Braves acquire Ryan Dempster from Cubs [Or Not? Reply #23]

[ninja33]

Is Delgado really a 'prospect' anymore? He's been with the Braves for most of the season. For a young 'fireballer', he really doesn't throw that hard, nor does he have an out pitch that can consistently miss a bat. He also has a penchant for walking guys, and when he gets hit, he generally gets hit hard. I wouldn't say that he's a fly ball pitcher per se, but he has that kind of stuff which wouldn't be a good thing in Wrigley.

 

Do you consider (or did you about 2 months ago before they each had a chance to debut) Peralta, Thornburg, and to a lesser extent Fiers prospects? Because Delgado is younger than each of them. And has made 24 MLB starts. And his ERA is under 4 in those starts. His fastball averages 92, which I would agree isn't a "fireballer", but it is still good velocity. And he has over 7 K/9 so far this year, which isn't a stellar number but it shows he can miss bats. I will agree the walks could be a problem, but again he is 22. If he NEVER improves from the pitcher he is right now (unlikely for a 22 year old), then the cubs just got a guy who can put up an ERA of 4 for very cheap for the next 5-6 years. And that's if he, at the age of 22, does not improve.

 

The bottom line here is that almost universally everyone is gushing over how this is the best trade ever. Do people really think that the Braves G.M. is that dumb? My guess is that Delgado was seen by him as the most movable of the Braves pitching prospects, and he was probably right. As for the Cubs, this is really a no lose situation for them because I keep seeing the terms 'Rental' and 'Top 50' thrown about. If Delgado pans out it becomes a steal, if he flames out, oh well they tried. In that sense, it's probably a win for the Cubs, don't get me wrong....but not as big a win as people are making it out to be.

 

I do not believe I have read one person declare this "the best trade ever". But if we want to get into that discussion, as well as one about "is the braves GM that dumb?" perhaps we should look at the last time he rented a player for half a season.

[nate82]

I think this deal is beneficial for both teams, as is the case more often than not. Delgado's ceiling is probably more as a 2/3 just looking at his profile, but even if he ends up as a dependable back of the rotation guy, it's a pretty good return for half a season of Ryan Dempster pitching out the string.

 

This is a good trading partner for the Cubs but on the reverse it would be a bad trading partner for the Brewers. The Braves were not going to give up Teheran in a deal for Greinke which leaves the Brewers with a very uninspiring pieces. If the Brewers would have traded Greinke to the Braves and only got Delgado and another prospect not named Teheran it would have been a very bad and poor trade by Melvin.

[pretendastronaut]

Word is Dempster is in Pittsburgh, in a Cub uniform still.

[hawing]

Count me as unimpressed with Delgado. From what I've seen of him, he doesn't seem to have very good stuff or command.

I'll admit to knowing nothing outside this thread about Delgado, but ever since the Jose Capellan experiment, I've been wary of any pitching prospect the Braves are willing to give up.

[RockCoCougars]

I do not believe I have read one person declare this "the best trade ever". But if we want to get into that discussion, as well as one about "is the braves GM that dumb?" perhaps we should look at the last time he rented a player for half a season.

 

I assume that you are talking about the Texiera deal which was horrible for the Braves. At the same time, they've won a lot more then they've lost when it comes to trading away the right 'prospects'. I'm not saying that Delgado is horrible, I'm just saying that he probably has the least upside of the Braves pitching prospects. I get the feeling that some people here would have been happy getting him back as the key piece of a deal for Greinke and I just don't see it.

 

Do you consider (or did you about 2 months ago before they each had a chance to debut) Peralta, Thornburg, and to a lesser extent Fiers prospects? Because Delgado is younger than each of them.

 

Fiers is no longer a 'prospect' to me, but Peralta and Thornburg (at this point) are. I don't really get excited about Delgado's age. He's been in organized ball now for six years, and still has control issues. I'd probably be more forgiving if he was a year out of college or even if he was a lefty, but he's going to have to make a huge leap in command to be successful. I just don't see it

 

Again, this is a no lose situation for the Cubs. Maybe I didn't see the 'best trade ever' quote verbatim, but people are gushing about this one all over the net. All that I see is .5 vs. 5.5 and Rental vs. Top 50. Obviously the Braves have more risk in this move, but they are OK with that because they want a vet to help them make a postseason run. The Cubs have little at stake. If Delgado sucks it's OK because Dempster was just a rental.

[TooLiveBrew]

All that I see is .5 vs. 5.5 and Rental vs. Top 50.

 

And all that I see from you lately is "prospects suck! people who value or attempt to value them are pie-in-the-sky dreamers!"

[RockCoCougars]

Count me as unimpressed with Delgado. From what I've seen of him, he doesn't seem to have very good stuff or command.

I'll admit to knowing nothing outside this thread about Delgado, but ever since the Jose Capellan experiment, I've been wary of any pitching prospect the Braves are willing to give up.

