The Combined 'We're Trading Greinke' Thread (part 1)

[narwhalattack]

Deep inside I have a bad feeling that if Melvin was to trade Greinke, he would trade for "proven" mediocre major league veterans, or at least a bunch of mediocre major leaguers whose sole purpose is to fill in for the injured Brewers players.

[paul253]

Deep inside I have a bad feeling that if Melvin was to trade Greinke, he would trade for "proven" mediocre major league veterans, or at least a bunch of mediocre major leaguers whose sole purpose is to fill in for the injured Brewers players.

 

While I don't think he'd do that it wouldn't surprise me. But even Melvin has to see how barren the system is. Even with the Jungmanns and Bradleys and Thornburgs and Nelsons it ranks among the worst in baseball. If he trades Greinke and doesn't get a young player I think most hardcore fans will call him out on it.

[HiAndTight]

If Greinke is shopped Melvin better offer him to ALL contenders and drive up the bidding, The Brewer really need to get a future leaguer back. Where was Melvin on Daniel Hudson and Gio Gonzalez or Trevor Cahill for that matter, UGH

 

 

Seriously?

 

Hudson was offered up for Prince when Prince had two years left. He was trying to get him, but wanted more and the White Sox wouldn't give more. So he was exactly where he should have been.

 

Where was he on Cahill and Gonzalez? Ummm..using some common sense and not trading away Thornburg and two of our other top prospects(at least) to acquire either.

 

Those are three players that would have been ridiculous for the Brewers to have traded for when they were on the market or to have accepted the Chicago deal.

[HiAndTight]

Deep inside I have a bad feeling that if Melvin was to trade Greinke, he would trade for "proven" mediocre major league veterans, or at least a bunch of mediocre major leaguers whose sole purpose is to fill in for the injured Brewers players.

 

 

I don't know how to say this without coming off a bit arrogant, but I personally find this to be ridiculous.

 

We shall see if Melvin trades Greinke at all, and if he does, if he trades for short term replacements requiring only mediocre players in return because that would make him a moron.

 

How many handles does TCO7 have on here?

 

And for those of you who watch the Brewers, Melvin's been on a couple times this year, most recently about two weeks ago when he stated that Thornburg could easily move up to the big leagues, but you have to consider long term considerations. He went on to talk about how the system is void of position prospects, and how the most important thing is to rebuild the system.

 

So do if you think that Grienke is going to be traded for the likes of Jerry Hairston Jr., Lyle Overbay, a #5 pitcher, then again,you must really think of him as a moron. Which I just don't understand. He's been at the helm of the Brewers resurgence from nearly 16 years of being completely irrelevant and has made some great trades. And even the trade that didn't work out great for us, didn't work out great for the other teams either, ie, we haven't given up superstars in virtually any trade we've made with the possible exception of Nelson Cruz who was put on waivers and every single team passed on, and Brett Lawrie, who...as it seems, most don't share the same opinion I do that it was a terrible trade anyway. So...

[HiAndTight]

Getting back a little more on topic. Detroit calls and offers Castellanos straight up for Greinke. Do you take it (assuming we are out of contention)?

 

 

Yes, I think I do. But again, given Detroits situation, a guy like Axford or K-Rod could have a ton of value to him. So could Corey Hart.

 

I'm trying to think bigger. Salary cutting wise, and top tier prospects in return. We know their owner is desperate to win RIGHT NOW and has a ton of money.

 

Does Grienke+Axford+Hart get us Castellanos+Jacob Turner?

 

Turner becomes our top prospect, Castellanos our top position prospect, and both are very young for their leagues(Turner's in the big leagues right now, but he probably shouldn't be and Greinke would take his spot.

 

Turner's a guy who throws 92-94 with a very good curve and a solid change who is projected to be a big GB pitcher at the big league level. Rick Porcello with more K's is the report I've read on him.

 

Add those two, plus the fact that we'd completely be tanking for the rest of this year and would likely end up with a top 10 pick next year, our picks this year, possibly comp picks as it's probably worth it to offer Marcum arbitration given the fact that this will be his last big deal and I don't think he'd turn down 4 years at 55 or so million for 1 year at 13.5, and our farm system could be one of the best next year.

 

 

 

And by the way, for those of you declaring our farm system the among the worst in the game, can we possibly take a look at what's actually happening with OUR farm system right now? It's not one of the worst in the game. It's probably around 14-16 at this point, and with a trade like this would be in the upper 5-6 at the least IMO.

