Dodgers interested in Aramis Ramirez

[paul253]

Why do people take every rumored word about possible, hypothetical, maybe-happening trades as 100% truth?

 

Nobody is suggesting it is 100% truth. Just responding to the report. That's what we do on this board.

[HiAndTight]

I want no part of Dee Gordon. He's fast but he doesn't really get on base to be able to use the speed, kind of like Gomez. But at least Gomez has some power and is one of the best defensive CF in the game. I'd ask for Lee or Eovaldi, maybe Gould. After that, I'm not really interested in anyone. Although I guess it would be nice to get rid of some of that contract, I still wouldn't give him away. Obviously the Dodgers have money so the contract isn't a big deal to them but I'd be willing to eat some of it to get a better player back.

 

 

 

He's a 24 year old SS(just turned 24 at the end of April, so he'll start next season at 24) with blazing speed, and great range, and put up a .303/.353 career line in the minors, all for a contract you have constantly bemoaned as being a terrible one.

 

Yet you want no part of him for that contract that...based on what you've said, sounds like you believe it is of negative value?

[HiAndTight]

Would they do an Aramis for Hairston swap? The Dodgers have nothing to speak of for prospects.

 

 

I think if the Brewers got Evoldi for Ramirez straight up, no money exchanging hands, that'd be a HUGE win for the Brewers...especially if they decide to be sellers which John Axford may have finally done last night.

 

I doubt the Dodgers give up anyone or anything without the Brewers paying 8 or so million which makes that a pretty reasonable contract(which is why the word "albatross," is tossed around a bit too freely with those who still believe we're in the old days of the Brewers finances when Robin Yount's 3.2 million dollar deal was the largest in the league and the Brewers topped the Yankees in team payroll at about 20 million dollars).

 

Evoldi, though his big league K rates haven't been great, he's 22, throws in the mind 90's and has great stuff. If nothing else, he's just a power arm you throw into the system and hope it comes out as a starter, but at least you have a pretty safe bet as a late inning reliever.

[Raw Biz]

I want no part of Dee Gordon. He's fast but he doesn't really get on base to be able to use the speed, kind of like Gomez. But at least Gomez has some power and is one of the best defensive CF in the game. I'd ask for Lee or Eovaldi, maybe Gould. After that, I'm not really interested in anyone. Although I guess it would be nice to get rid of some of that contract, I still wouldn't give him away. Obviously the Dodgers have money so the contract isn't a big deal to them but I'd be willing to eat some of it to get a better player back.

 

 

 

He's a 24 year old SS(just turned 24 at the end of April, so he'll start next season at 24) with blazing speed, and great range, and put up a .303/.353 career line in the minors, all for a contract you have constantly bemoaned as being a terrible one.

 

Yet you want no part of him for that contract that...based on what you've said, sounds like you believe it is of negative value?

 

Don't know what you're talking about bro, I don't think I ever said the ARam contract was terrible or that I didn't want any part of it. Its basically exactly market value. However, if the Brewers aren't going to be contending next year (and at this point I don't think they will), then they don't need to be paying market value at that price. As I've said, I would part with ARam for something decent but I wouldn't just give him away just to be rid of the contract.

 

As for Gordon, I don't really care about blazing speed if you can't get on base. Yeah he had a .350 OBP in the minors but a lot of that is tied to his BA. If that BA drops, his OBP goes with it. A guy like Weeks, on the other hand, can bat under .200 but still have that OBP over .300. He has no power. And Gordon hasn't done much so far. I know he's still young but I just don't see it. A lot of times these toolsy speed guys never develop those other skills. As for his defense, he seems average to below-average to me.

 

Would I take Gordon for ARam? Possibly. I just think they could do better because ARam actually has good value. He should still be a legit middle-of-the-order bat for the duration of his contract.

[reillymcshane]

major league pitching can be different things to different people. it can mean an existing veteran. or perhaps a player ready to be in the big leagues. we don't really know what 'major league pitching' means to dougie.

 

I argue you get the best ceiling guy you can, even if he's not in the majors or super close to the majors. but i think the team thinks the crew can be competitive sooner than later - and want someone who can help now or next year.

[TheCrew07]

"Major League Pitching" could mean almost anything but given Melvin's trade and FA history it's not surprising that many people including myself are concerned with what that specifically means. I would guess it means he wants a major league ready starter.

 

I would do Lee for Eovaldi straight up in a heartbeat if that was the offer. However I'm worried that we'd be getting Capuano(33), Harang(34), or Lilly(36) back.

