The Bullpen - Would You Make Henderson the Closer

[RockCoCougars]

Without looking at the stats, the only teams that I've seen with pens in the same ballpark of bad as the Brewers this season would be the Mets and the Cubs (I'm guessing that the Twins and the Tigers are near the bottom, but they aren't sniffing the Crew's pen). That said, I think that the exploits of the past month have put the Brewer bullpen in a class of their own.

[Ennder]

I think it is probably time to call up some younger arms and just get them some experience. None of these current guys should be back next year so why not see what we might have in the future.

[LouisEly]

Season is lost, so time to find out if Jim Henderson is, and Mitch Stetter is back to being, a major league pitcher. I'd include Rogers too, but he has been in such a groove lately as a starter I want him to try to ride that wave a little longer and can wait. Hell, bring up Wooten while you're at it and see if he can get major leaguers out. And getting dumped from the 40-man seems to have lit a fire under Kintzler's behind, maybe he can be something again.

 

People laughed at the guy who suggested Burgos might be called up this year, but right now I'm pretty open to that idea.

[MNBrew]

.... should not be back next year and I would be okay with them all being gone as of tomorrow.

 

Veras

Loe

Parra

Rodriguez

 

Trade all of them now just for salary relief and call up people from Nashville. They cannot be any worse.

 

AMEN!!!!

 

Melvin's seemingly inevitable moves here are as crucial as the Greinke situation. Why? Because it's the GM's job to improve the team's personnel situation.

 

Doing nothing would be a completely unacceptable course of action. Besides any ramifications on the Greinke situation, I'm glad Attanasio was at tonight's game b/c it just may ensure the necessary BP moves get made. I await news on the BP no less anxiously and with almost a greater sense of urgency -- b/c Greinke deal or not, this BP has to be improved.

[TheCrew07]

What if Mark A is actually behind some of the more foolish contracts Melvin has handed out? Being a good financier doesn't mean he's a good judge of what's best for his baseball team. I would argue that evaluating pitching isn't exactly Melvin's strength and by extension nor is it a strength of the Brewers organization either.

 

It doesn't make any sense to waste resources shoring up the bullpen in 2012. I could care less what happens from here on out, the only thing that truly matters is hitting a HR on the Grienke trade. Tha player(s) from that trade need to pan out and be productive... I wouldn't mind seeing Hand, Henderson, and Sanchez get a shot in the pen at some point, but it doesn't have to be until September.

 

Regardless the rotation for 2013 and 2014 should be the primary concern, then worry about the bullpen. If the rotation is going to stink in 2013 then the Brewers might as well unload Hart too because what good are the 3 extra wins he'll provide if we're below .500 again?

[adambr2]

What if Mark A is actually behind some of the more foolish contracts Melvin has handed out? Being a good financier doesn't mean he's a good judge of what's best for his baseball team. I would argue that evaluating pitching isn't exactly Melvin's strength and by extension nor is it a strength of the Brewers organization either.

 

It doesn't make any sense to waste resources shoring up the bullpen in 2012. I could care less what happens from here on out, the only thing that truly matters is hitting a HR on the Grienke trade. Tha player(s) from that trade need to pan out and be productive... I wouldn't mind seeing Hand, Henderson, and Sanchez get a shot in the pen at some point, but it doesn't have to be until September.

 

Regardless the rotation for 2013 and 2014 should be the primary concern, then worry about the bullpen. If the rotation is going to stink in 2013 then the Brewers might as well unload Hart too because what good are the 3 extra wins he'll provide if we're below .500 again?

 

I've somewhat took the position, ever since the Suppan signing, that Mark A. takes the rein in certain traditional GM decisions.

 

Mark A. is a great owner, but he needs to step back and just be the owner and not the GM. I think there are times when it is hard for him not to, and I think there are times when he's made Melvin look like a pretty bad GM as a result when he's probably really not.

 

Of course, this is just my theory, I don't think we've ever actually had proof in our faces that Mark A. is behind most of the organizational decisions.

[slappzilla]

Has the last two nights supported the thread titles claim or what?

 

What if Mark A is actually behind some of the more foolish contracts Melvin has handed out?

foolish contracts?

 

Like who?

[Ennder]

Suppan and Gagne are the only truly foolish contracts. There are others that are somewhat questionable or just didn't work out but those are the only ones that were just awful on paper.

[slappzilla]

I knew those guys (and I assumed Hall) would be brought up.

 

The good contracts he's signed far far far out weigh the bad ones. No GM is perfect.

 

Melvin is a good GM.

[JayZZ755]

Without looking at the stats, the only teams that I've seen with pens in the same ballpark of bad as the Brewers this season would be the Mets and the Cubs (I'm guessing that the Twins and the Tigers are near the bottom, but they aren't sniffing the Crew's pen). That said, I think that the exploits of the past month have put the Brewer bullpen in a class of their own.

 

Brewers are the worst in relief losses and WHIP. They are third worst in ERA, Mets and Houston are worst.

 

Generally, less runs are scored in the late innings. MLB overall, the innings with the fewest runs are 9th, 8th, 2nd, and 7th. Brewers have given up the most runs in the 3rd, followed by the 9th and 8th. There have been complaints about the Brewers not scoring late, but generally all teams have this problem.

 

Mets' worst inning is the 7th. They have lost 10 games where they were ahead in the 7th, which is worse than the Brewers. However, they are better in the 8th and 9th than the Brewers in both ERA and losses. Mets have also been about .500 in their tie games, whereas the Brewers have been below .500 in tie games in almost every inning.

 

Astros have a bad overall staff, so their bullpen isn't really any worse than the rest of it.

[LouisEly]

"Regardless the rotation for 2013 and 2014 should be the primary concern, then worry about the bullpen."