[Eye Black]

Getting back a little more on topic. Detroit calls and offers Castellanos straight up for Greinke. Do you take it (assuming we are out of contention)?

 

If the Tigers made the call and offered that deal straight up, it would be worth trying to get a young pitcher added to the deal. Ultimately it would be tough to turn down if Greinke for Castellanos was their final offer.

 

The three series immediately after the All-Star Break are against division rivals (Pirates/Cardinals/Reds). If the Brewers are double-digit games behind in both the division and the wild card race after that stretch ends (July 22), then I believe it will be time to seriously discuss with each contender what acquiring Grienke for 12-14 regular season starts and potential playoff starts is worth to them. Outside of dream scenarios where Greinke could be used to bring in a Profar/Machado, a player like Castellanos offers much of what I believe the Brewers should be looking for in a Greinke trade. It offers no guarantees, but if a prospect the caliber of Castellanos continues to develop as expected he has the potential to become an integral part of the teams future core group of players.

 

I don't want to see Greinke go (and I am all for re-signing him if the price isn't astronomical). If the team doesn't believe they will have a good shot of re-signing him prior to Free Agency and they are out of contention at the end of July I would much prefer seeing them make a deal for Greinke if it is the RIGHT offer. I believe the right offer is receiving a prospect that projects to be an above average MLB talent with an upside that stretches as high as being an All-Star caliber player. I think there are very few position players currently in the Brewers system that we could honestly say, "that guy could be an MLB mainstay at his position for 8-10 years". If the Brewers can acquire that type of position player in a mid-season trade for Greinke then I would be all for it. I would also be rooting for them to still make a Free Agency pitch to Greinke, although I have no idea how well received that would be.

[paul253]

It's not one of the worst in the game. It's probably around 14-16 at this point, and with a trade like this would be in the upper 5-6 at the least IMO.

 

I have to disagree with this. The top 3-4 prospects are very strong (Thornburg, Gennett, Jungmann and Bradley) Then you have some guys who are either doing well this season for the first time (Nelson, Burgos) or guys who are just doing ok (Schafer, Peralta, Hall). After the top 6 or 7 guys there is a huge dropoff in my opinion and the underwhelming performances of Gindl and Peralta don't help matters. I do think this draft will help matters, but they need to think big and not settle for mid ceiling guys who may get to the bigs faster. We are probably not the worst system, but I'd say definitely bottom third.

 

Does Grienke+Axford+Hart get us Castellanos+Jacob Turner?

I would have to think Detroit would take this deal. I would take it in a heartbeat. That might be a win-win type deal. This deal reminds me a lot of the Willis/Cabrera for Maybin/Miller deal. I'm not sure if it's still the same GM but Greinke and Axford would be major gets for Detroit.

 

All that being said, I can't imagine Melvin would trade Axford.

[nate82]

I would prefer a trade of Greinke for Profar or Machado. I don't think the Orioles will trade Machado and I don't think they will be that aggressive to get Greinke for an in season trade. I do see the Orioles as being a team interested in signing Greinke in the off season. I am not sure how big their interest will be but they will be one of the teams that will be going hard for Greinke in the off season.

 

The Phillies look like they are coming back alive again though they still have a bunch of holes offensively they have to fill right now. I don't see the Phillies trading Hamels at all. When looking at the trade market there won't be that many top notch pitchers out there that will be better than Greinke to trade for but there is also only a few teams that have the talent to land Greinke (Rangers, Orioles, Rays, and Tigers). I could see either the Tigers or the Rangers trading for Greinke and I believe the Rangers are going to be the more aggressive team and they will give up Profar and another B level prospect. I would prefer a Profar and Christian Villanueva trade for Greinke. This gives the Brewers two very young infielders. I would prefer getting a pitching prospect back but if the Brewers could get both Profar and Villanueva in a trade for Greinke that would really be a steal. The reason I think the Rangers would be willing to let go of both Profar and Villanueva is because they are both blocked. Villanueva is blocked by Olt and Beltre though the Rangers could possibly move Olt to 1B and have Villanueva at 3B when Beltre's contract runs out.

[Kelbysdaddy]

Can castellanos play short? We're already overpaying A-ram and have a good 3b playing 1b. I like that kid alot. I met him when he was with w Michigan, really nice kid and a hell of a ballplayer but i dont know if he is who We should be targeting.