 

Here's what was written about Eovaldi over the winter:

Eovaldi fell to the 11th round of the 2008 draft because he had Tommy John surgery as a high school junior and made a strong commitment to Texas A&M. The Dodgers weren't scared off and signed him for $250,000. After a solid but unspectacular start to his pro career, he took off in 2011, dominating Double-A and making his big league debut at age 21. Eovaldi has a power arsenal, led by a heater that works at 94-98 mph with good downhill angle and occasional late life. His fastball touched triple digits when he came out of the bullpen in the majors. He has a wrist wrap in his arm action that has led to inconsistency, but he did a better job in 2011 of staying over the rubber longer and allowing his arm to clear, helping his fastball command. Eovaldi ditched his curveball after 2010 and developed an 85-91 mph slider that's a plus pitch with tilt and late movement at its best. His changeup is fringy but good enough to keep hitters honest. His key going forward will be to throw more strikes. Some scouts believe Eovaldi fits best as a two-pitch, late-inning reliever, but Los Angeles will keep him a starter. He'll vie for a spot in the big league rotation in spring training.

 

Lilly is under contract this year and next, 12:$10.5M, 13:$12M

Cappy has this year and next plus an option, 12:$3M, 13:$6M, 14:$8M mutual option ($1M buyout)

Harang has a similar contract, 12:$3M, 13:$7M, 14: mutual option between $7M and $8M ($2M buyout)

[HiAndTight]

"Major League Pitching" could mean almost anything but given Melvin's trade and FA history it's not surprising that many people including myself are concerned with what that specifically means. I would guess it means he wants a major league ready starter.

 

I would do Lee for Eovaldi straight up in a heartbeat if that was the offer. However I'm worried that we'd be getting Capuano(33), Harang(34), or Lilly(36) back.

 

Here's what was written about Eovaldi over the winter:

Eovaldi fell to the 11th round of the 2008 draft because he had Tommy John surgery as a high school junior and made a strong commitment to Texas A&M. The Dodgers weren't scared off and signed him for $250,000. After a solid but unspectacular start to his pro career, he took off in 2011, dominating Double-A and making his big league debut at age 21. Eovaldi has a power arsenal, led by a heater that works at 94-98 mph with good downhill angle and occasional late life. His fastball touched triple digits when he came out of the bullpen in the majors. He has a wrist wrap in his arm action that has led to inconsistency, but he did a better job in 2011 of staying over the rubber longer and allowing his arm to clear, helping his fastball command. Eovaldi ditched his curveball after 2010 and developed an 85-91 mph slider that's a plus pitch with tilt and late movement at its best. His changeup is fringy but good enough to keep hitters honest. His key going forward will be to throw more strikes. Some scouts believe Eovaldi fits best as a two-pitch, late-inning reliever, but Los Angeles will keep him a starter. He'll vie for a spot in the big league rotation in spring training.

 

Lilly is under contract this year and next, 12:$10.5M, 13:$12M

Cappy has this year and next plus an option, 12:$3M, 13:$6M, 14:$8M mutual option ($1M buyout)

Harang has a similar contract, 12:$3M, 13:$7M, 14: mutual option between $7M and $8M ($2M buyout)

 

 

I recall Melvin once trading a budding FA, and one that wasn't nearly the caliber of CC or Greinke for a veteran pitcher, and that was Cordero. Most people understand that does not constitute a "trend." And bringing FA into it in an attempt to enhance your argument is irrelevant.

 

He's made two long term signings of older starting pitchers. Wolf who's been a successful signing and Suppan who hasn't.

 

And I think this "most people," stems from two things. A-You constantly repeating it, and B-reports that the market for Greinke, just as it was for Prince, isn't as impressive as most on here thought.

[Hate those Rodents]

I could certainly see us being interested in Gordon. I doubt LAD wants to trade him though. I highly doubt they'd view Hairston as more than a day a week SS type at this point. They'll want to keep him.

 

I bet they'd take Wolf back though. He pitched well there and loved LA. Had they not had their ownership issues, he'd probably still be pitching there. Throwing him in to the deal might help get us Eovaldi.

[slappzilla]

I've seen nothing reported since the initial report of this. I have a feeling it's dead in the water. Seemed too good to be true to begin with, and like myself and many others have said, if the Dodgers were really interested in Aramis, Doug would be a moron to not throw him to them for anything at all, even if they just took his contract.

[monty57]

There was a quote on MLBTraderumors.com yesterday where the Dodgers were saying they were willing to add salary because they'd rather spend too much and have a good team than not spend enough. It really sounds to me like the new owners want to prove to the world that they're a "player." I don't know how much validity there was to the Ramirez rumors, but I would bet that the Dodgers wouldn't blink at adding his contract to their payroll. I still think they'd offer the "Jed Lowrie package" for Ramirez. That was Z. Lee and Gould.

 

The Brewers really need to decide quickly what they're going to do. If they're going to "sell," they need to decide who their core is going forward. Ramirez and Hart are both good players who could help the Brewers by playing for the Brewers next year or by being traded for younger, cheaper talent. I just hope Melvin has formulated a plan as to what the Brewers will look like going forward, and isn't just going to "wing it" by listening to offers, making a couple of trades and then patching things together in free agency this offseason.