 

Exactly. Outside of Wainwright and Jason Schmidt I can't think of one pitcher that the Braves surrendered in a deal that turned out to be pretty good for the long haul (actually I think there is another that is slipping my mind right now), and the Braves have moved a TON of young pitching over the past 20 years.

[trwi7]

For a young 'fireballer', he really doesn't throw that hard, nor does he have an out pitch that can consistently miss a bat. He also has a penchant for walking guys, and when he gets hit, he generally gets hit hard.

 

His average fastball is 92.0 mph. For comparison here are some other pitchers average fastballs. CC Sabathia 92.2, Johnny Cueto 92.2, Yovani Gallardo 91.8, Felix Hernandez 91.8.

 

He's also 22 and pitching in the majors. Not many guys are dominating the majors at age 22. Just because he's not dominating doesn't mean he's not a good prospect or that he won't get better. That's the part you don't seem to understand. Younger players generally tend to get better. Amazing, I know.

[Fear The Chorizo]

wasn't Pedro Feliz part of the Teixeira trade with the Rangers a few years ago?

[ninja33]

Fiers is no longer a 'prospect' to me, but Peralta and Thornburg (at this point) are. I don't really get excited about Delgado's age. He's been in organized ball now for six years, and still has control issues. I'd probably be more forgiving if he was a year out of college or even if he was a lefty, but he's going to have to make a huge leap in command to be successful. I just don't see it

 

So ignore his success so far at the MLB level in spite of those control issues. A guy like Delgado would not be my ideal centerpiece in a Greinke trade, but I would have taken it. I think he has more value than the draft pick from Greinke walking. I would not want Doug Melvin to make that trade today, but if it was July 31 and it was the best offer he had seen (and Greinke hadn't resigned obviously) then yes I would take it. Ideally with a few other pieces thrown in. Even if Delgado doesn't develop into a superstar (or a #2 starter, which seems to be his ceiling), there is a lot of value in a guy getting paid very little putting up an ERA around 4....which is what he has done so far.

[trwi7]

wasn't Pedro Feliz part of the Teixeira trade with the Rangers a few years ago?

 

Neftali. Pedro Feliz was the awful infielder.

 

Matt Harrison is okay too. Career 4.14 ERA, 4.20 FIP, 4.30 xFIP and the last two years he's had ERA's of 3.39 and 3.02, FIPs of 3.52 and 3.57 and xFIPS of 3.85 and 4.03.

[ninja33]

wasn't Pedro Feliz part of the Teixeira trade with the Rangers a few years ago?

 

*Neftali.

 

And Matt Harrison.

[monty57]

The Braves were not going to give up Teheran in a deal for Greinke

 

And you know this how? Trades are not made on a spreadsheet. They are made when an offer is made and accepted. If the Braves wanted Greinke more than Dempster, they would have to decide if they wanted him enough to give up Teheran. Maybe they'd rather have Dempster for Delgado than Greinke for Teheran, but maybe not. Unfortunately, Melvin did not force them to make that decision, because he's waiting for Greinke to decide whether or not to accept a contract while the Cubs are starting to make moves.

 

There's no reason Greinke should get several weeks to decide what he's going to do, when that time should be used by Melvin to work the best trade. Force him to either accept the deal or reject it so that the Brewers can get on with planning their future.

[ninja33]

Count me as unimpressed with Delgado. From what I've seen of him, he doesn't seem to have very good stuff or command.

I'll admit to knowing nothing outside this thread about Delgado, but ever since the Jose Capellan experiment, I've been wary of any pitching prospect the Braves are willing to give up.

 

Exactly. Outside of Wainwright and Jason Schmidt I can't think of one pitcher that the Braves surrendered in a deal that turned out to be pretty good for the long haul (actually I think there is another that is slipping my mind right now), and the Braves have moved a TON of young pitching over the past 20 years.

 

The Braves current GM (Frank Wren) didn't trade either of those guys. But as we've mentioned, he did trade Neftali Feliz and Matt Harrison.

[Fear The Chorizo]

wasn't Pedro Feliz part of the Teixeira trade with the Rangers a few years ago?

 

*Neftali.

 

And Matt Harrison.

 

Your right, my Felizes weren't properly organized!

 

Also, kind of pointless to be citing the long line of Braves pitching prospects that didn't pan out after being traded without mentioning that it happened under John Scheurholz's reign as Braves' GM. The current GM actually has traded a bunch of solid arms in recent years for deadline deals.

[SRB]

I'm not an expert on scouting prospects and don't claim to be, so I tend to defer to Baseball America with the caveat that no prospect evaluations should be taken as the gospel. But a pitcher they had in their top-50 who has had a modicum of success in the majors? Come on, that's a huge return.

 

Optimist: this increases the market return for pitching rentals, and we can ask for more for Greinke now.

 

Pessimist: the one team that was willing to give up a top pitching prospect for a rental is now off the market because Melvin has waited too long.