[paul253]

Green can always play second base too if we decide to move Weeks. Unfortunately with A-Ram (which I still say was a panic move and is now looking more and more like it's going to backfire) at third and Weeks at second with Gennett coming up, Green's window may be closing before it was even open (sounds a lot like Gamel doesn't it?) With Ishikawa now on the DL there is no reason Green shouldn't be playing every day, although we all know Brooks Conrad will be starting against lefties. I'd go as far as saying that you move ARam to 1st and hand 3rd to Green until he proves he can't handle it. That would solve your first base issue for next year as well and Gamel could come back and be the super little guy playing all the corner positions.

 

But regarding Catellanos. As others said you get the best player you can. He's still probably two years away so we have some time with him in the minors but he is a very talented player and I wouldn't use Green as an excuse to pass him up.

[ninja33]

I would prefer a trade of Greinke for Profar or Machado. I don't think the Orioles will trade Machado and I don't think they will be that aggressive to get Greinke for an in season trade. I do see the Orioles as being a team interested in signing Greinke in the off season. I am not sure how big their interest will be but they will be one of the teams that will be going hard for Greinke in the off season.

 

I think most would prefer this, but I really don't see the Rangers trading Profar for 14ish starts of Greinke. I understand they've come so close recently that they'll want to do something to get over the top.....but would you make that trade if you were the Rangers?

 

I think Castellanos is a much more realistic target. I think when people talk about trading for him they're not saying they'd rather have him than Profar/Machado, it's just that it's the next best option because those guys are likely not on the table. I think a guy like Castellanos or Christian Yelich from Miami. The Marlins probably don't need pitching at the moment, but they will once Josh Johnson inevitably goes on the DL. The Marlins also have a decent number of high-risk/high-reward type power arms in the lower part of their system that could be thrown in as well.

[nate82]

Green can always play second base too if we decide to move Weeks. Unfortunately with A-Ram (which I still say was a panic move and is now looking more and more like it's going to backfire) at third and Weeks at second with Gennett coming up, Green's window may be closing before it was even open (sounds a lot like Gamel doesn't it?) With Ishikawa now on the DL there is no reason Green shouldn't be playing every day, although we all know Brooks Conrad will be starting against lefties. I'd go as far as saying that you move ARam to 1st and hand 3rd to Green until he proves he can't handle it. That would solve your first base issue for next year as well and Gamel could come back and be the super little guy playing all the corner positions.

 

But regarding Catellanos. As others said you get the best player you can. He's still probably two years away so we have some time with him in the minors but he is a very talented player and I wouldn't use Green as an excuse to pass him up.

 

1st Weeks is not going to be traded and second if he does get traded it is not going to be worth trading him, at best you are looking at a Hardy trade where you get a Gomez like player back in return if you are lucky.

 

Green is not that great of a prospect he is not an all star caliber player at best he is a platoon player he is not an everyday MLB player especially at the position he has been playing at (1B and 3B). If Green could play SS or even 2B his offensive production would be OK but he doesn't so his offense is below average to poor at 1B and 3B. I am definitely not passing up any prospect to take over for Green or to take playing time from Green. To put it in perspective Gamel's floor is what Green's ceiling is as an MLB player.

 

The players that have value that will bring back value for the Brewers are Axford, Greinke, Hart, and Marcum. Every other player is going to bring back a C or lower level grade prospects.

 

I wonder if the Brewers could swing a trade with the Orioles where the Orioles can basically do a salary dump of Markakis along with prospects Nicky Delmonico, and Parker Bridwell for Hart and Marcum. The Orioles get a productive RF in Hart and a #3 starter. Markakis's contract is very ugly though and after Machado, Bundy, and Schoop the Orioles are rather thin with prospects.

 

I still believe the best deal the Brewers are going to get for Greinke is going to come from the Rangers.

[nate82]

I think most would prefer this, but I really don't see the Rangers trading Profar for 14ish starts of Greinke. I understand they've come so close recently that they'll want to do something to get over the top.....but would you make that trade if you were the Rangers?

 

I do see the Rangers doing this as Profar is expendable. Andrus is going to get locked up by the Rangers and will make Profar very much available. Plus the Rangers already have Kinzler locked up at 2B so Profar can't really move there either and it doesn't really make sense to move him to 3B. So if I were the Rangers I would definitely look at adding Greinke for about 14 starts as that is going to make them stronger in a push for the playoffs and beyond.

[HiAndTight]

I would prefer a trade of Greinke for Profar or Machado. I don't think the Orioles will trade Machado and I don't think they will be that aggressive to get Greinke for an in season trade. I do see the Orioles as being a team interested in signing Greinke in the off season. I am not sure how big their interest will be but they will be one of the teams that will be going hard for Greinke in the off season.