[igor67]

No plan survives contact with the enemy, so to speak. Even though apparently there are almost 3 times as many buyers or sellers, teams still seem to be treating prospects like hunks of gold. If the best package for Greinke is a quantity for quality dump where the best player wouldn't even crack our top 10 then you are better off holding onto him and taking the pick. Even in the world where you dump everything not nailed down for the best player available you still eventually need to field a team. It's become to easy to just advocate the dump strategy in the abstract. In the real world GMs rarely can pull off making more than a handful of moves to reshape the talent on hand into a roster. Sure you have freely available guys, but that is who you fill out the roster with when your out of better options and if you have too many freely available guys your kind of short on the talent to be a good team. One can squint and think the GM can man-up and make some more trades or whatever to reassemble this talent, but we have now had a decade+ of GMs using this mode of thought and the number of trades that can be made in a single year hasn't increased a great deal. The reason is that trades are a time and socially intensive process.

[JohnBriggs12]

The Brewers are only 4 games back of the Dodgers right now so unless that gap widens between now and the end of July, I don't see them dealing Ramirez to LA.

[monty57]

No plan survives contact with the enemy, so to speak.

 

I guess where I was going is that I hope they're looking at guys like Hart, Ramirez, Morgan, Gomez, Gamel, Green, Gennett, Weeks, etc and saying "which of these guys are going to be part of our plans going forward and how do they fit in." I like the concept of building around a "malleable" core group. Determine who is important to the team going forward and build around them, but being open to trading former core pieces when new core pieces emerge. Not saying trade everyone at once, but rather continually trade off pieces when other pieces are there to replace them. We never did that, so now we're in a position where trading off multiple pieces at once is a viable alternative.

 

What do we do with Hart and Ramirez? If we are "going for it" next year, we are better off with both of them in the middle of the lineup, but that limits our flexibility elsewhere (financially) and doesn't "take advantage" of two of our better trade chips. If we're rebuiding, they are two good trade chips that could bring in young talent, but will really hurt our offense for next year. If we don't trade Hart, do we lose him for nothing after next year or do we extend him and how would that extension effect the future? If we don't trade Ramirez now, will teams trade for him later when he's owed $20MM for one year? Melvin should have had an "exit strategy" for Hart when he extended him and for Ramirez when he signed him, meaning he should have know what do we do if we're winning, and what do we do if we're losing, and he should have had an idea how and when they could be replaced. This isn't crystal clear, but it shouldn't be opaque. We got lucky getting Aoki, as Melvin seemed stunned when his million dollar bid won. However, that bit of luck makes trading Hart a real possibility, as we have a good replacement in RF playing for 10% the cost in RF and Gamel playing for 5% the cost at 1B. That said, I doubt Hart will be traded and instead we'll either trade him for little next year or lose him for nothing after next season while Gamel ends up being a bench bat... short-term thinking even when blessed with some luck.

 

While every piece may be obtained and dealt with separately, there has to be an overall plan, and Melvin should know how each of the individual pieces will fit into that plan before adding that piece. That way maybe we won't end up with a 20-year period without pitching or a complete lack of SS's in the system, but four MLB ready CF's. We won't have all of our decent prospects blocked in AAA until they're in their mid-to-late 20's. I believe that if Melvin had offered an extension to Greinke the day he traded for him, he could have locked him up right then & there. That seems like an obvious move if you have a good long-term plan in place. Add Greinke to be the long-term #1 guy and add Marcum as a short-term guy to win while we have Prince. Instead it seems like we added them to open a window and we'd worry about long-term extensions when the players are closer to free agency if we had the money and felt that would keep the window open. Adding guys without knowing how they fit into the long-term plan is what I (and I believe others) mean when we say "patching things together."

 

What Melvin does in the next couple of weeks could have a pretty big impact on where we'll be for the next few years. I don't know if it's in the best interest of the Brewers to trade Ramirez to the Dodgers for young pitching, but I would hope Melvin would know that, and would've prepared for this contingency before he ever signed him last offseason. The answer shouldn't be "we signed him for three years, so we have him for three years and we'll see where things are at then."

[endaround]

Greinke did not want to sign an extension his first year. So that is why it didn't happen.

[Kelbysdaddy]

If dm doesn't move soon I doubt wed get the pitching package wed all like for aram since they are likely getting dumpster and the cubs are looking for young pitching.

[monty57]

If dm doesn't move soon I doubt wed get the pitching package wed all like for aram since they are likely getting dumpster and the cubs are looking for young pitching.

 

MLBtraderumors says the Dodgers are not trading Zach Lee for "a rental like Dempster." If they were willing to trade Lee for Jed Lowrie, I'd want him as part of a Ramirez deal.