 

I believe that was the thought for this year too, and look how that turned out.

[gregmag]

"Regardless the rotation for 2013 and 2014 should be the primary concern, then worry about the bullpen."

 

I believe that was the thought for this year too, and look how that turned out.

So you're saying what? That we shouldn't worry about filling out the rotation? That the bullpen is more important than the rotation? Or that the rotation won't in fact be a problem, which frees us up to worry about the bullpen? The third option at least makes sense on its own terms, though I can't see how it's true just yet. The other two make no sense.

 

Our bullpen this year has been world-historically awful. But if any part of your team is that bad, it will sink you. It's not like swapping the relative success rates of our rotation and bullpen this year would make us good. That would just mean that the collapse came from somewhere else, and I bet the collapse would have been worse -- because the rotation is, in fact, more important than the bullpen.

 

I love the idea of trading most of our current pen and bringing up young guys to see what they can do in relief. But the reality is that relief performance is extremely hard to predict. Our pen, at the beginning of the year, looked decent on paper. I don't really see how you can say we neglected the pen. Axford and Rodriguez were lights out last year. Loe, Estrada, Parra, and even Dillard all seemed to be in the right roles. Swapping out Hawkins / Saito for Veras looked like a falloff, but Veras had some positives in his record, and Hawkins / Saito only threw 75 innings combined in 2011 anyway. Nobody credibly predicted they would all crater at once (all but Estrada, who only hurt the pen because he had to leave it), just like nobody had credibly predicted how good the pen was going to be in 2011.

 

The last thing I want to see us do is panic and overspend on relievers this offseason. No Linebrink trades, no Riske signings. Axford, I think, will learn from this year and come back strong. For the rest, we should look at our own young guys, collect castoff arms in the offseason, and decide who looks good, maintaining depth in AAA so that we can adjust on the fly. I also wonder about our coaching, but I don't know enough about that to make any claims.

[endaround]

Keep in mind half the guys who were supposed to be there to replace guys who fell off weren't there due to injury or other reasons.

[TooLiveBrew]

The Mets released Miguel Batista today. I wonder if he might get picked up by the Crew.

[slappzilla]

His numbers are similar (as bad) to what Livan's were when the crew grabbed him.

[LaprilOne]

Can Bill Hall Pitch?

[gregmag]

Can Bill Hall Pitch?

He did, in fact, pitch an inning for Boston in 2010. He didn't allow a baserunner. It is actually possible that we could somehow do worse.

[markedman5]

You know things are going bad for RR when the manager who believes in "He's the 8th inning guy....he's the closer" has finally thrown up his hands and said I give up

 

 

Adam McCalvy ‏@AdamMcCalvy

#Brewers going closer by committee, RRR said. Everyone's in play, including crafty vet Livan Hernandez. Not kidding. Quotes to follow.

[RockCoCougars]

You know things are going bad for RR when the manager who believes in "He's the 8th inning guy....he's the closer" has finally thrown up his hands and said I give up

 

 

Adam McCalvy ‏@AdamMcCalvy

#Brewers going closer by committee, RRR said. Everyone's in play, including crafty vet Livan Hernandez. Not kidding. Quotes to follow.

 

I might have to pick up Livian in fantasy. He can't be worse than the others. Maybe he will do a '97 Doug Jones impersonation and start blowing guys away with his 85 MPH cheese.

[And That]

Brewers going closer by committee, RRR said. Everyone's in play, including crafty vet Livan Hernandez. Not kidding. Quotes to follow.

 

I knew it was pretty much the white flag when we signed Livan - and I still keep forgetting that he's even on the team - but I did not think the season would ever take this turn. Wow.

 

I guess if he closes a bunch of games, we could trade him in August for something. What a nugget.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Haudricourt was on the D List and they mentioned Melvin's theory on relievers...one bad year, one good one...reversion to the mean. Doug has always found some interesting scrap heap guys over the years. It begs the question...is this year's garbage bullpen actually a group that could rebound next year? There's no shortage of garbage to choose from.

 

Ax is cheap and can still rebound.

Parra is only a year removed from surgery and has been moderately effective at times.

Loe can still work as a ROOGY.

Veras seems to have too many miles on him...same with KRod, but at the right price do you keep them?

A complete overhaul may be asking a lot. Maybe a Rogers or Thornburg can contribute and a couple cheaper FAs.

 

I wonder...would anyone play Melvin's theory on these guys beyond Axford?

[logan82]

Loe can still work as a ROOGY

Sure he can but that is not how our manager will use him.

[Funketown]

I do believe that Axford will turn it around. Loe is a solid pen contributor so long as he faces more than a typical % of RHP, and I think most of us agree on that. Parra and Veras are marginal MLB players at this point and I expect both to be in the 4-4.5 ERA range going forward.

[slappzilla]

Keep Ax and Parra.

 

Take the others out back behind the shed and put them down.

[xisxisxis]

Keep Ax and Parra.

 

Take the others out back behind the shed and put them down.

 

Keep Parra? The career era of >5, WHIP 1.63, BB/9IP >4.5 in almost 500 IP Manny Parra? The only time Manny was an asset to the team he spent the year on the DL. He'd be the first one in my list, i just can't see how looking at his career as a whole how anyone wouldn't

 

1) throw up in their mouth

2) wonder what photos of Melvin he has; and

3) want him gone yesterday.

 

He's in his year 29 season he has consistenly walked too many people, has crappy stuff with a fastball that isn't fast enough to make up for an almost complete lack of movement. he ain't young with potential, he's past any prime you could see, and he's topped out as a terd. I'd keep Loe before Parra and I have an irrational dislike for Loe....