 

The Phillies look like they are coming back alive again though they still have a bunch of holes offensively they have to fill right now. I don't see the Phillies trading Hamels at all. When looking at the trade market there won't be that many top notch pitchers out there that will be better than Greinke to trade for but there is also only a few teams that have the talent to land Greinke (Rangers, Orioles, Rays, and Tigers). I could see either the Tigers or the Rangers trading for Greinke and I believe the Rangers are going to be the more aggressive team and they will give up Profar and another B level prospect. I would prefer a Profar and Christian Villanueva trade for Greinke. This gives the Brewers two very young infielders. I would prefer getting a pitching prospect back but if the Brewers could get both Profar and Villanueva in a trade for Greinke that would really be a steal. The reason I think the Rangers would be willing to let go of both Profar and Villanueva is because they are both blocked. Villanueva is blocked by Olt and Beltre though the Rangers could possibly move Olt to 1B and have Villanueva at 3B when Beltre's contract runs out.

 

 

If the Brewers could get Profar in a trade for Greinke that would be a real steal. And if they would, I'd be thrilled with that. But I think the B prospect would have to come from us, not them.

 

The Phillies could be interesting though. Dominick Brown+Trevor May.

 

Brown is a fallen prospect for the Phillies, but still extremely talented. May is a top 70 prospect coming into the year, and is striking out about 1 per inning in AA at 22 years old in AA. Struck out 208 in 158 innings last year and has 550 in 430 innings pitched in his minor league career, can throw in the mid 90's (not sure what he tops out at, though probably wouldn't be hard to find) and is extremely durable thus far.

 

Brown is a former top 5 prospect. He's fallen again...quite a bit, not putting up great numbers in AAA.

 

 

I don't know, it's difficult. The more you read about Profar, the more you see he's truly a once in a generation type player. Machado doesn't seem to be as talented(though...still elite), but if I'm the O's, why the hell would I trade the #3 ranked current prospect when I have the #1 in Bundy(Profar being #2) and a very nice core to build around in Weiters one of the top catchers in the game, Adam Jones, Markakis, several very good young pitchers. Perhaps not aces other than Bundy who has had the best start for a prep player I've ever seen(as in followed as it happened).

 

They'd be crazy to give up a potential superstar SS for a short term starting pitcher. Better off signing him in the off-season.

[nate82]

 

 

If the Brewers could get Profar in a trade for Greinke that would be a real steal. And if they would, I'd be thrilled with that. But I think the B prospect would have to come from us, not them.

 

The Phillies could be interesting though. Dominick Brown+Trevor May.

 

Brown is a fallen prospect for the Phillies, but still extremely talented. May is a top 70 prospect coming into the year, and is striking out about 1 per inning in AA at 22 years old in AA. Struck out 208 in 158 innings last year and has 550 in 430 innings pitched in his minor league career, can throw in the mid 90's (not sure what he tops out at, though probably wouldn't be hard to find) and is extremely durable thus far.

 

Brown is a former top 5 prospect. He's fallen again...quite a bit, not putting up great numbers in AAA.

 

 

I don't know, it's difficult. The more you read about Profar, the more you see he's truly a once in a generation type player. Machado doesn't seem to be as talented(though...still elite), but if I'm the O's, why the hell would I trade the #3 ranked current prospect when I have the #1 in Bundy(Profar being #2) and a very nice core to build around in Weiters one of the top catchers in the game, Adam Jones, Markakis, several very good young pitchers. Perhaps not aces other than Bundy who has had the best start for a prep player I've ever seen(as in followed as it happened).

 

They'd be crazy to give up a potential superstar SS for a short term starting pitcher. Better off signing him in the off-season.

 

I think you are under valuing Greinke by a lot. The Brewers would definitely get Profar for Greinke without adding a B type prospect. Just look at what the Rangers gave up to get Lee for one season and no the idea of getting draft picks wasn't really on the Rangers minds when they traded for Lee. I could see the Brewers getting the same type of players that the Mariners got back in return for trading Lee. I believe Ryan is going to be very aggressive this year and get someone that will be the #2 behind Darvish and there will be no other pitcher that is going to be on the market that is going to fit that bill. Garza comes to mind but the Cubs seem to have this fascination that they are going to get two A type prospects in return for Garza and I believe the Cubs are going to ask for Perez and Profar for Garza and I see the Rangers turning that down and going with Greinke if the Brewers accept Profar and a B type prospect for Greinkie.

[brettac1]

Profar would be awesome. He's going to be a really good player at a premium position.