[RockCoCougars]

All that I see is .5 vs. 5.5 and Rental vs. Top 50.

 

And all that I see from you lately is "prospects suck! people who value or attempt to value them are pie-in-the-sky dreamers!"

 

Absolutely not, I prefer the term 'prospect worship'.

 

My issues as of late involve the fact that, until Saturday, I was still of the thought the Brewers had a chance to be competitive this season. I also had hope that Grienke was amenable to signing an extension, and that has also faded. Though I'm OK with selling (even Grienke) at this point, the issues related to most of the Brewer pieces having low to no value and the fact that teams seem unwilling to part with top prospects remain.

 

I hate to be a Debbie Downer raining on the Prospect Parade here, but let's just say that I think that this team is much further away than a Delgado and Zach Lee (or whoever) from competing in the next few years if all the free agents defect....I think that the Brewers will have to get extremely lucky with both their few in house prospects and the inevitable 'vet free agent' signings to compete. I would have been very underwhelmed if the Brewers had traded Grienke to the Braves with Delgado coming back as the main piece.... I'd prefer to let ZG him walk and take the draft pick, if it came to that. I'd definitely rather trade him for multiple 'toolsy' guys in the low minors at this point than for someone like Delgado. I'd rather see a long term approach, because I don't see this team competing over the next few years without ZG.

[trwi7]

I'd prefer to let ZG him walk and take the draft pick, if it came to that.

 

[sarcasm]Yes, because Seid has been so successful as scouting director that obviously makes the most sense.[/sarcasm]

[RockCoCougars]

wasn't Pedro Feliz part of the Teixeira trade with the Rangers a few years ago?

 

Neftali. Pedro Feliz was the awful infielder.

 

Matt Harrison is okay too. Career 4.14 ERA, 4.20 FIP, 4.30 xFIP and the last two years he's had ERA's of 3.39 and 3.02, FIPs of 3.52 and 3.57 and xFIPS of 3.85 and 4.03.

 

Those are two that I forgot, but I still think that I'm missing another one.

[nate82]

 

And you know this how? Trades are not made on a spreadsheet. They are made when an offer is made and accepted. If the Braves wanted Greinke more than Dempster, they would have to decide if they wanted him enough to give up Teheran. Maybe they'd rather have Dempster for Delgado than Greinke for Teheran, but maybe not. Unfortunately, Melvin did not force them to make that decision, because he's waiting for Greinke to decide whether or not to accept a contract while the Cubs are starting to make moves.

 

Because the Braves have stated they were unwilling to give up a significant piece for a rental. They obviously saw Delgado as expendable and not a significant piece if they are willing to give him up for Dempster. I do not see why the Braves would have given up Teheran for Greinke when they could just give up Delgado for Dempster.

 

As for Delgado I see him more like a right handed version of Manny Parra which means like every pitching prospect in baseball they could take many different directions. The out come for both Parra and Delgado early in their careers looked (looks for Delgado) good. I still wouldn't want a package to be centered around Delgado though that type of a deal would have been a Melvin type of a trade.

[monty57]

I do not see why the Braves would have given up Teheran for Greinke when they could just give up Delgado for Dempster.

 

You could be absolutely correct. We'll never know because Melvin didn't force them to make that decision.

[ninja33]

I do not see why the Braves would have given up Teheran for Greinke when they could just give up Delgado for Dempster.

 

You could be absolutely correct. We'll never know because Melvin didn't force them to make that decision.

 

do you know that for a fact?

[JohnBriggs12]

A couple years ago, the D-Backs got Daniel Hudson for a rental of Edwin Jackson. Delgado might not be in Hudson's class, but the thinking of teams involved is essentially the same. In hindsight before this season that was a steal for the D-Backs, but the Sox were in a race and didn't trust the young pitcher and Jackson pitched well for them. Problem was, they still missed the playoffs, Jackson signed with Cards and they lost a fine young controllable arm in Hudson who helped them into the playoffs in 2011, but now is out after TJ surgery.

[jjfanec]

I do not see why the Braves would have given up Teheran for Greinke when they could just give up Delgado for Dempster.

 

You could be absolutely correct. We'll never know because Melvin didn't force them to make that decision.

 

do you know that for a fact?

 

Exactly. We have NO idea what went down. We have NO idea what would have been offered for Greinke. We have NO idea if Melvin asked for Teheran. And we have NO idea if Atlanta was even interested in Greinke.

[fondybrewfan]

Well hopefully Grienke has a good start tomorrow which re-establishes his trade value. If Dempster can get Delgado than I see no reason that Grienke couldn't get Olt (So long as Grienke shows he is healthy)

 

Just one deal needs to get done this trading season to set the price. If it is indeed a straight Demp for Delgado swap than this really favors the Brewers (except for the fact of taking ATL out of the hunt). Still plenty of teams with good prospects to target.