...) to point out some correlation between he and Green was just amazing.

 

Bottom line- There are but a few pitching coaches, managers and hitting coaches IMO that make a difference out there in a positive way. Most coaches make the same decisions. But RR has just made so many poor decisions, our pitchers nibble despite having great stuff and our hitters....I guess are fine, but aside from that, with this being the year of mass exodus from the Milwaukee organizaton with Grienke, maybe Marcum(guessing he'll be back for the arby #), Wolf, K-Rod and the other 6-7 players who probably won't be back(Kottaras, Veras, Loe, Izturis, Ransom, Ishi...) I think the coaching staff HAS to follow them out the door.

 

This team can't go forward with the same coaches.

 

 

I have NEVER been more frustrated with a team in my life. This is a team that has all the talent it needs to win this division. This is a more talented team than Pitt and most of the NL. Luck has hurt us, the pen has KILLED us, our record is not all on Roenicke, but he's shown enough. He's not equipped to manage at this level. Simple as that.

[zzzmanwitz]

-Taking out Greinke WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO SHOWCASE HIM and you're winning with 87 pitches...

-Taking out Axford for K-Rod when they're both struggling and one is your future long term closer and the other is going to be gone.

 

What is wrong with either of those things?

 

1) Greinke showed what he had to show. Now there is a feeding frenzy over him. Sending him out for the 8th could have only lowered his value.

2) We tried to showcase K-Rod as a potential closer and it didn't work. Ax wasn't getting the job done either, so its hard to say if we would have won any more games.

3) We are not making the playoffs this year. Losing games is not a bad thing at this point, it only improves our draft position.

4) I agree with you on squeeze plays and Kotsay issues.

[jjfanec]

The Greinke decision was the right one and I am actually it came from Melvin. Last night's game was all about showcasing Greinke and he had shown everything. You know you are trading the guy and there is no reason to throw him back out there. He had done his job which was to drive back up his trade price. If Greinke gets hurt or rocked in the 8th people would have had Ron's head.

 

The Kotsay decision was terrible and the bunting gets old. Ron is not without his faults for sure, but the Greinke decision is not one of them

[adambr2]

Agree that Roenicke is an awful, awful manager, who is unfortunately well-liked which makes him overrated and harder to get rid of.

 

Disagree that the Greinke decision was bad. We had everything to lose and nothing to gain by one more inning of him.

[FVBrewerFan]

I'm no fan of RR by a long shot. But look at your own comment. WHEN THEY"RE TRYING TO SHOWCASE HIM. You don't think a dominant 7 innings is showcasing him? So he throws another shutout inning, how does that possibly increase his value? And the downside is he gets rocked in the 8th, or worse gets injured.

 

Zero downside taking him out after the 7th. Lots of downside keeping him in another inning.

[502 to Right]

-Taking out Greinke WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO SHOWCASE HIM and you're winning with 87 pitches...

-Taking out Axford for K-Rod when they're both struggling and one is your future long term closer and the other is going to be gone.

 

And the Greinke decision...on every level was just mind blowingly stupid. He said he still felt strong, he was just blowing the Phills away, retired 18 of last 19 and last 13 overall, 12 ground balls I believe, and you had dozens of scouts there. So it cost you a game, AND Greinke going 9 and just a few over the minimum would have been a pretty impactful way to say, "hey, he's just fine, my asinine decision to start him three straight times didn't screw him up."

 

 

Pulling Greinke after 7 innings was a good move (and was probably ordered by DM). What GM is going say, "well sure Greinke pitched great for 7 innings but I would like to see what he could do in the 9th before I trade for him"? Putting Greinke out there for the 8th could ONLY have hurt. What if he put 2 runners on and gave up a HR? That puts a damper on his outing. RR made the right move there. And quite frankly the goal of last night was not to win. This team is not going to the playoffs. The goal was to showcase Greinke and they did that--in spades.

 

And how can anyone criticize removing Ax from the closer's role after the crap he's thrown up recently? Honestly, the bullpen is so bad right now there are no right or wrong choices out there. Everyone is bad. When a team can't hold a 5 run lead in the 9th the team is cooked. And the Brewers are cooked right now.

 

As for Ned Yost--I'd rather be waterboarded than have him manage the team again.

[Bombers]

As for Ned Yost--I'd rather be waterboarded than have him manage the team again.

 

HAHAHAHA. Sup pitched great!

[HiAndTight]

-Taking out Greinke WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO SHOWCASE HIM and you're winning with 87 pitches...

-Taking out Axford for K-Rod when they're both struggling and one is your future long term closer and the other is going to be gone.

 

What is wrong with either of those things?

 

1) Greinke showed what he had to show. Now there is a feeding frenzy over him. Sending him out for the 8th could have only lowered his value.

2) We tried to showcase K-Rod as a potential closer and it didn't work. Ax wasn't getting the job done either, so its hard to say if we would have won any more games.

3) We are not making the playoffs this year. Losing games is not a bad thing at this point, it only improves our draft position.

4) I agree with you on squeeze plays and Kotsay issues.

 

 

WE...WE THE FANS want to lose games this year, not the manager, not the players, not the front office. The fact that Roenicke is managing the way he is while trying to win, might be good for the fans who realize now it's over(and I would bet anything they have something like a 20-10 August) but if this is how he manages when he's TRYING to win? C'mon.