[HiAndTight]

 

 

If the Brewers could get Profar in a trade for Greinke that would be a real steal. And if they would, I'd be thrilled with that. But I think the B prospect would have to come from us, not them.

 

The Phillies could be interesting though. Dominick Brown+Trevor May.

 

Brown is a fallen prospect for the Phillies, but still extremely talented. May is a top 70 prospect coming into the year, and is striking out about 1 per inning in AA at 22 years old in AA. Struck out 208 in 158 innings last year and has 550 in 430 innings pitched in his minor league career, can throw in the mid 90's (not sure what he tops out at, though probably wouldn't be hard to find) and is extremely durable thus far.

 

Brown is a former top 5 prospect. He's fallen again...quite a bit, not putting up great numbers in AAA.

 

 

I don't know, it's difficult. The more you read about Profar, the more you see he's truly a once in a generation type player. Machado doesn't seem to be as talented(though...still elite), but if I'm the O's, why the hell would I trade the #3 ranked current prospect when I have the #1 in Bundy(Profar being #2) and a very nice core to build around in Weiters one of the top catchers in the game, Adam Jones, Markakis, several very good young pitchers. Perhaps not aces other than Bundy who has had the best start for a prep player I've ever seen(as in followed as it happened).

 

They'd be crazy to give up a potential superstar SS for a short term starting pitcher. Better off signing him in the off-season.

 

I think you are under valuing Greinke by a lot. The Brewers would definitely get Profar for Greinke without adding a B type prospect. Just look at what the Rangers gave up to get Lee for one season and no the idea of getting draft picks wasn't really on the Rangers minds when they traded for Lee. I could see the Brewers getting the same type of players that the Mariners got back in return for trading Lee. I believe Ryan is going to be very aggressive this year and get someone that will be the #2 behind Darvish and there will be no other pitcher that is going to be on the market that is going to fit that bill. Garza comes to mind but the Cubs seem to have this fascination that they are going to get two A type prospects in return for Garza and I believe the Cubs are going to ask for Perez and Profar for Garza and I see the Rangers turning that down and going with Greinke if the Brewers accept Profar and a B type prospect for Greinkie.

 

 

And I think you're vastly underrating Profar. Again, I've repeated myself time and time again, but name ONE other current big league SS who projects to be similar to Profar?

 

A guy who has a cannon for an arm, great range=GG caliber defender, great knowledge of the zone who projects to be a .300+ hitter and carry an OBP near .400....

 

And yet you REALLY think that the Rangers will not only give HIM up, but ALSO give us a Jimmy Nelson type prospect?

 

 

If that's truly the case, than Greinke will be pitching in Arrlington. Profar right now is dominating at 19 years old at AA ball. Law in his updated prospect rating has Profar #2 behind only Dylan Bundy(which I think everyone knows what he's doing in the minors right now as a 19 year old prep arm with a 0 ERA and a .223 Whip and 40 K's in 30 IP).

 

Nobody is underestimating Greinke. If people had read ANYTHING I'd written about him, I think he's one of the best pitchers in the game and could just as easily turn any number of teams into WS contenders. He's the most valuable piece on the trade market and could easily turn out to be like Sabathia was for us in '08.

 

That doesn't mean the Rangers are going to give up a once in a generation type pitcher PLUS a very good pitching prospect in return for 4 months of him.

 

Profar himself has more value than the package we gave up for Sabathia a few years ago.

 

I'd also seriously like to know how you know that the Rangers thought of getting draft picks in return wasn't on their minds when they traded for Lee? I think that's ridiculous. How two first round picks wouldn't come into play is beyond me.

 

But on that, Justin Smoak wasn't the prospect that Profar is, Beavan wasn't a top 100 prospect either. After that they got a guy that the Rangers almost snuck into the deal and the M's wanted to ship out ASAP, and a 4th prospect who was just a guy. Nobody special in Lawson.

 

And obviously they took into consideration they were going to get two picks in return for him. Again, if they didn't, their GM should have been fired as that's just plain ridiculous. It's like suggesting the Brewers didn't take into consideration they'd get two prsopects back for Sabathia. Both teams took that into consideration under the old rules unless they were just plain stupid. And as the Rangers and they're player development have shown, they're most certainly not.

 

 

 

The Brewers could probably get a package back for Greinke like the Rangers did, but I doubt they're going to get a guy who's as close to a can't miss future superstar at SS as you can get who's just 19 years old.

 

If they can...like I said, Greinke will be taking his talents to Arrlington. And as Bowden suggested...that doesn't mean we can't re-sign him in the off-season.