[RockCoCougars]

The Dodgers are sinking like a bag of bricks. Their lineup is brutal and they have some major issues with their pitching staff. I'll actually be surprised if they are over .500 at the end of the year.

[monty57]

The Dodgers are sinking like a bag of bricks. Their lineup is brutal and they have some major issues with their pitching staff. I'll actually be surprised if they are over .500 at the end of the year.

 

Which is probably why the new owners are thumping their chests telling everyone they'll take on big money to get good players. If they were to add Dempster and Ramirez, they would suddenly look a lot better. Los Angeles is a different world, and the owners want to prove they're part of it. If we get a chance to take advantage of this, I'm all for it.

[igor67]

Given our position guys and depth wouldn't Hart make more sense to deal to LA? They could use help at either corner, and I like the idea of putting together a replacement for Hart out of Morris, Green, Gamel, Schafer, and Gindl more than plugging Green in for Ramirez (much higher OBP).

[chuckiehacks]

Which is probably why the new owners are thumping their chests telling everyone they'll take on big money to get good players. If they were to add Dempster and Ramirez, they would suddenly look a lot better. Los Angeles is a different world, and the owners want to prove they're part of it. If we get a chance to take advantage of this, I'm all for it.

 

I feel like this kind of describes our owner as well (who is from LA), especially when it came to the Ramirez signing. "We lost Prince, we'll just go sign another slugger." This is part of the reason I don't think they'll trade him - he was their "big acquisition."

[Raw Biz]

Given our position guys and depth wouldn't Hart make more sense to deal to LA? They could use help at either corner, and I like the idea of putting together a replacement for Hart out of Morris, Green, Gamel, Schafer, and Gindl more than plugging Green in for Ramirez (much higher OBP).

 

I would like to trade Hart too but I'd wait until the offseason. I think Hart could bring a really good package and I don't think LAD would have the best. Honestly, if they were willing to part with Lee & Gould for Lowrie, I would think we could get at least Lee for ARam. I don't think Morris will be ready until 2014 so I'd trade ARam now and see what Green can do with some consistent PT. Then in the offseason you can ship out Hart and maybe get a 3B back if Green isn't up to par. Then hopefully Gamel is ready to go at 1B again in ST.

[monty57]

Which is probably why the new owners are thumping their chests telling everyone they'll take on big money to get good players. If they were to add Dempster and Ramirez, they would suddenly look a lot better. Los Angeles is a different world, and the owners want to prove they're part of it. If we get a chance to take advantage of this, I'm all for it.

 

I feel like this kind of describes our owner as well (who is from LA), especially when it came to the Ramirez signing. "We lost Prince, we'll just go sign another slugger." This is part of the reason I don't think they'll trade him - he was their "big acquisition."

 

Good call. I think Attanasio definitely has some "I'll show you" attitude, and I hope the shrewd money-manager in him wins that battle. This isn't about who has the biggest hat, it's about who has the most cattle. You don't get the most cattle by killing off the calves to make a bigger hat or by selling off all the cows to buy one big bull.

[monty57]

Given our position guys and depth wouldn't Hart make more sense to deal to LA? They could use help at either corner, and I like the idea of putting together a replacement for Hart out of Morris, Green, Gamel, Schafer, and Gindl more than plugging Green in for Ramirez (much higher OBP).

 

I would like to trade Hart too but I'd wait until the offseason. I think Hart could bring a really good package and I don't think LAD would have the best. Honestly, if they were willing to part with Lee & Gould for Lowrie, I would think we could get at least Lee for ARam. I don't think Morris will be ready until 2014 so I'd trade ARam now and see what Green can do with some consistent PT. Then in the offseason you can ship out Hart and maybe get a 3B back if Green isn't up to par. Then hopefully Gamel is ready to go at 1B again in ST.

 

I'm torn on both Hart & Ramirez, which is why I hope Melvin has a long-term plan laid out.

 

1) If we don't trade either, we'll have a good offense next year, but probably not the pitching to compete, and we'll lose Hart for nothing (1 comp pick) at the end of the year.

 

2) If we trade both, it would be hard to have a good team next year, but we could get a lot of young, inexpensive talent back that could really help us in the future.

 

3) If we only trade one, I don't know which one to hold onto. Hart is homegrown and less expensive, but he's gone after next season unless we extend him into his mid-30's. Ramirez is older and more expensive, but we have him for two years, so we could always trade him this time next year or even following the 2013 offseson.

[jerichoholicninja]

This isn't about who has the biggest hat, it's about who has the most cattle. You don't get the most cattle by killing off the calves to make a bigger hat or by selling off all the cows to buy one big bull.

 

I'm not sure if that is an incredibly stupid saying or incredibly genius. I tip my large, calf-free, hat to you.

[rickh150]

You can get a good look at a t-bone by....(Tommy Boy)