 

And what's wrong with taking out a pitcher who you're trying to showcase who's at 87 pitches and is absoltuely dominating? I don't know. Common sense. If it was 100 pitches, fine. But a complete game 3 hitter going just a couple over the minimium up till that point at 87 pitches and looking as good as he looks there was no reason to take him out. AT LEAST throw him back out there for the 8th, and a CG would have made an even better impression.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I miss Ned too...he would have given us a solid "K-Rod pitched great" today after the game. Plus, Maldonado would be getting more work down at Nashville after we picked up Jason Kendall.

 

Without question, pulling Greinke was the absolute right thing to do yesterday. There are no good options in the bullpen, they all stink. Other than that...yes, the bunt stuff, the Kotsay in CF and starting Marcum in game 6 last year all make me scratch my head...but Ned wasn't very good either.

[zzzmanwitz]

I guess you are going to disagree with everyone else here on leaving him in for the 8th, and that is your opinion. I just have a hard time thinking him giving up 3 runs in the 8th would have been a lot worse for the brewers than him going out there and throwing another shut out inning would have gained us. Scouts and other GMs seem very pleased by what they saw.

[fondybrewfan]

Yeah we totally would be awesome if Nedly was our manager. (Eye Roll)

 

Personally I think we would be in 1st place if we still had Davey Lopes.

[MJLiverock]

It actually astounds me that anyone would have a problem with Greinke being pulled after 7 last night. He pitched 7 great innings, there was absolutely nothing to be gained by leaving him in longer, zero, zip, nada. Winning the game meant nothing to the team, if Greinke is traded they are announcing to the world they are sellers and giving up on the season, why play with fire and expose yourself to nothing but downside risk to try and win one more game in a season where you are not playing for the playoffs? Not to mention Melvin probably made the call on how long he was going to pitch and expecting a bullpen to hold a 5 run lead for a couple innings isn't exactly pushing the envelope of game decisions, no matter how bad a pen the team has.

 

Axford pretty much had to come out of the closer role, he was completely ineffective, lost command and likely had some head issues with self doubt, anger at himself, etc. KRod was the likely choice just because he had done it before and really no one else in that terrible bullpen was shining and pushing for the role. Now KRod likely comes out and either Axford steps back in or they run it situationally for a while. Given the performances of the guys in that pen I don't think anyone of them makes any decision seem smart or stupid because they all have been terrible, not even 20/20 hindsight offers up better options than the ones made because they have all failed when given the opportunity.

[502 to Right]

You can't possibly put any of the bullpen woes on RR. When every single pitcher you have in the bullpen walks out to the mound with a gas can and matches there's nothing a manager can do.

[davego]

As for Ned Yost--I'd rather be waterboarded than have him manage the team again.

 

...water boarding is so 2005.

[Baldkin]

Last season he hit Carlos Gomez 2nd the overwhelming majority of his starts.

Last season he thought Kameron Loe could get lefties out, despite 4 years of evidence he couldn't.

Last season he thought Felipe Lopez was a better option than Taylor Green.

Last season he thought Casey McGehee was a better option than Taylor Green or anyone else.

Last season he thought that every playoff game should be managed just like a regular season game.

 

I guess I cannot understand why you thought he was a good manager last year. Last year, everything went right, and the talent overwhelmed his bad decisions. Yost was just as bad.

 

I miss Macha.... but wait, the players hated him. Go look at the two teams he had, and the fact that they won 76 and 78 games.

 

The guy did something right.

[Invader3K]

This thread makes me sad.

[RockCoCougars]

This team needs a bullpen transplant before I'm even going to think about getting my undies in a bunch over the manager.

[logan82]

You can forgive a manager for the pen when it stinks like it does this year. The bunting and other meddling with the offense on the other hand is inexcusable.

[endaround]

Last season he hit Carlos Gomez 2nd the overwhelming majority of his starts.

Last season he thought Kameron Loe could get lefties out, despite 4 years of evidence he couldn't.

Last season he thought Felipe Lopez was a better option than Taylor Green.

Last season he thought Casey McGehee was a better option than Taylor Green or anyone else.

Last season he thought that every playoff game should be managed just like a regular season game.

 

I guess I cannot understand why you thought he was a good manager last year. Last year, everything went right, and the talent overwhelmed his bad decisions. Yost was just as bad.

 

I miss Macha.... but wait, the players hated him. Go look at the two teams he had, and the fact that they won 76 and 78 games.

 

The guy did something right.

 

Pretty sure "players" means Ryan Braun.

[Oldcity]

Yost is the worst manager I've ever seen. Not even Roenicke would IBB Howard with Shouse to face Burrell.

 

I'm completely happy with the decision to pull Greinke yesterday. Would have been fine with it an inning earlier. These games mean nothing now. Greinke had already regained his full value. There was nothing left to gain.

[Jaylyn]

Underperforming starters, injuries, some bad luck, some questionable manager calls, all played a part in the teams demise but, it was Melvin that put this group together and even he cannot be totally blamed.

[TURBO]

Question is, would Yost have started Kotsay in CF, in one of the most important games this franchise has ever played? (with Gomez and Morgan on the bench)

[Oldcity]

Yost definitely didn't bunt as much, I'll give you that, but his bullpen mismanagement was second to none.