 

But there have been about 3-4 people who've told me I don't understand Greinke's trade value and cited trades in which the return was whatever player they were giving up, PLUS two first round picks.

 

Is it just POSSIBLE some people don't understand the value of Profar?

 

I hope you can come back here and tell me how wrong I was about this one. I just find it highly unlikely.

[RockCoCougars]

Lots of hype about this Profar. Shall we cast his HOF plaque now or shall we wait and see if the Rangers trade him so we know what hat to use? Looking at his stats, he's hardly dominating AA ball.... he's not even hitting .300. I get that he's 19 years old, but some guys peak early. He doesn't exactly have the frame of a power hitter either. Has anyone here even seen him play much? I don't think that a straight up deal for Greinke would be a steal for the Brewers by any stretch. Bottom line, I'm not going to get crazy over a guy who's never played a major league game just because people like Keith Law have him ranked high on one of their lists, because they've probably never watched him play much either.

[jerichoholicninja]

I don't know enough of Profar to make an comment on him but the Rangers have Andrus at SS and signed him through 2014. Andrus' defense is great but his offensive won't play anywhere else but short or second and they have a guy named Ian Kinsler there who's only 29 and signed through 2018. Maybe they could move Kinsler to 3rd and Andrus to second or something like that but the point I'm trying to make is they are going to have to make some decisions. Seems somewhat similar to a few years ago with Hardy and Escobar.

[HiAndTight]

Lots of hype about this Profar. Shall we cast his HOF plaque now or shall we wait and see if the Rangers trade him so we know what hat to use? Looking at his stats, he's hardly dominating AA ball.... he's not even hitting .300. I get that he's 19 years old, but some guys peak early. He doesn't exactly have the frame of a power hitter either. Has anyone here even seen him play much? I don't think that a straight up deal for Greinke would be a steal for the Brewers by any stretch. Bottom line, I'm not going to get crazy over a guy who's never played a major league game just because people like Keith Law have him ranked high on one of their lists, because they've probably never watched him play much either.

 

 

 

Ok then, so lets stop using prospect rankings, lets stop using scouting reports, lets stopping citing a players age in his respective league.

 

And lets speculate as to whether guys have ever seen a player play(because even if they did watch him play, they certainly couldn't have spoken to a number of scouts).

 

Profar dominated HiA, a pitchers league at age 18 by hitting .300/.390. If we had a guy like him in our system, the #2 or at absolute worst, the #3 prospect in the game, I'm sure we'd be signing the same tune.

 

 

I'm just curious if people can tell me how many times prospects rated as highly as Profar who lacks any doubt about his ability to stay at his current position have been traded for half a season of a pitcher, much less in addition to ANOTHER very good prospect?

 

Bowden thinks the Brewers can get two highly rated prospect and a third lower rated one. I think that's entirely possible. And I wouldn't settle for less. Other teams may not get the two prospects back, but the Brewers will, so obviously they have to account for that in their decision making.

 

 

But again, when we traded LaPorta, he was a good prospect without a true position playing in the OF, and then a relief pitcher, a good young CF'er who wasn't ranked anywhere near the top 100, and Zach Jackson, a nobody.

 

And in return, we assumed we'd get a 1st rounder and a 1st round supplemental pick back.

 

The asinine HOF comment though was spot on. Truly furthered the conversation......

 

 

Edit-By the way, I just took a look at his updated stats. REALLY Rock? Were you just waiting for his average to drop a tick below .300 in AA as a 19 year old so you could come on here and say, "he's not even a .300 hitter?"

 

No, he's a .298/.363 hitter at 19 years old in a pitchers league, and for a guy who doesn't "project to hit many HR's," he's hit 12 last year at age 18, and is sluggling .500 this year(.497 so I don't hear how he's "not even slugging .500).

 

I'd also like to know how YOU know that his frame doesn't "look," like he can add power to it? He's 5'11 165 and he's already shown power. But more to the point, he doesn't need to hit 30 HR's. 15-20 is just fine.

[brettac1]

Kinsler moving to 3B would be my guess as to what they will do.

[HiAndTight]

Kinsler moving to 3B would be my guess as to what they will do.

 

 

My guess is they'll move Andrus for him in a year or two when he gets closer to Free Agency, during which time Profar will probably be the top prospect in baseball.

 

I can't see them moving Kinsler when they have Beltre playing and playing well there, and I would guess Andrus has enough value at SS that they wouldn't waste it by playing him at 2B.

 

 

But hey, I hope to god we can solve that problem for them. They'd certainly be fine just re-signing Andrus and having Kinsler stay put as well as Beltre and look for a 1B. I just don't think they'll put Profar on the market unless they're offered the moon. And Greinke is a great starter, but he's not the "moon," for 4 months.

[RockCoCougars]

The asinine HOF comment though was spot on. Truly furthered the conversation......

 

 

Edit-By the way, I just took a look at his updated stats. REALLY Rock? Were you just waiting for his average to drop a tick below .300 in AA as a 19 year old so you could come on here and say, "he's not even a .300 hitter?"

 

You are the one who referred to him as a 'once in a generation type' and 'as close to a can't miss future superstar at SS as you can get', hence the HOF comment. I have not been waiting for anything on his average to fall- honestly I don't know much about him, but his stats at AA are not jaw dropping by any means.

 

name ONE other current big league SS who projects to be similar to Profar?

 

Call me crazy... but I'd take Starlin Castro in a heartbeat. He's only a few years older and already proven that he can hit big league pitching.

 

You do have a point about Texas trading Profar. If he's half as good as you think that he is, there is no way.

[nate82]

 

And I think you're vastly underrating Profar. Again, I've repeated myself time and time again, but name ONE other current big league SS who projects to be similar to Profar?

 

A guy who has a cannon for an arm, great range=GG caliber defender, great knowledge of the zone who projects to be a .300+ hitter and carry an OBP near .400....

 

And yet you REALLY think that the Rangers will not only give HIM up, but ALSO give us a Jimmy Nelson type prospect?

 

 

If that's truly the case, than Greinke will be pitching in Arrlington. Profar right now is dominating at 19 years old at AA ball. Law in his updated prospect rating has Profar #2 behind only Dylan Bundy(which I think everyone knows what he's doing in the minors right now as a 19 year old prep arm with a 0 ERA and a .223 Whip and 40 K's in 30 IP).

 

Nobody is underestimating Greinke. If people had read ANYTHING I'd written about him, I think he's one of the best pitchers in the game and could just as easily turn any number of teams into WS contenders. He's the most valuable piece on the trade market and could easily turn out to be like Sabathia was for us in '08.

 

That doesn't mean the Rangers are going to give up a once in a generation type pitcher PLUS a very good pitching prospect in return for 4 months of him.

 

Profar himself has more value than the package we gave up for Sabathia a few years ago.

 

I'd also seriously like to know how you know that the Rangers thought of getting draft picks in return wasn't on their minds when they traded for Lee? I think that's ridiculous. How two first round picks wouldn't come into play is beyond me.

 

But on that, Justin Smoak wasn't the prospect that Profar is, Beavan wasn't a top 100 prospect either. After that they got a guy that the Rangers almost snuck into the deal and the M's wanted to ship out ASAP, and a 4th prospect who was just a guy. Nobody special in Lawson.

 

And obviously they took into consideration they were going to get two picks in return for him. Again, if they didn't, their GM should have been fired as that's just plain ridiculous. It's like suggesting the Brewers didn't take into consideration they'd get two prsopects back for Sabathia. Both teams took that into consideration under the old rules unless they were just plain stupid. And as the Rangers and they're player development have shown, they're most certainly not.

 

 

 

The Brewers could probably get a package back for Greinke like the Rangers did, but I doubt they're going to get a guy who's as close to a can't miss future superstar at SS as you can get who's just 19 years old.

 

If they can...like I said, Greinke will be taking his talents to Arrlington. And as Bowden suggested...that doesn't mean we can't re-sign him in the off-season.

 

But there have been about 3-4 people who've told me I don't understand Greinke's trade value and cited trades in which the return was whatever player they were giving up, PLUS two first round picks.

 

Is it just POSSIBLE some people don't understand the value of Profar?

 

I hope you can come back here and tell me how wrong I was about this one. I just find it highly unlikely.

 

I believe the Rangers will and because they already have a great SS in Andrus. Andrus and Castro right now are the best SS's in the majors. I don't care how good or how great Profar maybe he could be a bust once he hits the majors if he ever does (injuries can and may happen). If you already have someone that is great in Andrus why not deal for something that can help you now?

 

The Rangers will not lose much sleep over losing Profar it is all nice that he is a highly ranked prospect but he can become a bust as much as he can become a superstar. Baseball is weird like that and Smoak was ranked as high as Profar was at one time even Gamel was ranked almost as high as Profar is currently ranked. That doesn't mean they are the same though I understand the talent is different between Profar and those two players. The Brewers getting Profar and a B level prospect is very much fair in asking for a return of Greinke. To me Nelson isn't even a B level prospect he is a B-/C+ level prospect. The player I mentioned earlier is more along the lines of a B-/C+ level prospect who is very similar to Taylor Green prospect wise probably more along the lines of a C+ level prospect with a ceiling that he could reach of your typical B level prospect.

[HiAndTight]

 

And I think you're vastly underrating Profar. Again, I've repeated myself time and time again, but name ONE other current big league SS who projects to be similar to Profar?

 

A guy who has a cannon for an arm, great range=GG caliber defender, great knowledge of the zone who projects to be a .300+ hitter and carry an OBP near .400....

 

And yet you REALLY think that the Rangers will not only give HIM up, but ALSO give us a Jimmy Nelson type prospect?

 

 

If that's truly the case, than Greinke will be pitching in Arrlington. Profar right now is dominating at 19 years old at AA ball. Law in his updated prospect rating has Profar #2 behind only Dylan Bundy(which I think everyone knows what he's doing in the minors right now as a 19 year old prep arm with a 0 ERA and a .223 Whip and 40 K's in 30 IP).

 

Nobody is underestimating Greinke. If people had read ANYTHING I'd written about him, I think he's one of the best pitchers in the game and could just as easily turn any number of teams into WS contenders. He's the most valuable piece on the trade market and could easily turn out to be like Sabathia was for us in '08.

 

That doesn't mean the Rangers are going to give up a once in a generation type pitcher PLUS a very good pitching prospect in return for 4 months of him.

 

Profar himself has more value than the package we gave up for Sabathia a few years ago.

 

I'd also seriously like to know how you know that the Rangers thought of getting draft picks in return wasn't on their minds when they traded for Lee? I think that's ridiculous. How two first round picks wouldn't come into play is beyond me.

 

But on that, Justin Smoak wasn't the prospect that Profar is, Beavan wasn't a top 100 prospect either. After that they got a guy that the Rangers almost snuck into the deal and the M's wanted to ship out ASAP, and a 4th prospect who was just a guy. Nobody special in Lawson.

 

And obviously they took into consideration they were going to get two picks in return for him. Again, if they didn't, their GM should have been fired as that's just plain ridiculous. It's like suggesting the Brewers didn't take into consideration they'd get two prsopects back for Sabathia. Both teams took that into consideration under the old rules unless they were just plain stupid. And as the Rangers and they're player development have shown, they're most certainly not.

 

 

 

The Brewers could probably get a package back for Greinke like the Rangers did, but I doubt they're going to get a guy who's as close to a can't miss future superstar at SS as you can get who's just 19 years old.

 

If they can...like I said, Greinke will be taking his talents to Arrlington. And as Bowden suggested...that doesn't mean we can't re-sign him in the off-season.

 

But there have been about 3-4 people who've told me I don't understand Greinke's trade value and cited trades in which the return was whatever player they were giving up, PLUS two first round picks.

 

Is it just POSSIBLE some people don't understand the value of Profar?

 

I hope you can come back here and tell me how wrong I was about this one. I just find it highly unlikely.

 

I believe the Rangers will and because they already have a great SS in Andrus. Andrus and Castro right now are the best SS's in the majors. I don't care how good or how great Profar maybe he could be a bust once he hits the majors if he ever does (injuries can and may happen). If you already have someone that is great in Andrus why not deal for something that can help you now?

 

The Rangers will not lose much sleep over losing Profar it is all nice that he is a highly ranked prospect but he can become a bust as much as he can become a superstar. Baseball is weird like that and Smoak was ranked as high as Profar was at one time even Gamel was ranked almost as high as Profar is currently ranked. That doesn't mean they are the same though I understand the talent is different between Profar and those two players. The Brewers getting Profar and a B level prospect is very much fair in asking for a return of Greinke. To me Nelson isn't even a B level prospect he is a B-/C+ level prospect. The player I mentioned earlier is more along the lines of a B-/C+ level prospect who is very similar to Taylor Green prospect wise probably more along the lines of a C+ level prospect with a ceiling that he could reach of your typical B level prospect.

 

 

 

 

At no time was Gamel EVER ranked anywhere nearly as high as Profar is who has overtaken Machado by most experts opinions and is currently the #2 prospect. Neither was Smoak, though he was highly rated.

 

I think I would place Nelson as a solid B prospect at this time. That he's throwing in the mid 90's, has a plus slider and is refining his change, and that all of that matches up with his outstanding numbers elevate him from B-/C+ level. I believe since the start of the season his value has to have risen.